How do you explain the human spirit and eternal Spirit of Jesus??? [Archive]

jbenjesus

03-14-2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by nytxn1971
I do believe that his Spirit bonds with ours, yes, just like two people bond when they get married. They are two individuals, yet they are one. Then is it safe to say that the eternal Spirit of God was the human spirit of the man Jesus Christ? or vice-versa?

Would that allow us to declare as the scriptures declare there is only one Spirit?

I just searched and read I Corinthians 6:17, which says, "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." Hence, our spirit is one with His spirit, which is like your word "bond" when people get married.

I Corinthains 12:13 states, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." We became baptized into the body of Christ and individually became it's members through the baptism in the Spirit? Correct?

Are we not collectively the body of Christ? Individually it's members?

Given all this can we answer the questions I posed in the first post:

"How do you respond to someone who may read this and say, "This author is saying there are two spirits."?

If the man Jesus Christ had a human spirit that was not the Spirit of God, how many spirits are there?

Is it perfectly valid to say that for all intents and purposes, the spirit of the man Jesus Christ, was the Spirit of God?

Is that a Gnostic statement or teaching and should not be taught?"

Can we say just as our spirit is one with the Lord, and we know the Lord is Spirit, so we can say one with/in His Spirit?

Is that how Christ's human spirit was really one with the eternal Spirit of God?

Do we make the man Jesus Christ not really a man (like us) because we say His human spirit and eternal Spirit were really inseparable?

Are our human spirits (whether born again or not) inseparable, in a different sense than Christ's human spirit, from His Spirit?

I know there are a lot of questions, but as I ask and get response it leads to more questions.

I really would like solid biblical answers to stand on.

Thanks for responding.

ddc101

03-14-2003, 06:29 PM

Bro.J the word teaches there was only one Spirit.Two would mean that he needed the Holy Ghost like we do.How Jesus is like us is that he was born of Adamic Flesh.Yet even though he was born of flesh he did not yield his members to unrighteousness.Because he overcame sin in the flesh he is the living proof that through his Spirit we can also.He was God manifest in the flesh.sis.c

light

03-14-2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
Bro.J the word teaches there was only one Spirit.Two would mean that he needed the Holy Ghost like we do.How Jesus is like us is that he was born of Adamic Flesh.Yet even though he was born of flesh he did not yield his members to unrighteousness.Because he overcame sin in the flesh he is the living proof that through his Spirit we can also.He was God manifest in the flesh.sis.c

Sister after reading your above quote, how do you explain the following scriptuers.

.Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 [B]Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him

jbenjesus

03-14-2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
Bro.J the word teaches there was only one Spirit.Two would mean that he needed the Holy Ghost like we do. I'm not teaching against it. I just would like specific answers to the specific questions I posted, because as Bernard states He had a human spirit and the Spirit of God, which would seem like two spirits.

Unless it is really valid to say that His human spirit and His divine Spirit were essentially the same.

If it is valid, then the next question would be than was He like us - body, soul, and spirit, if His human spirit was actually Deity itself?

Oldpreach

03-15-2003, 03:38 AM

I feel at this point that there is much speculation going on here and that perhaps it is a bit difficult to get beyond it really. We do know this , that The Lord Jesus was God , and he was man. When we go past that , we have to be extremely careful because what happens is that speculations arise and then things are built upon the speculation that take curves. To me , that is how some trinitarian Theology arose.

"Great is the mystery of Godliness...(e.g. of God or God ?) , God was manifested in the flesh."

It is a mystery or unknown , or perhaps not understandable how God did this , but Praise the Lord , He did do it !!! Perhaps also , it is not understandable to our finite minds every detail about the Lords Diety/humanity.

ddc101

03-15-2003, 09:49 AM

It is not just who and what was in Jesus Christ.But it is why he existed at all that has to be considered.He was the unity of God and flesh.He is all God and All Man.I do not see where Bro.Bernard is teaching Jesus has a spirit different than God but that he is trying to explain things and maybe the wordage could be different.Alot of the proposed heavenly flesh doctrine got started from speculation also.I am not sitting here trying to figure out anything.God has it already figured out.Alot of what needs to be understood by humanity is that God is omnipresent and that he could be in Christ and still be omnipotent.

light

03-15-2003, 10:03 AM

DDc101 could you give me your take on these verses please? Just so you know I am oneness from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet.

.Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him

jbenjesus

03-15-2003, 10:14 AM

A lot here a preaching to the choir. I'm not here to challenge the scripture that there is one Spirit.

We all adhere to the Oneness of God here. If we didn't we wouldn't be able to post on this GNC.

Can anyone list the questions I have already proposed and answer them?

If necessary I will list them again, but I already did it above.

ddc101

03-15-2003, 02:49 PM

Bro.J,
I just want to add without argueing because it seems I am not understanding just what it is you are trying to get at but
If Jesus had a human spirit outside of Gods Spirit would this not make him a separate diety?So that is not possible because he is God.He is God doing a new thing..coming in Flesh...He said

Heb 10:5
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
(KJV)

The difference about Man and God is that Man became a living soul at the breath of God.Jesus always was.He is the omnipotent God who stood among men in human flesh and hugged them and told them how much he loved them and then died for them.Yet he did not die a spiritual death.
I just wanted to share that there is a doctrine called JDS or Jesus died spiritually that proposes that Jesus had a human spirit that died and went to hell.I cannot see where that is biblically correct.
And Bro.J please don't misunderstand me when I say I am not saying that is what you are proposing.But it is what men propose when they overly speculate.lv sis.c

jbenjesus

03-16-2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by ddc101
Bro.J,
I just want to add without argueing because it seems I am not understanding just what it is you are trying to get at but
If Jesus had a human spirit outside of Gods Spirit would this not make him a separate diety?So that is not possible because he is God.... Yet he did not die a spiritual death.... I just wanted to share that there is a doctrine called JDS or Jesus died spiritually that proposes that Jesus had a human spirit that died and went to hell.... And Bro.J please don't misunderstand me when I say I am not saying that is what you are proposing.

I asked previously, "If the man Jesus Christ had a human spirit that was not the Spirit of God, how many spirits are there?"

I know there is only one. I'm not trying to get you to say something contrary to scripture.

Since that is true, Is it perfectly acceptable to say that, "The spirit of the man Jesus Christ was the Spirit of God?" :confused: yes or no

Is there a difference to this answer based on pre-resurrection or post-resurrection?

My further questions are based upon these 2 answers, so when this is answered then I'll ask another question.

Thank you for responding.

BroRutledge

03-16-2003, 09:28 AM

The Spirit that was in Christ was the Same Spirit that was the Father that brought forth the Son. The Spirit that left The flesh hanging on the cross was the Same Spirit that raised him from the dead which is the same Spirit that fell on the day of Pentecost which is the same ONE Spirit that we are filled with when we receive the Spirit of Christ which we call the Holy Ghost which is the same Spirit that was God, is God, and shall always be God from beginning to end and the same was in the beginning with God and was God.

Joh 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1Co 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2 Corinthians
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory...

God bless
BroRutledge

ddc101

03-16-2003, 10:15 AM

1.I believe the Spirit of the man Christ Jesus was the Spirit of God.
so yes.
2.I feel there is no difference as far as Gods concerned.But as applies to man there is a very large difference.Meaning that blood had to be shed in order for us to enter into the Spirit realm.Man before that was of the Adamic nature only.Jesus Christ was the first born of many brethren.That is why I stated before that we cannot separate the purpose of Jesus's humanity from the concept of Diety.The purpose of Jesus's humanity was to again reconcile Spirit(Gods Spirit) with Flesh(Adamic Flesh).That is why he is called the second Adam.lv sis.c

light

03-16-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by BroRutledge
The Spirit that was in Christ was the Same Spirit that was the Father that brought forth the Son. The Spirit that left The flesh hanging on the cross was the Same Spirit that raised him from the dead which is the same Spirit that fell on the day of Pentecost which is the same ONE Spirit that we are filled with when we receive the Spirit of Christ which we call the Holy Ghost which is the same Spirit that was God, is God, and shall always be God from beginning to end and the same was in the beginning with God and was God.
God bless
BroRutledge

I agree Br.there is one Spirit, there is one God and Jesus is the fullneness of the God head bodly. There is no other or will there ever be. But my question is: Why won't those that believe in one God answer simple questions that are ask by those that do not understand oneness?
The word tell us when someone comes into one of our churches not to run them off because the don't understand oneness but to be longsuffering.
These questions were ask and answered by me with a new family at our church.
I posted the same questions on this board and no one will answer.

They are not trick questions, just the word of God.

I would like to see how others would answer.

.Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he(JESUS) eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child(JESUS) shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him

BroRutledge

03-16-2003, 12:27 PM

Maybe the reason we cannot get answers sometimes is because people do not have ears to hear. Understanding that comes in the spirit realm may be a little tough for some minds to to comprehend.

I find that sometimes even those that seem to be faithful and very active in Church are often carnal. They sometimes cannot hear the word that is directed to them from the Lord and therefore do not know what to say in response to the questions coming from others.

God bless
BroRutledge

jbenjesus

03-16-2003, 02:26 PM

For answering my question.

So we apostolics should have no reservation in saying that the human spirit of the man Jesus Christ was actually the eternal Spirit of God.

Hence, the scriptures state God (Holy Spirit) was in Christ and God (Holy Spirit) was manifest in the flesh.

I was told or read, at some point in the past, that to say the human spirit and the eternal Spirit were the same was not biblical. I think it was also said that that would not make the man Jesus Christ a man like any of us.

That's also why I asked is there a difference that I have not come to see yet, between the human spirit of Christ pre-resurrection and the human spirit of Christ post-resurrection?

In other words, was the human spirit of Christ (pre-resurrection) like our spirit is before we were resurrected (born-again), in some sense that I can't put into words yet?

We have seen in this thread from I Corinthians chapter 6 and 12:

"But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

When we are born-again we are joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him. We have been made to drink into one Spirit.

