How do you pastor people who will not listen to the Pastor?

[BroRutledge]

Have you ever had a situation where you do all that you can do in prayer and in concern and in love to help a person who has asked for pastoral advice only to find that no matter what you say they will not listen?

The ministry is a powerful tool that God uses in the building of his glorious Church. Believe it or not, the pastor's words can be very important. God uses the pastor's voice many times in order to be heard. People who willl not listen to the pastor may be gambling with eternity.

God bless
BroRutledge

[nytxn1971]

I'm not a pastor, Bro. Rutledge, but I'm sure you're not alone in this area.

[ddc101]

Bro.Rutledge it all comes down to whether the person wants to be led by Gods Spirit or by their own flesh.
So many times Elder Cooper and I have shook our heads and shrugged our shoulders.
You spend hours in prayer and counseling and still the person follows after the desires of their own will.I have come to the understanding as of late that most people do not want answers they just want someone to listen.So we listen and let them talk and try to give biblical advice and then step back and wait.
Sister Linda Doty shared a good link to help pastors deal with some biblical counseling issues.I believe it it
www.biblical-counsel.org

This was a good sight for me to understand what true forgiveness really is and teach it to the church.Helping them overcome basic fleshly issues did a lot for many.One man could never speak to his ex wife without fussing and argueing.This teaching helped him deal with her and not be taken advantage of by the devil and his flesh.Another lady could not live for God successfully.This kind of teaching helped her to settle some unresolved issues.People are coming to us all hurting so badly.
If we can help them settle these issues then they can walk uprightly and not crawl all the time and beg for a bottle.I like the term empowerment.We need to empower people with the gospel of Jesus Christ.He has the answer for every need including emotional ones,health related issues and relationship issues.These seem to be the three biggies.Hope this helps someone

[bill]

Brother Rutledge,

Either you're a sheep or you're a goat !

[jbenjesus]

Bro. Rutledge,

You can only truly shepherd people who are willing to be shepherded. You really are not a shepherd to those who do not submit to God's anointing and authority on your life.

You can't force anyone to do anything. You can only give Godly counsel and advice.

The rest is in their hands.

Jesus has made all provision for us, but we need to respond with humility and surrender to obtain it.

They may come to you and ask for help. However, you have seen that there fruit is contrary to that action of coming for help. So you know in their heart, there really is no true surrender or submission, or even the intention of repentance.

In my experience, if there are those that do not live a surrendered, submitted, yielded, and humble life to "elders" and brothers, then most likely they are living the same way in their hearts before the Lord.

There is a problem with a lack of repentance in their life that does not allow the breakthrough they "so desperately desire".

Praying and making sure you are giving them the word of the Lord is our responsibility as ministers.

Sometimes we get emotionally involved and end up burdening ourselves unnecessarily with the responsibility for the change, but that burden falls solely on them - on each individual.

[pastorb]

Pastor Rutledge, You are not alone my brother, I had one tell me my job was just to preach to him and God would do the rest.

The woman he was living with was not his wife. They had a joint account that they paid their tithes out of but different last names, so I asked and I was right, and he didn't like that. So rather than get married they left the wrong way.

This is a terrible time where it seems with TBN, Radio, and everything else these people don't want to be sheparded and they don't feel they need to answer to any one as long as they can here the word they are alright never mind adhering to it.

[ddc101]

Pastorb,
Last year when my husband preached against fornication about half the members got up and never came back.We just had two return and repent but honestly its a shame.TV is full of people who have casual relationships.People are so influenced by this junk its pathetic.Some want to go to church just to ease their consciences but when the word gets a little to personal want to blame the man of God.What a shame.You have to preach what Thus saith the Lord without favoritism.Just keep on keeping on.
ddc

[survivor4christ]

I just heard the preacher today preach on not sugarcoating the gospel...

He preached against sexual immorality in the church...

The preacher said if you are shacking, sleeping around, swapping spouses...he said there is a 'sex demon' loose in the church today and no one wants to deal with it. Wants to sweep it under the rug, pretend it is not there and it will eventually go away...

He preached hard against this spirit.