Since the man Jesus Christ was an example to us in all things of how we should dependant on the Spirit of God completely and totally, then what He experienced as a man would then be what we should experience?

If our spirit became one with the Lord after we drank of that one Spirit of God (through the born-again experience), then did the human spirit of Christ also become one with the eternal Spirit of God, in some sense?

I'm trying to flesh out in words my thoughts. Please bear with me.

I don't know what Light is getting at in this thread. Hopefully, when we open up threads, as ministers, we can keep to the topic brought up.

I'm not sure what Light's questions have to do with this. Maybe they do and I don't see it. But if a thought comes to mind that does not connect to the thread, then open up a new thread on your own, so we can stay focused.

I'm asking humbly. I think this would be best for us all.

light

03-16-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by jbenjesus

I don't know what Light is getting at in this thread. Hopefully, when we open up threads, as ministers, we can keep to the topic brought up.

I'm not sure what Light's questions have to do with this. Maybe they do and I don't see it. But if a thought comes to mind that does not connect to the thread, then open up a new thread on your own, so we can stay focused.

I'm asking humbly. I think this would be best for us all.[/COLOR] [/B]

I may be wrong as I am not able to read minds. Does not your originial question have to do with oneness?
Is not the Spirit of Jesus pre and post resurrection in the God head? If Jesus was the Holy Ghost(Spirit) why did God annoint him with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) when he was 30 years old? Acts 10: 38

If I am reading you wrong please excuse me.

jbenjesus

03-16-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by light
I may be wrong as I am not able to read minds. Does not your originial question have to do with oneness?
Is not the Spirit of Jesus pre and post resurrection in the God head? If Jesus was the Holy Ghost(Spirit) why did God annoint him with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) when he was 30 years old? Acts 10: 38

If I am reading you wrong please excuse me. My question does have to do with oneness.

As I said, I may just not be seeing how your question ties with my questions that started the thread.

Why don't you tell us what you told this person that asked you?

I'm sure you see the connection, but I'm not in your head.

To me the question should have its own new thread.

ddc101

03-16-2003, 10:21 PM

Bro.JBenJesus,
I was taught Oneness by some of the best and accepted it but until I began to fast and pray and got ahold of that big ole black and white bibles study called...Pentecostal Home Study Course that PPH sells again I understand under a new format I did not have complete revelation on it all.One of the lessons speaks of Jesus Christ walking out from between the Cherabims on the ark of the covenant and through the veil.Something came alive in me that day...God revealed himself to me! Knowing Oneness and receiving revelation of it is two entirely different things.It seems to me and I won't be too judgy about this that you are hungering and thirsting after righteousness.And we know our Lord Jesus Christ..he will give you exactly what you ask.
So the answer I want to give to your question about pre and post resurrection is no..Jesus was always God.He did not need to be born again.He was always that resurrection Spirit.Remember he laid his life down freely and took it up again.To say any different would be to say that Jesus needed the Holy Ghost.
The reason we could not have the Holy Ghost before Calvary was that we needed a perfact human sacrifice to die and shed blood for us.Animal blood could never redeem a human.We needed Jesus to come and redeem us and offer his blood on the mercy seat.He was a divine combination of Adamic Flesh and Divine Spirit.And because of Calvary we can now enter into union with God.Adam had that union but it was external.We have this union and it is internal and eternal because it dwells within our souls making them eternal.We will not die.We have the first resurrection within us.Our bodies my lie down in death but our souls will never die as long as we stay IN CHRIST.That is why some people say that the Holy Ghost is paradise restored.Remember what Jesus told the theif on the cross.Today you shall be with me in Paradise?Paradise is relationship.Its what Adam had before the fall.We have to walk in that newness of life.
Hope this helps...sis.c

jbenjesus

03-16-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
Bro.JBenJesus,
I was taught Oneness by some of the best and accepted it but until I began to fast and pray and got ahold of that big ole black and white bibles study called...Pentecostal Home Study Course that PPH sells again I understand under a new format I did not have complete revelation on it all.One of the lessons speaks of Jesus Christ walking out from between the Cherabims on the ark of the covenant and through the veil.Something came alive in me that day...God revealed himself to me! Knowing Oneness and receiving revelation of it is two entirely different things.It seems to me and I won't be too judgy about this that you are hungering and thirsting after righteousness.And we know our Lord Jesus Christ..he will give you exactly what you ask.
So the answer I want to give to your question about pre and post resurrection is no..Jesus was always God.He did not need to be born again.He was always that resurrection Spirit.Remember he laid his life down freely and took it up again.To say any different would be to say that Jesus needed the Holy Ghost.
The reason we could not have the Holy Ghost before Calvary was that we needed a perfact human sacrifice to die and shed blood for us.Animal blood could never redeem a human.We needed Jesus to come and redeem us and offer his blood on the mercy seat.He was a divine combination of Adamic Flesh and Divine Spirit.And because of Calvary we can now enter into union with God.Adam had that union but it was external.We have this union and it is internal and eternal because it dwells within our souls making them eternal.We will not die.We have the first resurrection within us.Our bodies my lie down in death but our souls will never die as long as we stay IN CHRIST.That is why some people say that the Holy Ghost is paradise restored.Remember what Jesus told the theif on the cross.Today you shall be with me in Paradise?Paradise is relationship.Its what Adam had before the fall.We have to walk in that newness of life.
Hope this helps...sis.c I believe without doubt that Jesus was born as God in the flesh, lived as God in the flesh, died as God in the flesh, and resurrected that body and "incorporated" that manifestation in the flesh with His eternal self.

I don't believe Jesus needed the Holy Ghost as we would need the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost was already within Him.

I know that we could not have the Holy Ghost before Calvary like we have Him today.

There are small details that come up every once in awhile that I address. This was one of them.

Elder Adoniyah brought up the fact that the scriptures EXPLICITLY state that the man Jesus Christ was "made both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36)

There's something to that.

Thank you for sharing.

light

03-16-2003, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by jbenjesus

I don't believe Jesus needed the Holy Ghost as we would need the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost was already within Him.

If the Holy Ghost was already in him why did Peter say Jesus was annointed with the Holy Ghost and with power? Acts10:38

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

If Jesus had the Holy Ghost in at birth why these scriptures?

ddc101

03-17-2003, 07:04 AM

Jesus did not just have the Holy Ghost in him at birth.Jesus was the Holy Ghost.The only reason we had to wait for his death to receive it is that we needed blood to be shed so we could be redeemed and reconciled to due to sin and the curse that went forth at the sin of Adam and Eve in the garden.To be annointed is not to receive the Holy Ghost.Annointing denotes chosenness or Kingship...rulership.Go and take that scripture apart with an interlinear bible or your concordance.Don't read all the trinitarian commentaries on it but look at it and pray.You have the Holy Ghost.He will reveal it.lv sis.c

ddc101

03-17-2003, 07:07 AM

Also John did not see Jesus receive the Holy Ghost.He merely saw a confirmation in the Spirit that Jesus was the chosen.You also have to realize that the gospel writers did not truly realize all that he was until he opened their understanding and they recalled all that he said.This was not until after.lv sis.c

jbenjesus

03-17-2003, 08:14 AM

jbenjesus

03-17-2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by light
If the Holy Ghost was already in him why did Peter say Jesus was annointed with the Holy Ghost and with power? Acts10:38

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

If Jesus had the Holy Ghost in at birth why these scriptures?
In short, my response would be sort of along the lines of Sis. Cooper.

The man Jesus Christ was Immanuel – God with us, from birth. The Holy Spirit was resident in the body even as a babe. That is why wise men brought gifts and worshipped Him. If He were not God, it would have been blasphemy to bow down and worship a mere mortal.

From birth to about 30 years of age, we know next to nothing of His life, except that at the age of 12 He stayed in the temple asking many questions, that impressed the religious leaders.

I believe this period of time was much like us before we were born again, except He didn’t sin. I don’t particularly believe He was functioning in the gifts.

I believe only Mary and Joseph, because of the angelic messengers, knew there was something special about Him. But even to them, He was a boy just like all the other boys. I don’t think there was anything outstandish about Him that would draw unnecessary attention to Him. I don’t believe, like some other religions, that He was performing miracles, and raising dead birds to life.

I believe He learned, matured, and grew like the rest of us would. He studied the word like any boy at that time would. He memorized verses like any of us would. He was a boy who grew into a man like any of us would.

Now as to the baptismal event:

The baptismal event, to me, was a fullness of time event. The scriptures say that in the fullness of time, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman. The birth of Jesus Christ was at God’s appointed time.

The baptism of Jesus Christ was at God’s appointed time.

Time for what?

I believe 3 things:

1. To show John that this was the man the God spoke of that would baptize with the Holy Ghost (John 1:29-36). I believe John was the only one that saw the Spirit descending as a dove. It was God’s sign to him alone.

2. To make a public declaration before the people by God Himself, that this was His Son, His Messiah, His anointed one. He wasn’t anointed by any man like in times of old, He was anointed by God Himself. The people heard with the manifestation of God’s voice spoken over His flesh, that this was His Son, whom He was well pleased.

3. This was the point of activation of the omnipotence of God in Christ. This was the beginning of fulfilling His ministry. Now He could preach the gospel to the poor, heal the broken hearted, preach deliverance to the captives, recover sight to the blind, set liberty them that are bruised, and preach the acceptable year of the Lord. I don’t believe He was led or allowed to do any of this before the fullness of time came for His ministry to commence.

I don’t believe it was that He couldn’t do it before, but He did say, “I only do what I see the Father do, and only say what I hear Him say”. Which means, God wasn’t doing that yet. As a man, He had to wait on the Spirit, just like we do.

This all to me is an example of how our lives should be. Completely dependent upon God, waiting upon God, and letting Him lead us in His time.

Why the term, He was full of the Holy Ghost?

Because He was now fully allowed to move in power of the Spirit.

When the apostles were filled with the Spirit, was it not the same for them?

They were told to wait in Jerusalem till they be endued with power and THEN they would be His witnesses. Jesus was not publicly His witness till the baptismal anointing event, all according to His pre-ordained plan.