This spirit has been unleashed upon the church b/c the Spirit of the Lord has been quenched in a lot of services. Also, many are not seeking the Lord the way that they should. Many are hungry for God but are not being taught, or receiving, the whole counsel of God from the ministers He has sent. when I say not receiving, I mean not receiving the deliverance that is available to them. They are so dysfunctional that they do not see their behavior as wrong or sinful, or they are in denial about where they are really at spiritually. Some are just plain disobedient, bound by their flesh, and do not believe they can be delivered so they settle for this life of bondage.

So God said b/c they loved not the truth, God would cause them to believe a strong delusion, a lie. Some are given over to a reprobate mind. Romans 1...

If they would only repent and turn from their wicked ways, God will heal and bless..and deliver!

I thank God that I turned around just in time!

Love, Sis. Wenona

[ddc101]

The word says the god of this world has blinded their minds.I believe that wholeheartedly.They are deceived and shamefully loving it.I believe if we would be looking into the face of Jesus Christ right now he would be either be crying or angry at the people parading around in America like the Isrealites at the foot of Mt.Sinai with the golden calf.Pure old Idolatry.sis.c

[bishop1]

[B]S H E E P - or - goats ?[/:confused:

" To Be OR Not To Be - That Is The Question."
A SAINT Or AIN'T

# 1 - A new convert is easy to pastor.
# 2 - A Holy Ghost 'filled' member is easy to pastor.
# 3 - A hungry soul is easy to pastor.
# 4 - A sincere person wanting to be right is erasy to pastor.
# 5 - Some step-children are easy to pastor. { step-child = a church member transfering from another church, - church hopper, -etc.}.

To Be Or Not To Be - That Is the Question.
- A SAINT that is -

Some years ago my wife and I decided to take a neighboring pastor out to eat. While we were enroute to my favorite 'Greek Restaurant' the neighboring pastor suddenly exclaimed " Oh No - There goes most of my church members right now !" I looked up just in time to see a truck, fully loaded with Goats, passing by.

I have been pastoring many many years and have always had the policy that "as long as you have breath you have hope". The ONLY UN-PARDONABLE SIN IS BLASPHEMING THE HOLY GHOST. In years of pastoring only 2 times have I ever had to dis-fellowship anyone {put out ot the local Assembly}. It was after much prayer and fasting. The Biblical decision was made for the betterment of the church, because of non-repentance, witchcraft {for rebellion is as of the sin of witchcraft}, iniquity and idolatry {and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry}, and a failure to get control of a gossiping tongue.

Sometimes you must prune the vine, cut out the diseased member, for the good of the body and the salvation of the church.

:(
http://www.acts238holinessorhell.com

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

"...for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam, and perished in the gainsaying of Core..."

How many are justified in their own belief system. It is only when they sense that their self-righteousness is exposed that they will turn on someone, as Cain did on Abel.
Others only seek a confirmation of their personal beliefs. They love to be called Christians, and feel justified because they belong to a 'church'. If no one agrees with them, they will just go somewhere else until they find a place that agrees with them.
Some will not take 'Ministering'. They are as Core: justifying their actions by stating that they too can 'hear' from God.
But praise be to the Lord that there are those "...more noble than those in Thesalonica..."

Brother Villa

[Webmaster]

Bro. Rutledge,

I have observed that the best way to deal with a situation like you have described is to speak the truth in love. The fact of the matter is, no matter how well you present your counsel, in this day and hour folks will do what they want to do.

The key is that you addressed the situation (s), spoke with love, but with firmness and no compromise. If they choose to do the opposite, you will at least know you did your dead level best to help them see a light in darkness.

I wish I could tell you that you will not feel dissapointed and hurt when people choose to walk against your counsel, but it is not the case. A true man of God will always feel that pang of sorrow when he sees one he cares for going down a road of hurt and destruction. The only comfort available is knowing you did your best, and the sweet peace that is only found in the Holy Ghost.

Of course, you already know this, you have had much more experience in pastoring than I have, I just thought I would ramble a little before I hit the hay!:D

Bro. Flemming

[shoe1234]

When I think of ministering to someone, or even of people in leadership in the church, I think of Phillipians 4:8.