Please, Light, share with us how you responded?

ddc101

03-17-2003, 10:24 PM

Oh this is such a good post.I pondered on this all day while I was at work.I also thought of the scene when He was born and they came to worship him.Also of Simeon raising him up in the temple at eight days old and proclaiming " Let thy servant now depart in peace for mine eyes have seen thy salvation.He's a light to the Gentiles and a glory to his people Isreal."
What a wonder he is!

Adoniyah

03-18-2003, 05:50 PM

Jbenjesus:

Brother I thought not to enter in upon this discussion but I want to propose a few of things that you might consider. The devil hate these truths. As you know, I underwent quite an attack for holding forth these truths once before. I will not enter in upon a defense for those that would choose to debate it.

First, consider that a man does not have a spirit. Rather, think instead, that the man IS A SPIRIT. Every man is a spirit. I am a spirit. You are a spirit. All men are spirits. Our flesh and bones are only the housing in which our spirits live that give us contact with the material world.

Secondly, consider that a man born that later is born again, has within his spirit a recreated spirit which is his NEW MAN. In other words, a man inside a man. The man that has dominance is the man that you feed the most. Feed the old carnal man, he has dominion over the new man which is weakened by being starved. Feed the new man, the old man is weakened and becomes subjugated to the new, recreated or reborn, newly created man. It is the newly created man that is sustained by the Holy Ghost by the Word of God. Starve one, you feed the other, feed the other you starve the former.

Thirdly, consider that the man Jesus was born a new man. He did not have to be reborn or recreated as a new creature as you and I. Yet, this man is a spirit. This man (a human spirit) was created nothing unlike you and I. He had a beginning. We do not believe in the doctrine of Eternal Sonship. His beginning was at his birth. This man (spirit) is called in the Word, the last Adam.

From his birth he had the Holy Ghost which is the Spirit of God. Being filled with the Holy Ghost from birth, he is called "Immanuel," which is to say "God with us." But, did not John the Baptist also have the Holy Ghost from his birth? Was John called "God with us?" You and I have the Holy Ghost, but we dare not call ourselves by such name as "Immanuel." So how was Jesus, the man (spirit) different than that of John the Baptist in ths regard?

Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand

First, neither you, I, nor did John the Baptist have the Holy Ghost without measure. Holy Ghost without measure is ALL OF GOD. All of God in a man (spirit) can only be called without equivocation "Immanuel," or "God with us."

Secondly, God has not given you nor I, nor did he give John the Baptist all things into our hands. Neither you or I, nor can John the Baptist say, "All power is given unto me both in heaven and in earth."

Lastly, consider that though the man (spirit) Jesus was a man (spirit) approved of God as Peter said: "How God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost who went about doing good, healing all that were sick and oppresed of the devil." (hope I quoted it right from Acts) Yet, there was a distinction between the spirit and the Spirit. That is to say that there was a distinction between the man (spirit) and God (Spirit) before his glorification.

Moreover, this is to say that the man (spirit) Jesus became so united with his Father (Spirit) in the process of glorification, so much so that in glorification they became inextricably ONE. Now, in glorification, there is no distinction between the man and God. It can now be properly said, this man is BOTH Lord and Christ. It can now be properly said, "This man is God."

Hopes this helps.

drummerboy_dave

03-18-2003, 06:10 PM

That is the most enlightening piece, I have ever read on this subject. Thank you, Adoniyah.

drummerboy_dave

03-18-2003, 06:38 PM

I've emailed you, three times, my brother. Even within the hour. I can't explain it.

jbenjesus

03-18-2003, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Jbenjesus:

Brother I thought not to enter in upon this discussion but I want to propose a few of things that you might consider. I have been waiting for you to enter into this discussion.

Do you realize that you are to blame???

You caused many of these thoughts to come to mind from previous long ago post in the old GNC?

I just haven't been able to talk to you much.

I have weekends free on my cell so I'm going to try and call you then. I got your e-mail with your contact information. Thank you.

And as to what you just posted:

I'm copying and pasting it so I can reflect.

Hnovilla

03-18-2003, 07:39 PM

His Name is Jesus!

Beloved, the Spirit of God is eternal and everlasting; the spirit of man, temporal. Man, including Jesus, has been limited to time.
"Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire, but a BODY have you prepared me...I have come to do your will, O God."
The Word, which is SPIRITUAL and eternal, came to dwell in an temporal abode, the flesh. It did not become ONE with the flesh, but with the spirit of man; even as HE becomes ONE with His Church.
The soul is the life of the body, the spirit is the very man. God created man a spirit, formed a body for the man, and gave life to that body. Today, man believes with his spirit, repents with his soul, and obeys with his body.
Because we SEE only our bodies (natural realm), it is difficult to believe that we are MORE than a physical body. As long as man does not understand that we are more than physical, it will be almost impossible to relate the indwelling of God in us; even in the Son of God.
Brother Villa

Adoniyah

03-19-2003, 12:53 PM

Jbenjesus:

So, I am to blame?

I have been blamed for a lot of things. My wife loves to blame me if she cannot find her keys. She is so funny. It is nice to be blamed for causing others to think and to meditate on the Word. That can't be all bad.

After you have reflected, let us talk some more.

I may be away this week-end, if so, I will send you my phone no. where I will be.

Drummer:

I am happy that it was enlightening to you. God bless you my little brother. You are a great encouragement to me.

jbenjesus

03-19-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Jbenjesus:

So, I am to blame? It is nice to be blamed for causing others to think and to meditate on the Word. That can't be all bad. Thank you for taking that in the right spirit. It was meant to be a compliment.

It's a great gift to be able to cause others to think, consider, and re-consider beliefs and meditate on the Word.

No, it's not all bad.

BTW, Adoniyah, in case you didn't know you can edit your own post, without creating a new post to correct the previous post.

Like I just did with this statement.

Let me know your alternative contact information for this weekend. I'd like to talk to you also about what you posted concerning your ministry nowa' days and what you envision of your ministerial future.

ddc101

03-19-2003, 10:13 PM

Bro.Strange,
You know I will not let you off the hook.Explain how he could have the Holy Ghost and be the Holy Ghost?
I do not believe in the doctine of eternal sonship either.But I do believe that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself and that he was God in flesh.Separate in purpose but the same Spirit.I am not disagreeing with you in any sense but I would like you go go a little deeper into this.lv sis.c

OurLordisone

03-20-2003, 09:37 AM

FRom reading the above posts one can come to the conclusion that the Man Jesus Was no other Than GOd Himself In Flesh:
1Ti 3:16 - Show Context
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Co 15:47 - Show Context
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

God BLess
OurLordisone

Adoniyah

03-20-2003, 12:33 PM

Sis,

You asked: "You know I will not let you off the hook.Explain how he could have the Holy Ghost and be the Holy Ghost?"

If, when Jesus was born, we can say that he was the Holy Ghost, then we would all have to agree with the trinitarians that believe in the preexistence of the Man, Christ Jesus which is the same as saying that we believe in the doctrine of "Eternal Sonship."

The man born in the manger is the Son of God which had his beginning there. Spare me the lengthy bibile study to prove this. Christ Jesus the man, became incarnate there. That is to say, a man took on a body and became visible to a material world, nothing unlike you and I at our birth, when we, as spirits were sent into the world.

He was filled from birth with all of the fullness of God. The Holy Ghost dwelt within him without measure. Anyone who has the Holy Ghost without measure can only be the Christ (the anointed) who was sent into the world.

Within the human spirit of the man, dwelt all of God. Yet, in preglorification, we see the distinctions between God and the Man. After glorification, those lines of distinctions are erased.

God WAS IN Christ reconciling the world unto himself. Now, after his passion and glorification, that reconcilation is complete. In the present tense it would be more proper to say, "God NOW IS Christ who has already reconciled the world unto himself."

The thing that confuse many in their study of Christology is thier misunderstanding of pre and post glorification. As Philipians 2nd chapter teaches us Christ went through his humiliation, and became highly exalted even to the point that every knee shall bow before him. This is not God number two, but rather the man that became so united with his father as to become inextricably one with him. All lines of distrinctions are now gone forever since we see only one God, whose name is Jesus, the man before whom every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess.

All power is GIVEN unto him....

All things are GIVEN into his hands....

He has been MADE BOTH Lord and Christ....

He has been HIGHLY EXALTED so much so that every tongue shall confess that he, JESUS IS LORD....

He has been GIVEN a name which is above EVERY NAME...including Yah, Jehovah, Elohim, etc., etc.

The man has BECOME our salvation.

On and on.

Yet, this man was so much filled, in his own human spirit, with the Holy Ghost, which is eternal, that he was from brith, called Immanuel, which is to say, "God with us."

Now, in glorification, that human spirit, the last Adam, the beginning of a new creation, a new species of humanity walking on the earth, has become so much united by the processs of glorification, that it can only be said as did the Apostle:

1Jo 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, and eternal life"

Jesus said that God is a Spirit while talking to the woman at the well. That is true, as it always has been. But now, in his glorification, the man and the Spirit of God has become united as to not be any division from the other.

The process of glorification of the man born of a virgin, though filled with the Holy Ghost from the beginning, involved temptation. God cannot be tempted. Yet this man was tempted in every point.

The man had to suffer and die. God cannot suffer, neither can he die. He had to undergo every battle that you and I had, but without failing even once. In his temptations, battles, encounters with unbelief, the world and the devil, he overcame in every instance. He overcame even his own flesh. He never failed even once.

How could such a thing be, that a human never sinned or failed not even once? The Holy Ghost which lived in him without measure, by which he (the man) was anointed, gave him the power. The great anointing of wisdom was seen upon him by the Doctors of the Law at age twelve. Yet it was not time for him to be revealed as he told his mother at the wedding at Canna. It was at that wedding that his time came to be revealed. He then turned the water into wine which was the beginning of his miracles and the unveiling of who he was.

From that time on, his glorification began working in him. It shown through in a mighty way on the mount of Transfiguration. Yet, the work of glorification in him was still not complete. There was at least one last temptation awaiting him. He overcame, even in death. Praise God!

It has been properly unveiled to us who he WAS. It is now time that we be revealed who he IS. We must not presently think of Jesus in his preglorified state.

The man, who is a spirit, (as all men are spirits) had the Holy Ghost living in him without measure, he could only be called "God with us." The man (human spirit) though born perfect, had to learn obedience, he had to learn submission, and had to surrender his own human will to the measureless Holy Ghost that lived in him. It was through this continual and final surrender, even to the power of death, that he was finally and completely glorified, becoming so united with his Father as to be no longer thought of as only a man. Rather, this MAN must be thought of as the One and Only Wise God, whose name is Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace. Yes, this man IS GOD.

Hence the Words of Peter, the man with the revelation of Jesus:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God HATH MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH Lord and Christ

There had to first be a Jesus before he could be MADE into something that he was not before.

That same Jesus did not exist in eternity, unless we want to agree with the Trinitarians.

That Jesus had a beginning. He was born of a virgin.

That same Jesus who had a beginning, overcame the world, the flesh and the devil. God raised him up from the dead, by the power of the Spirit that lived in him WITHOUT measure.

By his overcoming with the Spirit that dwelt in him, he also was glorified and became ONE with his Father, the Holy Ghost that lived in him without measure.

Before his glorification it was properly said, "God is not a man, neither is he the son of man...."

After his glorification, it is properly said,

Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as CONCERNING THE FLESH, CHRIST [came], WHO IS over all, GOD blessed for ever. Amen.

See it? Christ...who is...God.

It can now be poperly said, the Man is God. It could not have been said at the time of Baalam's propehsy in Numbers. God came into the world by the baby Jesus. That is to say that he was God incarnate, Emmanuel, God with us. Thus he lived in the man without measure, making the man his own arm, powerful to save. He led him through his life and ministry, leading him to the cross, where he forsook him for a moment, unable to look upon sin. He raised him from the dead and became so much united with him so that Peter could say, that he (the man) was MADE BOTH LORD AND CHIRST.

jbenjesus

03-20-2003, 01:20 PM

If you could see a picture of me now, it would be with my mouth open trying to take it all in.

Pre-glorification there is a distinguishing or distinction between the man Jesus and God...

Post-glorification there is no distinction.

light

03-20-2003, 05:07 PM

Adoniyah said:
If, when Jesus was born, we can say that he was the Holy Ghost, then we would all have to agree with the trinitarians that believe in the preexistence of the Man, Christ Jesus which is the same as saying that we believe in the doctrine of "Eternal Sonship." The man born in the manger is the Son of God which had his beginning there. Spare me the lengthy bibile study to prove this. Christ Jesus the man, became incarnate there. That is to say, a man took on a body and became visible to a material world, nothing unlike you and I at our birth, when we, as spirits were sent into the world.

I totaly agree with your first paragraph, Jesus was not the Holy Ghost.

You said:
He was filled from birth with all of the fullness of God. The Holy Ghost dwelt within him without measure. Anyone who has the Holy Ghost without measure can only be the Christ (the anointed) who was sent into the world.

Your secound paragraph I have trouble with. I can find no scripture to support your statement that the Holy Ghost dwelt within him without measure. In fact I find scripture that says just the opposite.

If Jesus was filled without measure there would have been no learning process. Jesus went thru a learning process just like natural man. Jesus increased in wisdom and favor with God. Luke 2:52 If he had all of the Holy Ghost How could he increase in favor with God?
Jesus had to eat butter and honey to know to refuse evil and choose good.Isa. 7:15
If Jesus had been full of the Holy Ghost without measure from birth he would have been subject to his father only. Jesus was subject to Joseph and Mary.Luke 2:51
We have scripture telling us where and when the Holy Ghost came on Jesus. After that day at the River Jordan when the Holy Ghost descended on Jesus the bible then tells us Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost and it drove him into the wilderness.
Only after that day did Jesus heal the sick and raise the dead. Only then did he forgive sin. Only then did he change water into wine. Peter said Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and with power Acts10:38

How could such a thing be, that a human never sinned or failed not even once? The Holy Ghost which lived in him without measure, by which he (the man) was anointed, gave him the power. The great anointing of wisdom was seen upon him by the Doctors of the Law at age twelve. Yet it was not time for him to be revealed as he told his mother at the wedding at Canna. It was at that wedding that his time came to be revealed. He then turned the water into wine which was the beginning of his miracles and the unveiling of who he was.

[John 1:32] And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
[John 1:33] And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[John 1:34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
[John 1:35] Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
[John 1:36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
[John 1:37] And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

Jesus was revealed as the savior the Lamb of God to the word when John said Behold the Lamb of GodAt that time men began to follow Jesus.

jbenjesus

03-20-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by light
I totaly agree with your first paragraph, Jesus was not the Holy Ghost.

Your secound paragraph I have trouble with. I can find [B]no scripture to support your statement that the Holy Ghost dwelt within him without measure. In fact I find scripture that says just the opposite.
Hi Light,

Is there some reason you have not responded to my question. I answered yours, but you have yet to answer mine.

BTW, the scripture that Adoniyah paraphrased, which you said you couldn't find is this one:

Joh 3:34

(ALT) "For [He] whom God sent speaks the sayings of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

(ASV) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure.

(KJV) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

(KJV+) For1063 he whom3739 God2316 hath sent649 speaketh2980 the3588 words4487 of God:2316 for1063 God2316 giveth1325 not3756 the3588 Spirit4151 by1537 measure3358 unto him.

(LITV) For the One whom God sent speaks the Words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

(MKJV) For He whom God has sent speaks the Words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

(NASB) "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.

(NASB+) "For He whom3739 God2316 has sent649 speaks2980 the words4487 of God2316; for He gives1325 the Spirit4151 without3756, 1537 measure3358.

(RSV) For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for it is not by measure that he gives the Spirit;

(YLT) for he whom God sent, the sayings of God he speaketh; for not by measure doth God give the Spirit;

Hope that helps.

Still awaiting to hear how you would respond?

light

03-20-2003, 06:44 PM

BTW, the scripture that Adoniyah paraphrased, which you said you couldn't find is this one:

Joh 3:34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Jbenjesus
Im sorry ive been very busy and have not posted for a while.Part of the answer was in my post today.
If you will read the above verse and those that precead it you will see John is not saying what Adoniyah said, from birth.

John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John saw the Holy Ghost descend on Jesus. After John saw it then the bible says Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost, no where does it say at birth.

Adoniyah

03-20-2003, 07:28 PM

Light:

The only way that he could be called "God with us" is that he had to have the fulness of God from birth lest the angels were in idolatry by worshipping only a mere babe. They did not worship a demi-god in a manger, they worshipped all that is God.

He had to be anointed of and full of the Holy Ghost at age twelve as there is no twelve year old child that can amaze the Doctors of the Law by his discourse with them without the supernatural anoing of the Holy Ghost. It was the anointing of the wisdom of the Holy Ghost that gave him such ability.

To claim that he was less possessed of the Holy Ghost than John the Baptist at John's birth would to place the Lord of Glory with less glory at birth than that of John.

Isa 7:14 did not say that his name would be Immanuel at some later time in his life, maybe after he becomes an grown man. Instead, it says that a virgin would conceive and bear a (baby boy) son and shall call his name Immanuel. He is "God with us" from birth. Neither adult nor baby flesh and bones make a God. "God was in Christ...." and that was from birth.

It is plain to see that the Holy Ghost dwelt in him, without measure, so much so that he could only be called "Immanuel" or "God with us" from his very birth. Though not yet manifested, it is quite clear that he had the fulness of God from birth.

I have known some that claimed, by a misunderstanding of scriptures, that Jesus received the Holy Ghost at his baptism. For some, I have taken the time to explain those scriptures fully to them. They gladly saw the truth and forsook that misconception. Let us not be tricked into believing that Jesus "got the Holy Ghost" when he was baptized.

light

03-20-2003, 08:16 PM

I have known some that claimed, by a misunderstanding of scriptures, that Jesus received the Holy Ghost at his baptism. For some, I have taken the time to explain those scriptures fully to them. They gladly saw the truth and forsook that misconception. Let us not be tricked into believing that Jesus "got the Holy Ghost" when he was baptized.

I am not saying Jesus got the Holy Ghost like you and I. The word of God says that jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and power by God. John saw a dove descend (Holy Ghost) Just like God told him he would.

[John 1:33] And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

God told John the Spirit would descend and remain on the one that would be the messiah.
When John was in prison he sent deciples to see if the spirit was remaining.
Jesus didn't just say yes I'm the messiah.

[Mat 11:3] And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
[Mat 11:4] Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

The annointing of the Spirit and power was not from birth, but at age 30.

Jesus is the bodly manifstation Of the Spirit.
The Holy Ghost is a manifstation of God for a comforter and to raise us up at the coming of Jesus.
When all thing are subdued unto him there will be no need for the manifstations of God any longer. God will become all in all.

[1 Cor 15:28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

ddc101

03-20-2003, 11:25 PM

Thanks Bro.Strange,
I was thinking of pre and post glorification when I posted the very first post to you yesterday.Expound some more on this please.I got much out of what you shared already.
I have another question for you concerning this.
When we are saying the Holy Ghost from birth what exactly do you mean? First you said "Our human Spirit is who we are."
Then you said he had the Holy Ghost from birth.It has always been my understanding that the Sonship and the Holy Ghost were the One True God in justification...and regeneration.Another words these are the works of God to redeem us.The blood and the Spirit.So its not just so much who Jesus is but what God was doing through this work...the man Christ Jesus..reconciliation of God and man.Please elaborate.I will read this when I return tommorrow evening.lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-21-2003, 10:06 AM

Light:

I agree.