Finally brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatosever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

[shoe1234]

And I also wanted to denote the fruit of the Spirit. I got a bit off track, but Phillipians 4:8 is on target as well.

Galatians 5:22-23

22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23
Meekness, temperance; against such there is no law.

[Pastor D]

Praise the Lord Everybody:
All of the posts were so insightful and true. In any event, all a pastor can do is preach, teach, pray, remain available and patient and allow God to work on the hearts of the people. One the most important things a minister can do is raise the spiritual level of the congregation so that people can vividly see themselves, repent and be delivered to that they can live for God. In our congregation, the most effective tool has been intensive prayer and fasting. In August, we went into a 40-day fast that blessed our church mainly because it caused people to change. Attitudes changes and with that actions changed as well. The end results was that souls were saved.

Inevitably, a pastor must recognize that people have to want to be led in order to be led. Some people arrive there immediately others over time. We cannot throw away people for fear we might discard someone just when they are ready to turn around.

A young man began attending our church four years ago. Having not grown up in Pentecost he came with a lot of questions and preconceived notions. He said that although he enjoyed the preaching, he did not see himself reaching out, crying or praying because he was not that "kind of person." The saints and I continued to encourage and pray for him. Over the last few weeks, God has truly been working him. During a prayer service a week ago, I discovered his weeping and calling on the Lord. I believe God will fill him soon. I have discovered others in my pastorate with similar stories and in every case people come at their own pace and according the prompting of the Holy Ghost. Some will not hear and there are cases when we must cut our losses and move one. That should be the exception and not the norm.

Pastor D

[Truthseeker]

Pastorb,
Last year when my husband preached against fornication about half the members got up and never came back.We just had two return and repent but honestly its a shame.TV is full of people who have casual relationships.People are so influenced by this junk its pathetic.Some want to go to church just to ease their consciences but when the word gets a little to personal want to blame the man of God.What a shame.You have to preach what Thus saith the Lord without favoritism.Just keep on keeping on.
ddc


Why would some leave over preaching against fornication? I don't get it. When they return, preach it again!

[Truthseeker]

I just heard the preacher today preach on not sugarcoating the gospel...

He preached against sexual immorality in the church...

The preacher said if you are shacking, sleeping around, swapping spouses...he said there is a 'sex demon' loose in the church today and no one wants to deal with it. Wants to sweep it under the rug, pretend it is not there and it will eventually go away...

He preached hard against this spirit.

This spirit has been unleashed upon the church b/c the Spirit of the Lord has been quenched in a lot of services. Also, many are not seeking the Lord the way that they should. Many are hungry for God but are not being taught, or receiving, the whole counsel of God from the ministers He has sent. when I say not receiving, I mean not receiving the deliverance that is available to them. They are so dysfunctional that they do not see their behavior as wrong or sinful, or they are in denial about where they are really at spiritually. Some are just plain disobedient, bound by their flesh, and do not believe they can be delivered so they settle for this life of bondage.

So God said b/c they loved not the truth, God would cause them to believe a strong delusion, a lie. Some are given over to a reprobate mind. Romans 1...

If they would only repent and turn from their wicked ways, God will heal and bless..and deliver!

I thank God that I turned around just in time!

Love, Sis. Wenona

Please don't tell me those things happen and ministers don't address it? Please!

If they won't repent, kick em out and let the church roll on!

[Felicity]

Have you ever had a situation where you do all that you can do in prayer and in concern and in love to help a person who has asked for pastoral guiedance only to find that no matter what you say they will not listen?

God bless
BroRutledge
Short answer: YES. Of course.

And we've watched many of them make huge mistakes, lose out with God and then have to deal with the aftermath -- even after they've seen the error of their ways and came back to God in repentance.

The way of the transgressor is HARD. :( But we can't control people. We preach the truth. Then they have to make the decision to do what's right or not.

[milady]

Have you ever had a situation where you do all that you can do in prayer and in concern and in love to help a person who has asked for pastoral guiedance only to find that no matter what you say they will not listen?