It is important to see that the sign that John saw descending upon Jesus was not for the sake of Jesus, but for the sake of John who was the forerunner of the Christ. John needed to be sure for himself that this was the one to come whose shoe laces he did not consider himself worthy to untie. (paraphrased)

I have seen the spirit descending upon many, as you have also, which subsequently manifested in various ways. The manifesting of that descending spirit through the man is the effects of the anointing that is upon the man. John just so happened to see it descending in the form of a dove. I can't say that I have ever seen the spirit descend upon anyone in that form. I have seen other forms however. In the upper room it was seen as cloven tongues of fire at their initial infilling.

However to say, "The annointing of the Spirit and power was not from birth, but at age 30" denies that he had power and anointing before age 30.

I disagree with that estimation.

Did Jesus live sinless? If he did, by what power was he able to live sinless? No human spirit is able to live undefiled by sin to age 30 except there be the power of God resident in him. That power is nothing but the anointing of the Holy Ghost. God was in Christ from birth. God is the Holy Ghost. As Jesus told the woman at the well, "God is a spirit."

How many twelve year old kids can confound the Doctors of the Law by means of discourse with them? I know of none regardless of how intellectual they may be in the natural. Jesus did not converse with them by means of the natural but by means of the supernatural anointing.

The Holy Ghost lived in him from birth unless the angels that worshipped him were in idolatry or human worship. Human worship is idol worship. Yet, you and I should not be worshiped as the HOly Ghost does not live within us as without limit as it did Jesus.

Sis:

Yes, I said, "Our human spirit is who we are." I might add that our human spirit is what we are also. As James said, the body without the spirit is only a corpse." Without the spirit of man living in me, I would not have one single motion nor thought. My activities in life moved by my thoughts, which is moved by my ruling love, is reflected in the movements of my body and the expressions that reflect the state of mind. This is my spirit manifested through my body.

Because the natural human spirit of man is fallen, from the garden, he has the capacity for dissimulation, deceit, pretentiousness, hypocrisy or to otherwise camouflage his true spirit. All of this he has learned to do from love of self, love of the world and that which is evil, which he wishes not to have exposed for fear of loss of reputation.

This spirit is corrupt, it is fallen, it is degenerated. If not in public, this spirit will do the works of its father, which is the wicked one, if private when the occasion is conducive in the absence of fear of loss of reputation, wealth, justice of the law, or retribution from others. Since it is degenerated, it has need of REGENERATION. Jesus called it, "born again."

This can only be done by the Word of God by which conviction of sins depict the horror of its lifestyle to the person, repentance from that sin, baptism in the name of Jesus to remit all past sins, continual confession and repentance to remit future sins and the endument of power from on high to live above continued sins.

This endument of power from on high is the spirit of God living inside a human spirit by which that spirit has the power to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. This is the new man that has been regenerated. Jesus had this from birth by which he had the power to overcome from the earliest age. Jesus never knew sins, yet he was a man, the seed of David, tempted in all points as you and I. Jesus, as to his humanity was absolutely in no way any different that you and I, except he had no sin. See Heb. 2:17. In all things HE WAS MADE like unto us. Nothing differing. Absolutely, exactly alike in every single point. Yet, he had no sin.

The fact that he had no sin is owing the the wonderful truth that God lived in him without measure, even from birth by which he had the anointing and power to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil even from the earliest age. Yet, that power was not wasted or used in a disgraceful manner nor was it in the least demonstrated, except at age twelve when he confounded the Doctors of the Law by his dialog with them in the Temple at Jerusalem.

This is mentioned only to show that the anointing dweled in him from the earliest age, yet the beginning of miracles did not take place until the wedding at Canna, because his time (for to be revealed) had not yet come. Yet, it is marvelous that it was at that wedding that Jesus had only moments before told his mother that his time had not yet come, but then shortly afterwards began his working of miracles and revealing who he was. His time for ministry then began from then onward.

Sis, indeed it is our spirit that depict who we are as it did Jesus. Yet, Jesus drew distinctions between himself and his Father during his ministry with such statements as, "Why callest thou me good, there is not good by God." Here is shows the distinction recognizing that without the Holy Ghost (God) living in him, that there is absolutely NOTHING GOOD in man, being alone. This is why Jesus had to be born with the fulness of God from the beginning of his existence.

If such a man were to come to Jesus in postglorification, and were to say, "Good Master, what must I do...," he would be perfectly correct in addressing Jesus in this manner because there are no longer any distinctions between God and the man. Jesus is the God/Man. In other words, this man is God. He has been glorified to the position that the eternal God had for him from the very beginning of creation.

It was the Holy Ghost that conceived in Mary the Christ Child. It was the Holy Ghost in that seed, that caused John the Baptist as yet an unborn child to leap with rejoicing in the womb of Elizabeth at the sound of Mary's pronouncement concerning the expectancy of the Christ Child to be born. Praise God! It is marvelous to see how the Holy Ghost recognizes the Holy Ghost.

While there were distinctions in the spirit of Jesus before his glorification and the Spirit of God (the Holy Ghost) there is now no distinctions between them. To receive the Spirit of Jesus today is to receive the Holy Ghost. To receive the Holy Ghost today, is to receive the Spirit of Christ because he has been MADE BOTH LORD AND CHRIST. Lord and Christ are ONE.

Jesus declared that "All power is GIVEN unto me both in heaven and earth." Even though all the power of both heaven and earth lived in him from birth, it was not his to use at his own discretion as a kid, or even at early adulthood. This thuth is often shown forth in such statements as "I can of mine ownself do nothing...." He demonstrates his own complete and absolute impotence before his glorification.

After his glorification he was so much united with the Holy Ghost that lived in him from birth that he could say, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY.

Before his glorification and complete uniting of his spirit with his Father (the Holy Ghost) that lived in him he could not have made this statement as in Rev. 1:8. Instead, he made statemtns that indicated that he was not Omnipotent, such as, "I can of mine ownself do nothing...." Yet in postglorification he said, "All power is given unto me...I am the Almighty...."

Before his glorification and complete uniting with his Father (the Holy Ghost) that lived in him, he made statements that he was not Omniscient, such as in Mar 13:32, "But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father."

After glorification, Jude called him the ONLY WISE GOD. You can be sure that now, Jesus has the power of knowing both the day and the hour, the minute and the second.

Before glorification, Jesus did not claim to have immortality, as he confessed that he would lay his life down, which he did and then by the power that lived in him, raised it up again.

After glorification, I Ti 6:16 declared of him "WHO ONLY HATH IMMORTALITY..."

Jesus was limited in preglorification to time and space, but after glorification Jesus is known to be omnipresent. He said in Jn. 14:17-19 in effect, "I am WITH you now, but I SHALL be IN YOU" paraphrased.

Jesus spoke much near the end of his earthly ministry of his glorification with the Father who lived in him, especially in John. How tenderly he spoke with heavenly tones of love that resonate deep within our souls today of our own glorification with him even as he was glorified with his father. He said, "I am the way." "I go to the Father." In other words, "I am going to be glorified, but then, just follow me and live by my example and you can share in my glory even as I have shared in the glory of the Father."

Paul said in Jude, that Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal to the Father. Then he also said, "Let the mind be in you." We must not consider it robbery to be like Jesus. John said in his first epistle, "when he appears, we shall be like him." Let this mind be in you. It is not robbery, even though the devil would try to condemn us.

If we believe in the Lord and live his kind of life, we can also share in his glory, because he has made the way plain for us.

Adoniyah

03-21-2003, 10:18 AM

Paul said in Jude??? Hahahaha. I have not taken the time to learn how to operate this thing yet and make corrections....hahaha. Kind of reminds me of Moses building the ark for the flood.....hahahahahaha. One of these days....

dllong

03-21-2003, 10:42 AM

Hey, Is it me or didn't Jude write Jude?

jbenjesus

03-21-2003, 10:56 AM

Halelu Yahhhhhh!!!! Glory!!!

light

03-21-2003, 04:35 PM

Ahoniyah you said:Did Jesus live sinless? If he did, by what power was he able to live sinless? No human spirit is able to live undefiled by sin to age 30 except there be the power of God resident in him. That power is nothing but the anointing of the Holy Ghost. God was in Christ from birth. God is the Holy Ghost. As Jesus told the woman at the well, "God is a spirit."

Isaiah tells us what Jesus would do to refrain from sin.
Please address it.

ddc101

03-21-2003, 10:47 PM

Bro.Strange,
I am reading.I will give a better reply when the week is over.
What I am reading so far I like.lv sis.c

bishop1

03-22-2003, 03:27 AM

drummerboy_dave

:bow:

Praise The Lord;
Give a big hello to your pastor and his wife for us.
The first time I was there was in 1955, and the last time that I visited 57 Rena was in 1997. {after the elevator was installed}

My wife and I have fond memories of Apostolic Faith Church.

GOD BLESS,
Bishop & Sis. J.A.Holland

[URL=http://www.acts238holinessorhell.com]

Bro Philip

03-22-2003, 08:03 PM

well I see it as the man being the sacifice " the lamb of GOD" and the Holy spirt in him as the omnipresent GOD

Adoniyah

03-23-2003, 09:37 PM

Brother Light:

Of course we know what Jesus did to overcome sin. He ate honey and butter. That is all he had to do. Just eat, eat, eat and eat MO honey and butter, and MO honey and butter. Then eat some mo honey and butter.

In fact, I believe that we should have barrels and barrels of honey and butter in every church. On Sunday nights before the beginning of the work week, we just make all them thar sinin' saints eat honey and butter before you let 'em go home. The mo' honey and the mo butter the better 'cause some of 'em sin a whole lot.

In fact that is the remedy for all sin...just eat b-u-t-t-e-r and h-o-n-e-y. Good 'nuf for Jesus... good 'nuf for me. :) Just call me ol' butter face. Wife already calls me "honey."

Obviously, I am being a bit sarcastic with these remarks but it should also be equally obvious that it was not his eating honey and butter which caused him to refuse the evil and choose the good.

I am not going to go into what is meant by butter and honey from Isa 7:15 - 16, or the land forsaken by both her kings. However, I would remind you that Jesus said to his disciples that his "meat," or the food that he was eating was to "do the will of his father." To fully understand this as well as thousands of scriptures the serious student of the Word should also understand natural correspondences with spiritual principles. Isaiah was speaking spiritually rather than naturally.

Constantly, time after time, I unceasingly urge serious students of the Word to learn to think spiritually. I had to learn the hard way paying a big price, though ignorance. But, I learned...praise God.

light

03-24-2003, 12:54 AM

Yes thats the way some would answer that are :confused:. Others on the otherhand get:realmad:. Others just say:o and some have the courage to say I don't know.

Adoniyah

03-24-2003, 08:42 PM

Light:

Only four categories??? Could there not be a fifth? Which of the four do you fall in? :)

ddc101

03-25-2003, 05:02 PM

Bro.Strange,
In the light of what you have posted would you elaborate on
Jesus the second Adam.In Genesis God made Adam of the dust of the ground...note that before he made Adam..he spoke the dust into existance...then he made him of what was already in existance by the power of his word.Jesus however was made a different way as the Word was spoken into the womb of a woman who was made after the fallen nature of man.The orginal Adam was made of undaunted material.It seems to me that God
did it this time in reverse...lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-25-2003, 08:50 PM

Sis,

would you believe, I just spent almost two hours in an attempt to answer your very important question, but somehow lost it. I am disgusted with myself. I don't know what I did wrong. Whew!!! I'll try again another time.

ddc101

03-26-2003, 12:13 AM

I will be patiently waiting.sis.c

jbenjesus

03-26-2003, 01:35 PM

Hello Bro. Adoniyah,

Another question came up that I would like to ask you:

Since the Lord breathes into every physical body a spirit (man's spirit), when that body dies, the spirit of that man returns to the Father - what is the connection?

Is the spirit of man "a part" of God? If so, in what sense?

If all spirits return to the Lord, then what of those who have not obeyed and endured to the very end, if all spirits return to Him?

ddc101

03-26-2003, 01:46 PM

Bro.Strange promised to reply to this but his two hour study would not paste.Hang onto your hat ...he will do it soon.lv sis.c

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 03:12 PM

Jesus was made after a fallen nature?

where does it say that?

jbenjesus

03-26-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Truthseeker
Jesus was made after a fallen nature?

where does it say that? No one here said that, unless I overlooked it. Why did you ask this?

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 04:07 PM

jbenjesus

I went back and looked. I missed read someones post. Sorry.

I believe Jesus's spirit was God. I don't believe at this time he had two spirits that is taught among alot of churches.

jbenjesus

03-26-2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Truthseeker
jbenjesus

I went back and looked. I missed read someones post. Sorry.

I believe Jesus's spirit was God. I don't believe at this time he had two spirits that is taught among alot of churches. The point in this thread, regarding that belief, is that if you believe the man Jesus Christ's spirit was God, then you must agree with the trinitarians in the "eternal sonship" of Jesus Christ.

Do you understand now the ramifications of that belief?

What do you say now?

ddc101

03-26-2003, 08:58 PM

Brother I disagree that this means you must believe in the eternal sonship if so that you believe that.The sonship began with the virgin birth not before.God can be in a body and still be anywhere he wants to be doing anything he wants to be and not be seperate but still very much in unity with himself.He has no limitations as we do as he is OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT.
This needs to be fully understood when thinking about God at all.lv sis.c

jbenjesus

03-26-2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
Brother I disagree that this means you must believe in the eternal sonship if so that you believe that.The sonship began with the virgin birth not before.God can be in a body and still be anywhere he wants to be doing anything he wants to be and not be seperate but still very much in unity with himself.He has no limitations as we do as he is OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT.
This needs to be fully understood when thinking about God at all.lv sis.c If you believe the spirit of the man Jesus Christ was in "the days of His flesh" the Holy Spirit of God, then how was He like us "in all points"?

He wouldn't be like us, "in all points", because from His birth His s/Spirit was omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Our spirits are not like that, so He would not have been like us, "in all points."

Every man born has a soul (life) made up of his spirit in a body. The man's spirit is not the Holy Spirit of God.

Please, do not take my comments as an attack on your character or beliefs. I'm trying to iron out questions in my mind as well. Discussing is useful in the ironing.

light

03-26-2003, 09:59 PM

There are three manifstations that God has chosen in his God Head.
God is a Spirit. God made himself known as Father.
God manifested himself in flesh. Son.
God manifested himself as the comforter. Holy Ghost
These are manifstations of God.
Water, ice, steam but all are still water.
When there is no more need for salvation (blood of Christ) God will become all and all.
[1 Cor 15:28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There is not and I repete not three Gods, but three manifstations of the one God. Jesus is the fulness of the God head bodly.

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 10:27 PM

Yes, he was made in all points as us.
He had a soul, body, and spirit and so do we.

He wasn't exactly like us. He had no earthly father like we do.

Truthseeker

03-26-2003, 10:30 PM

In a sense I believe in an eternal son I guess.

Jesus spoke of the glory he had from the beginning with the father.

John said Jesus was man before him.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe he was in bodily form from the beginning.

This is a heavy in depth subject which we must seek him for more understanding.

Adoniyah

03-26-2003, 10:49 PM

Sis,

You are 100% right.

However, I think that you do not disagree with Jbenjesus. He answered a question very beautifully, which was presented to him from a different perspective of the same truth that you hold.

The questioner to whom he responded was trying to intimate that some believe that Jesus was two different spirits, one human and one God, which he, in a mistaken manner, contends against, maintaing that the spirit of the man Jesus, at the time of his birth, was God, which is eternal. If this was so, the human spirit of Jesus is nothing more or less than eternal sonship. This concept is error, which Jbenjesus so beautifully pointed out, equating it with Trinitarinism which concept they hold, being the only way that they can affirm their doctrine that "God eternally exist in three coequal persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

I do not believe that there is a disparity in your belief and that of Jbenjesus, just a misunderstanding of perspective.

But, I am not going to be drawn into the deviation of discussion. I will return to your question of the "last Adam." Be patient. I have had a number of people to send me e-mails that need some answers. I want to answer all of them also. They are very important.

jbenjesus

03-27-2003, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by light
There is not and I repete not three Gods, but three manifstations of the one God. Jesus is the fulness of the God head bodly. Thank you for the enlightening, insightful, never before heard of information, Light.

Your preaching to the choir. Do you realize that. We know this!

Would you mind sticking to the question of the thread?

It's more detailed then the standard stuff we get in Oneness 101 class.

If not, please open another thread, separate from this one, so this one can stay focused on the issue presented from the very beginning of this thread.

How do you manage to create such friciton and confusion among the threads of Bro. Blume, Bro. Strange, and myself? Never mind.

Don't answer that!!!

And if you feel you must answer it, open your own thread!

Please...

Thank you, Light, I appreciate you complying with my humble request.

Adoniyah

03-27-2003, 02:18 PM

Brother J, you said:

It's more detailed then the standard stuff we get in Oneness 101 class.

That is really funny.

The brother seldom gets anything right. He believes that Jesus learned to do good and shun evil by eating honey and butter. But, at least let us be thankful that he is Oneness.:D

Adoniyah

03-28-2003, 12:39 AM

Sis,

you asked these questions:

Bro.Strange,
In the light of what you have posted would you elaborate on
Jesus the second Adam.In Genesis God made Adam of the dust of the ground...note that before he made Adam..he spoke the dust into existance...then he made him of what was already in existance by the power of his word.Jesus however was made a different way as the Word was spoken into the womb of a woman who was made after the fallen nature of man.The orginal Adam was made of undaunted material.It seems to me that God
did it this time in reverse...

I Cor 41 - 48: " [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual".

Jesus the last Adam, was made into the state that he is in now. Jesus was not born of Mary a quickening spirit.. In the beginning, the Bible says in Hebrews that he was made in all points like unto his brethern. Not that he (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit from the beginning of creation nor was he made a quickening spirit in the womb of Mary, or in the manger at Bethlehem. Yet he was made a quickening spirit.

We understand that he was not first made a quickening spirit. In respect to Jesus being made a quickening spirit, the last verse in the text above said that he was first a natural man with the use of the words, "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural..." Unlike the prefallen first Adam, the last Adam was made a natural man before he was made a quickening spirit.

We see clearly that this naturally born man, born of woman was not at first both Lord and Christ. There had to be someone that could first be made both Lord and Christ. Jesus, the man is testified by scripture, that he was MADE BOTH Lord and Christ.

2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

It is plain that he that was made Lord, is a Spirit man living in a state unlike the natural state that he occupied before he was made both, having been made a quickening Spirit. That is, he was made a life giving spirit by the definition of "quickening." He was first natural and then that which is spiritual.

Adam, in his state of innocense was made a spirit man from the beginning having fellowship with God. As said before, man is a spirit that lives in a sensual body. Before the fall, the spirit of the first Adam was so very highly lifted up above his sensual body that he was scarcely aware of his sensual body. In fact, he did not even know that he was naked before his fall. That is the meaning of the fall. His spirit, having been severed from God by his rebellion, falling deep into his physical body, becoming corporeal and sensual, so much so that in time man became almost totally unaware of the spirit world, except by some faint memory of long ago. He who was made spiritual in the beginning, now in the fall, became a natural or sensual man, blighted by death.

Having been severed from the quickening spirit, who alone is the Lord, Adam from that time fell into grossness and darkness which included death
.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The "him that was to come," is spoken of Jesus, the last Adam. For the purpose of redemption, Jesus endured every temptation that we have endured, being tempted in all points that we are tempted, but without sin. How was he able to do this being a natural man?

Being born first a natural man, the road to glory for Jesus was laid out before him. He learned obedience by the things that he suffered. He grew in wisdom. He grew in favor with both God and man. He was made in all points like unto his brethern. That road would lead him through temptations, combats, battles, sufferings and rejection. Yet, in it all, he was obedient, as Paul said of himself, he was not disobedient to that heavenly vision. He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. He overcame the world, the flesh and the devil through his obedience...and yes...he even overcame death, the last enemy to be destroyed, introduced into the world by the disobedience of the first Adam.. Jesus said, "...behold I am alive forever more."
Now, I may be reinterating a few thoughts that I have set forth in earlier posts, but I am leading up to something.