The ministry is a powerful tool that God uses in the building of his glorious Church. Believe it or not, the pastor's words can be very important. God uses the pastor's voice many times in order to be heard. People who willl not listen to the pastor may be gambling with eternity.

God bless
BroRutledge
All you can do is tell them the message God wants them to hear.It is their choice whether or not they listen to the message.

[ddc101]

Brother Rob,
You would be surprised at those involved in such that go to church and lift their hands and do it again.They can be found in First Corinthians and also in churches.lv sis.c

[simple1]

Please don't tell me those things happen and ministers don't address it? Please!

If they won't repent, kick em out and let the church roll on!Love suffereth long........Love covers a multitude of sins.........the wheat and the tares grow up together and God said he would do the separating

[Truthseeker]

Love suffereth long........Love covers a multitude of sins.........the wheat and the tares grow up together and God said he would do the separating

the paarable of the tares and wheat have nothing to do with immorality in the church. Sometimes we have to do the seperating according to Paul.

[simple1]

the paarable of the tares and wheat have nothing to do with immorality in the church. Sometimes we have to do the seperating according to Paul.A tare looks alot like the wheat but has no fruit, there are those in the church that look the part but bare no fruit because of sin in their lives this includes immorality. The sword of the Spirit, which is the word, will do the dividing.

[Truthseeker]

A tare looks alot like the wheat but has no fruit, there are those in the church that look the part but bare no fruit because of sin in their lives this includes immorality. The sword of the Spirit, which is the word, will do the dividing.


The parable of the tares and wheat speak of the world not the church. Go check it out.


BTW there is a thread called "immorality in the church" where we discussed handling immorality in the church. You can go check it out, I show scripturally the parable of the tares and wheat doesn't concern matters within the church.

[SisMilam]

Please don't tell me those things happen and ministers don't address it? Please!

If they won't repent, kick em out and let the church roll on!
hey ive heard that before. Where did you get that? O'm thinking its a song. So how does the rest go?

[Craigert]

The question I have in pastoring folks is - Whn you know someone is in error(not gross error but error nonetheless) Where do you leave it? A simple rebuke and then leave the rest for them? A continued instruction in that area? I have a man who refuses to attend on Sunday for what I consider not to ba a viable reason... Do I treat him as a member of GOD's family and the church even though he is in disobedience?

[Abigail4476]

The question I have in pastoring folks is - Whn you know someone is in error(not gross error but error nonetheless) Where do you leave it? A simple rebuke and then leave the rest for them? A continued instruction in that area? I have a man who refuses to attend on Sunday for what I consider not to ba a viable reason... Do I treat him as a member of GOD's family and the church even though he is in disobedience?
I'm not a pastor, but I'm pretty sure I know how my pastor would handle it. He would probably instruct the man in the correct path, and then leave it to him to choose the right way. In the meantime, someone in disobedience would not be allowed to hold any position of leadership.

I see no reason to ask someone to leave unless they are stirring up discord and trying to make others follow their example. If he is not in any important position, then I see no reason to do anything other than treat him with patience and kindness and pray for his soul.

[Kingskidtoo]

I believe the biggest problem we face in the Church in america today is that we have to many things that keep us from seeking him with all our hearts, minds, soul, and strength. I think if we would push away from the table more often, lay down the remote to the TV and spend more time in building a relationship with him we wouldn't struggle with the temptations of the flesh. Sexual relations outside of marriage is wrong in almost any christian religion, or should be. And if we as Apostolic one God Jesus named people are allowing that spirit to effect the TRUE CHURCH what is our excuse going to be before GOD? & were are the people who are walking in the Spirit like they should, is God not still more powerful and able to deliever the Church through travail and rebuke? Just food for thought. KingskidtooPlease don't tell me those things happen and ministers don't address it? Please!

If they won't repent, kick em out and let the church roll on!

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus1

How can one lead another, who refuses to follow?

It's the Gospel, Church!
Brother Villa

[Victoryitsmine1]

Bro Rutledge,

I am not a pastor but am a preachers wife and we just this week lost one of our assistant pastors to this same thing, He would not let the pastor be pastor. I know it is hard but I have seen your church people on the net met a ton of them and I know you are doing a great job! keep it up!!