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

There is a principle in nature by which certain species are elevated from a lower state of glory to another higher state of glory. Consider the tadpole that becomes a frog by the transformation that he undergoes. Consider the glory of the lava of an insect that evolves into that of the pupa and finally into a beautiful butterfly. This same great mystery of change or transformation in nature is seen in this 2 Cr. 3:18 by the Spirit of the Lord.

In that verse, fix your attention upon the word "changed." This word is from the Greek word "Metamorphoo." It is where we get our English word, "metamorphosis." A metamorphosis is that mysterious process of transformation that elevates things such as an earthbound catepillar from its lower glory into the glory of the Monarch Butterfly flying freely in the air. Metamorphosis is also a mysterious process that works in us also.

Jesus, from his birth had the power of God in his human spirit without measure. By that mysterious power of the seed of the Word, so programed to produce the fruit or the eventual predestined form or glory, wrought forth a state in the natural man of Nazareth of whom we know today as both Lord and Christ.

The seed of the Word will have only one eventual outcome. That outcome is the metamorphosis of the man in whom the seed so dwells. We, as it was Christ, are changed, beholding his glory even as he beheld the glory of his own Father that lived in him.
The first Adam, by the perversion of the Word was changed into a lower glory, that we know today as the fall. The last Adam by keeping the Word, became both Lord and Christ being glorified into a higher glory, yea, even being made a quickening spirit.

We see instances of the effects of the metamorphosis working in him from time to time during his ministry. We see it particularly well in the episode with three of his disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration. It was there that Moses and Elijah appeared with whom he had discourse. It was there that his glory shone forth as the brightness of the sun, so much so that his clothing glistened.

We know that there is only ONE Lord. We also know that Jesus is that Lord. Further we know that Jesus did not live before his birth, yet the Lord is eternal and from eternity. Jesus at some period of time was so much united with God as to be known as that one Lord. Thus it is said that he was MADE both Lord and Christ. He was MADE a quickening Spirit.

Having been raised up to a glory by the power of the seed of the Word that programs all life after its own kind bringing forth fruit in which is the seed after its own kind, He is the promised seed as promised to Abraham, but he is also the product of the seed for it is in the fruit that the seed exist that has power to produce after its own kind.

The seed is the Word. Jesus is the Word of God. The finished product of the seed is seen in the glory of the resurrected Lord having all power, full of grace and truth, whose majesty exceed all regal splendor or glory of this natural world. His glory transends by far the glory of a thousand potentates of worldly fame.

II Cor. 3:18, " But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord".

Now in creation all things were created and brought forth after its own kind. Grass, grain, fowl, fish, cattle and all including man had seed to produce its own sepecies after its own kind. Though the first Adam was of the human species, he was never MADE Lord. He was never made a quickening spirit. He was never put here to become an object of worship. The object of worship is the Lord alone. Yet, we find a man born a natural man that was made a spiritual, life giving man. Yes, made the Lord of glory by the process of the mystery of metamorphosis, being changed from image to image and from glory to glory. Thus he became the last Adam, the first born of a new creation or a new species of spiritual man.

After his metamorphis or "change" was complete, being fully glorified, we then had a brand new species walking the face of the earth for forty days, holding conversations with and teaching his disciples. A natural man has now been transformed by the "metamorphoo" into a higher species, a brand new creation.. This man is the last Adam, the beginning of a new creation.

This is a greatly abbreviated version to the rather long post that I made the other day which was lost. However, I hope that you will be blessed, or in some way helped by this anyway.

I will add one more contribution to this thread by way of conclusion. I will write of "Christ, Our Prototype."

OurLordisone

03-28-2003, 10:27 AM

Bro Adinoyah I just want to clarify something: do you believe that the man Jesus christ Christ is a man like us in FLesh that The fullness of GOd dwelt in ?

GOd BLess
OurLordisone

ddc101

03-28-2003, 10:46 AM

Thank you Brother Strange you have encouraged me on in further personal study.lv sis.c

ddc101

03-28-2003, 10:50 AM

Bro.Jbenjesus,
You misquoted the word.Jesus was not like us in all points.

Heb 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
(KJV)

The word says he was in all points tempted like we are,yet without sin.Lot of difference.lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-28-2003, 12:03 PM

Thank you Sis.

btw, I think that the scripture that brother Jbenjesus was alluding to is found in Heb. 2:17, which states that in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethern.

Ourlordisone:

I personally have no idea what state of condition the flesh of Jesus is presently in. I do know from scriptures that the fullness of God dwelt in him

Sandy

03-28-2003, 01:28 PM

Adoniyah,

The descriptions you used in the natural realm regarding metamorphosis is a beautiful way of describing how the abiding Spirit of Christ within us changes us as well. Because our hope is in Him doing this, and not of ourselves. But what is also awesome is the fact that the Lord even put the example of this before us in a creature not so pretty, into one that is beautiful in the end.

It reminded me of a vision I had, but also reminded me of something that happened about 3 years ago too. Cody had this butterfly land on his shoulder one day, staying there until it died later on in the day. And everytime someone would try to move it, it would fly back on him.

I have not read all of the posts on this subject. Neither do I know who is right about this as well. The first time I even considered this issue was a few years ago while posting on Higher Fire, their discussing this on there. So for now, am just going to read about it. But wanted to coment on what you wrote in the above post to Sister Cooper. Because it is not our own might or power that changes us, but His Spirit that does it as we submit to Him.

Adoniyah

03-28-2003, 03:16 PM

Amen Sister Sandy.

As we behold his glory, as in a glass, we are changed into the same image from glory to glory, by the same spirit.

jbenjesus

03-28-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by ddc101
Bro.Jbenjesus,
You misquoted the word.Jesus was not like us in all points.

Heb 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
(KJV)

The word says he was in all points tempted like we are,yet without sin.Lot of difference.lv sis.c However, let's look at the two scriptures in question more closely, shall we? (BTW, thank Jesus for e-sword!):

Hebrews 2:16-17 KJV+ - For1063 verily1222 he took not on1949, 3756 him the nature of angels;32 but235 he took on1949 him the seed4690 of Abraham.11 (17) Wherefore3606 in2596 all things3956 it behooved3784 him to be made like unto3666 his brethren,80 that2443 he might be1096 a merciful1655 and2532 faithful4103 high priest749 in things4314 pertaining to God,2316 to make reconciliation for2433 the3588 sins266 of the3588 people.2992

Hebrews 4:15 KJV+ - For1063 we have2192 not3756 a high priest749 which cannot1410, 3361 be touched with the feeling of4834 our2257 infirmities;769 but1161 was in2596 all points3956 tempted3985 like as2596, 3665 we are, yet without5565 sin.266

in2596

G2596
κατά
kata
Thayer Definition:
1) down from, through out
2) according to, toward, along
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary particle

all things3956

G3956
πᾶς
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

I never said in my quote which scripture it came from, but based on these findings, I really didn't misquote the scriptures.

One verse was translated in the KJV "in all points" and another was translated "in all things". But delving into the exact Greek word used (2596 and 3956) they are actually the same two words.

So it seems I really didn't misquote.

"In all things" or "in all points" He was made like unto His brethren (humanity).

"In all things" or "in all points" He was tempted like we are.

No mis-representation.

But thank you. It made me go back and look a bit more closely at things we may simply overlook in our eagerness to make a point.

He was tempted and made like us "in all points" or "in all things"

ddc101

03-29-2003, 09:31 AM

Bro.J,
I do not believe the Word teaches that Jesus was a regular man just like us born with the Holy Ghost who changed as time went along.If he was then why was he worshipped from birth.Those shepherds paid homage as also did the wise men when they arrived later on.I feel from reading the word that Jesus was made like us physically but spiritually he was not like us.In fact the things that come to mind and I am leaving room for those of you who see things different or maybe have more revelation on this that I can learn from so don't get riled and slap me with your bible!!!

Gen 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(KJV)

6754 tselem (tseh'-lem);

from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:

KJV-- image, vain shew.

6754 tselem (tseh'-lem);

from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:

KJV-- image, vain shew.

3666 homoioo (hom-oy-o'-o);

from 3664; to assimilate, i.e. compare; passively, to become similar:

KJV-- be (make) like, (in the) liken (-ess), resemble.

Its like what I was discussing with Bro.Strange.God made Adam to resemble him.Then Jesus came and resembled man.Its the first and second Adam teaching again.He was born in the image of man but he was the first born of many brethren.He did not have to be born again.But he came in flesh to be our ensample that through him we might overcome sin in the flesh.He simply came to redeem us from our sinful state.Not only did he overcome sin in the flesh but he provided the blood sacrifice so desperately needed by a lamb without spot.Jesus Christ reversed the curse.
People want to make things into so much more than they are but Calvary is very simple.It paved the road back to relationship or reconciliation with out by taking what had become perverse and lining it back out.By taking what was vile and washing it out with red blood.

Heb 2:17-18
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
(KJV)

We cannot separate the sonship from its purpose.
Nor can we separate the word from God

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(KJV)

5319 phaneroo (fan-er-o'-o);

from 5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively):

KJV-- appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).
The sonship was a work done by God that reconciled flesh to spirit again.The glorification of Jesus dealt with his flesh.He came to recocile Spirit and flesh just as Adam and he had the relationship in the garden orginally.God walked with man in the cool of the day and they had fellowship.This is what the work of redemption is all about.We need to repent and turn from sin and be able to receive God in our earthly temples and be transformed into his image.Being that we were born in the image of sinful flesh since the fall of man.