Love yall in the Lord
Sis T (sis song)

[apostolicwoman]

Have you ever had a situation where you do all that you can do in prayer and in concern and in love to help a person who has asked for pastoral guiedance only to find that no matter what you say they will not listen?

The ministry is a powerful tool that God uses in the building of his glorious Church. Believe it or not, the pastor's words can be very important. God uses the pastor's voice many times in order to be heard. People who willl not listen to the pastor may be gambling with eternity.

God bless
BroRutledgeI used to be one of those people who did not listen.Mostly because I was made fun of as a child .I wanted to be in control of my own life.I have came a long way I realise now that I had to go through alot of heartaces and mistakes that if I had only listened to my Godly pastor that I could have saved myself alot of trouble.If people would only realise that the man of God is the very voice of God and that they only want whats best for them.If they could only realise the time they put into people in prayer fasting counciling,and how much it hurts when they have a answer from God and they do not listen.What won me over was my pastors love and kindness forgiveness and mercy.No matter how rebellious I was he just kept on loving me.The best advice I could give you comming from one of those saints who used to not listen to one who has learned the beauty of submission is just keep on loving them be patient and never give up on them

[apostolicwoman]

I am writting you because I used to be one of those who did not listen.I think mostly it was because I was made fun of as a child.And I wanted to be in control of my own life, and I did not want anyone telling me what to do because I was run over as a child.I realise and have for some time now if I would have only listened to my Godly pastor I could have saved myself alot of heartaches and trouble.If people could only realise you are the very voice of God and that God tell you things about them to tell them.And the endless hours you spend in prayer fasting for them and how much it hurts you when they do not listen to what God has told you.What won me over is how my poastor kept on loving me and showing me kindness and forgiveness even when I had hurt him terribly.So the best advice I could give you comming from one who used to be rebellious to one who has learned the beauty of submission is just keep on showing them love and kindness and forgiveness of God no matter how much they hurt you and be patient although I know some of them really try your nerves, and most of all dont ever give up on them

[PastorS]

I would like to encourage our fellow pastors as Paul once did.

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Tim. 4:1-5

And to believers in general, so obey your pastors:

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Cor 11:2

Please be deligent to be ready for the Lords Appearance

[Sis]

Pastor Rutledge, You are not alone my brother, I had one tell me my job was just to preach to him and God would do the rest.

The woman he was living with was not his wife. They had a joint account that they paid their tithes out of but different last names, so I asked and I was right, and he didn't like that. So rather than get married they left the wrong way.

This is a terrible time where it seems with TBN, Radio, and everything else these people don't want to be sheparded and they don't feel they need to answer to any one as long as they can here the word they are alright never mind adhering to it.I'm a teacher. I left the school system to work in a museum because I couldn't stand what they taught. It was so subtile, but basically the end result was to get kids to quit listening to their parents, authority, and do what they saw was right in their own eyes. It is taught to be respectful to them when they are talking, but do what you think is right in the end. These are GRADE-SCHOOL kids! Naturally it follows that all authority is included.

If society can get kids to not listen to their Bible-believing parents, THEY (society) can mold them into what they think is best. We're seeing a lot of anger (school shootings) that has come from this mad "experiment", and there is more, I'm afraid.

So there are these young adults now who don't listen to authority. They will let you talk but will do what they see is right in their own eyes. I'm afraid the first generation of kids taught this way from K-12 have already graduated from college, and are in their young adult years now. *SIGH*

It's a description of rebellion right from the Bible, isn't it?

[electladynb]

I was just thinking about this same type of thing and I didn't know how to start a thread... Thanks for starting it....


Anyways, in talking to a friend of mine, they have someone who is choosing after the pastor has already said no to become engaged to a man although she is divorced. Of course he can't "kick them out of the church" but he can have it so they can't be in any leadership positions, etc.... but how does one deal with this type of situation? Is there anything in writing that a church has in dealing with this situation? Any information would be helpful. Thanks.

[foxfamily238]

Bro. Rutledge.

One thing I continue to aquire in this life, is the knowledge that we are not called to save, or to heal people, rather we are called to preach the word. Yes, more than most I know, I truly believe in healing, (emotional, physical, spiritual, etc.), and training, equipping, and leading by our own example.

But after preaching and effective teaching, (that's a biggie, because sometimes we preach what we should 'teach'.) If after all that, they still don't get it, I shake my head, ask the Lord a few questions, and move on.

Matthew 5:6, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled"
Filled with..? Knowledge, direction, healing, etc. all things that pertain to life and godliness. "Righteousness", which of course is whatever it takes for that soul to be "right" with Christ. When they are hungry, they'll open their mouth wide, and just feed them.

Many have such broken pasts, and deep wounds, that they are simply not able to help themselves, or never aquired the tools to do it. It takes longsuffering and much love to be extra patient with some folks. While other preachers simply give up, and kick em out, Jesus would never do that. Just keep on loving, and working with as much as you are "allowed" to. -Lord, bless bro. Rutledge and strengthen him with longsuffering, which comes by your divine nature. Give him assurance, that in giving so much to help and love, his labor is not in vain. Bless him right now, in Jesus name. Amen.

:angel:

[Phyllis]

I too was one of those that did not listen to my pastor and it seemed to stem from a problem I had all my life ,that of submission to anyone including God Him self That act of disobedience in my life caused much heart ache and regret and it took many years for me to realize that I was dealing with sin in my life for being unsubmissive to leadership ,being my pastor and everyone else , was sin ,sin of rebellion. Once I realized that this was indeed sin in my life and could call it sin I was able then to ask the Lord 'sforgiveness and my pastor and those concerned In doing that I have now become much stronger and God is able to use me for Him.My rebellion almost cost me my soul God appointed pastors to be over us to teach us and guide us and we required to submit to those whom God has appointed to be over us.

I think a Pastor needs to be firm with his sheep that may have wondered off the straight and narrow path but at the same time be loving with the purpose of winnng that one back to the Lord and to fellowship With God and his people I do feel Borther Rutledge that you display that quality in your life and you live the life before Your people

Thank you Pastor Rutledge for teaching me this principle of obedience to those that God has appointed to be over me. You truly care for the souls of those that are under you and I pray that God will bless you in abundance with many souls for your labors

God bless
sis Phyllis

[warrior]

In response to Elect Lady, I would say that the pastor has no place in choosing a spouse for an individual. It is his place to tell them what the word of God says, but he cannot try to stop them from getting married. He can refuse to perform the ceremony, but if someone else does it, he will just have to accept it.

Just to add another perspective, I think that sometimes pastors poke their noses in places where they shouldn't all for the sake of control. If you have preached the word and given proper counsel and instruction, then you can say that you have done what is required of you and God is pleased. A pastor cannot force anyone do anything. Just as Jesus doesn't force anyone, man shouldn't try to do that either.

[ddc101]

I think its up to us to maintain a relationship with God and pray.We also need to attend church and whatever is preached apply it to our lives.It we do that then there will be no need to ask the pastor whom you should or should not marry.That seems like someone with an overly dependant personality.

I counciled with my pastor and he said this is my advice but the decision is ultimately yours.And thats how it should be.
Now in the case of a person who goes through wives or husbands like water whom is a wolf in sheeps clothing and the pastor knows this for a fact then the truth needs to be laid out and the person needs to decide for themselves whether or not this will be a mutually beneficial relationship.
Because if you are not happy and especially a woman because we are given to nagging.Then you will be super unhappy and nag him to death and tear down the house with your mouth and once you say I do know that it becomes Gods will even if it wasn't before.


Marriage is a serious covenant and like the bible says, "Not to be taken lightly."
lv sis.c

[Estrada]

Some people need to learn and experience lifes situations for themselves whether they were disobedient or not the Lord will help them to lift them up over and over again it's just our task to be there for them through lifes storms and their ups and their downs..as difficult as it may seem at times its our current job..so if they get themselves in a bad situation and our phone rings we've got to be there to help...inspite of their disobedience and inability to let it sink down deep...why not try a shovel...lol..lol..lol..hee..hee...that heart needs some working just like so many