1 Cor 15:49-54
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(KJV)

2 Cor 3:18
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(KJV)

Col 3:10
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
(KJV)

Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(KJV)

I want to say thank you to Bro.J and Bro.Strange for causing me to think and causing me to dig in the Word of God.He is going to bless you for this.lv sis.c

light

03-29-2003, 05:45 PM

Sis C. you said:

>>>I do not believe the Word teaches that Jesus was a regular man just like us born with the Holy Ghost who changed as time went along. If he was then why was he worshipped from birth. Those shepherds paid homage as also did the wise men when they arrived later on.<<<
Sis you are so right Jesus did not evolve. There is no bible to support some type of metamorphosis taking place in Jesus. You are right when you say Jesus was not a regular man like us. Which one of us was born of a virgin?
[Isa 7:14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah said God would give Israel a sign. The sign was: “a virgin would have a child“. How would Israel know if Mary was a virgin or not. As far as man was concerned the birth of Jesus was just another birth, BUT to those that were tuned in to Gods word, knew this was the virgin birth; this was the savior because they recognized the signs. The prophets of old had prophesied of the birth of Jesus, and the wise men understood these prophesies.

The wise men followed a moving star that led them to Jesus.

(Mat 2:9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
(Mat 2:10) When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

The shepherds knew he was the savior because the angles told them

[Luke 2:11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

The angles said he was born this day, they told them where to find him (City of David) and how to recognize him. ( in a manger in swaddling clothes)

[Luke 2:12] And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

They knew to worship him because #1 prophesies. #2 The angles told them who he was.

jbenjesus

03-29-2003, 08:38 PM

I do not believe the Word teaches that Jesus was a regular man just like us born with the Holy Ghost who changed as time went along.If Jesus was not born a "regular man" (as you put it) and if He did not change as time went along, how do you explain the apparent difference in the man Jesus Christ before and after His resurrection?

Something changed?

That man was no longer the same, and the distinction that was evident before the resurrection is no longer existent after the resurrection.

Again, the point is there was a difference in the man Jesus Christ before and after the resurrection. The distinction between his humanity and His deity was readily existent before the resurrection. Afterward, that disctinction seems to no longer to exist.

Hence, we see the disciples speaking of Him as "Christ, Son of the Living God" before the resurrection, but after we see them speak of Him in a differnent "more perfect" light (edited).

The light that we all should walk should coincide with what the apostles confessed:

Timothy confesses, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Paul confesses, "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

Peter echoes Paul's confession in saying, "the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ..." and "...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (I Peter 1:1,11).

John confesses, "...even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (I John 5:20).

None of these type of confessions were made before the resurrection.If he was then why was he worshipped from birth.I'm pretty sure Bro. Strange already answered that.

To put it simply, He was like us in all points. What was different was that the Holy Spirit was within the spirit of the man Christ Jesus, WITHOUT MEASURE. The total quality of God was within the man Christ Jesus.Its like what I was discussing with Bro.Strange.God made Adam to resemble him.Then Jesus came and resembled man.Regarding this, we know God made man in His own image, and we know that the express image of God was Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:3). So God made man, according to His foreknowledge, in the image His own manifestation in the flesh.

His manifestation in the flesh was actually the "prototype" of Adam.

I don't think I have any disagreement with anything else you shared.

I'm glad this thread has progressed as it has. Thank Sis. Cooper and Adoniyah.

Let's get in deeper, shall we?

ddc101

03-30-2003, 04:33 PM

The difference was the shed blood.I don't see Jesus as a man who progressed to the status of God.But as God in a human body recociling the world to himself.It was the body that needed glorification not God.It was the body that needed redemption not
God.I don't think there was any other spirit or person inside of the body of Jesus Christ than that of Almighty God.
Now the word describes the church as his body.Though our spirits are resurrected by the power of the Holy Ghost it is still our
bodies that need redemption.lv sis.c

Adoniyah

03-30-2003, 09:52 PM

Sis,

It is obvioius to me, from what you have said in your last post, you have not grasped the truths that I have illustrated seeing that you said there, things that I never suggested in the least.

Did someone confuse you trying to lead you away? Just a feeling that I had.

But then, it's ok. I am not out to prove anything. However, I do feel frustrated as though I have wasted an awful lot of valuable time.

I had a similar feeling this week end as I pled with a young man for his soul. He insisted that he was a good man and would do no harm to anyone. He enjoyed his beer and could not see how it was wrong. MY heart went out to the man as I wept for him, seeing that he was lost even though he felt that he was alright. I felt so frustrated as I left. But that is a soul. I will go back and deal with him again.

However, believe those things that I have illustrated or not, it is not a salvation issue. Therefore, I do not feel an urgency to press the point. There is no need.

In fact, I let this thread go a long time before I entered in upon it, thinking that I should not. Maybe someday I will learn to trust my initial thoughts and not waste so much good time.

jbenjesus

03-31-2003, 07:12 AM

There are many silent listeners unbeknownst to you that are heeding.

Maybe not understanding :), but God causes the growth.

And growth my dear brother, takes time.

Be patient.

I didn't get most anything you wrote regarding the "s/Spirit" last time you wrote, but nevertheless, the impression never left my mind. It is much more clear today than it was amidst the grey clouds of dust the first time I heard it.

Thank you for sharing.

Elaboration is good, debate is unhealthy and unnecessary.

When it gets to that point brother, just back off pleasently.

Nobody sees everything the first time its presented.

Come to think of it, you may be wrong in all of it!!!

What a humbling experience to motivate us to seek Him more earnestly to be able to understand and convey Him more accurately.

Just don't tow the party line for the sake of acceptance from men.

Adoniyah

03-31-2003, 07:13 AM

PS...

Jbenjesus:

Before I post my final contribution here, I want to acknowledge that I see that you have a good grasp of the truths set forth in these posts on this thread. You may have been able to teach me them better than I illustrated them here.

However, I need you to help me out here if you are inclined to.

How is it that a perfectly lucid person can see so many scriptures such as:

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, WHICH WAS MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID according to the flesh

Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, WHO WAS MADE A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

Hbr 2:17 Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, THAT GOD HATH MADE THAT SAME JESUS, whom ye have crucified, BOTH Lord and Christ

and many, many more besides. Yet, inspite of overwhelming proof from the scriptures they are either unable, unwilling or otherwise will not see the truths contained here, rather willing not to confess that Jesus humbled himself down into a state of lower glory according to Phil. 2:7-8 and was subsequently exalted by the power of the change effected by glorification as expressed in the following 9th verse.

Help me to understand how it is that they cannot see that Jesus, MADE OF the seed of David, a natural man, nothing unlike you and I, according to the scriptures, MADE a little lower than the angels, as the first Adam was according to Heb. 1:7, who, unlike the first Adam lived a sinless life by the God of Heaven that lived in him to the fullness from birth, MADE a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world, was MADE both Lord and Chirst, MADE perfect through sufferings, all according to SCRIPTURE, yet are unable to see that there came about a CHANGE in Jesus from a lower glory to his present glory. Help me to understand this great mystery.

As far as light is concerned, you need not address that situation at all. He is adrift on the good ship lolly pop without a tether or a clue. He needs to go eat mo honey and butter. He thinks that the virgnity of Mary at the birth of Jesus was a sign. HEHEHEHE.

jbenjesus

03-31-2003, 07:51 AM

Holding to a teaching of the Oneness of God that was formerly taught to us believing that that teaching held all the truths and had all the answeres so no further revelation that may even seem apparently contradictory to that will be received.

For example,

I came to receive the revelation of the Oneness of God, by simply reading David Bernard's excellent book concerning this.

This book is a great book that I recommend to anyone intersted in researching and studying this, however, over a period of time I had questions.

"Upon further review" (NFL football) some of the plays that we were so sure of at first, don't stand upon the light of instant replay or review.

Some of the questions that I had later were concerning the subject of this thread.

Some of the details that I overlooked at first, I wanted answers on now, years later.

If I wanted to stay closed minded, as if I received all the revelation and understanding regarding this subject, I would never listen anyone who contradicted this study in even the slightest way.

But there are certain scriptures that "Upon further review" do need more explaining. You have addressed just some of them in your previous post.

It really is a matter of a change in paradigm.

Sometimes we can get so encased in a particular paradigm of belief that it becomes a trapping fortress that we can't get out of.

Sometimes, we need a paradigm shift. Maybe not so much a change, but a shift in certain areas in order that more light would shine in.

JMHO...

light

03-31-2003, 08:59 AM

Did you say you were 63 or was it 3 mr. strange.

Adoniyah

03-31-2003, 11:39 AM

Excellent post, brother J.

That which you call a paradigm shift is what the scriptures call "walking in the light." I have said many times on this board that the revelation of God is dynamic. However, many see it as static, unwilling to walk in the light. That is an attribute of the carnal nature...we do not like to change. The carnal man must be crucified again today as Paul said; "I die daily."

It is not comfortable to the carnal man to walk in the light. Sometimes it means the severence of long standing relationships. Sometimes it causes friends to question you and wonder about what turnip truck you fell off of. Sometimes, walking in the light is very humbling, breaking the ourward man. There are many other problems in the flesh involved in the act of walking in the light, not the least is seeing the Word rejected which you esteem so highly as to be more precious than all the gold in Fort Knox.

One that finds a treasure hid in the field must sell all that he has to buy that field. One must be willing to give in exchange all predisposed opinions, theories, and doctrines for the price of buying that field. Sometimes it even costs one's life. Yet, the great pearl of truth is worth it all.

Many do not see that the revelation of God as being dynamic, believing that what they had 20 years ago is good enough for today. They do not realized that their yesterday's bread is now moldy and what they had 20 years ago has long ago faded away leaving only an outer form of godliness. God is not static. He moves onward. We must be willing to follow him, lest the light advances beyond reach, leaving us in darkness.

I had intended to make one more post entitled, "Jesus, Our Prototype," which would further deal with our own human spirits. However, I will dispense with that idea. From the title, you will see where I would be going with that anyway.

jbenjesus

03-31-2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by light
Did you say you were 63 or was it 3 mr. strange. You e-mailed me personally regarding my comments (though light-hearted), and now you commence in the same type of behavior with Bro. Strange.

Hypocrite comes to mind.

light

03-31-2003, 06:51 PM

Yes you are right Br. J it was hypocrital.At times the best of us yield to temptation.

In a moment of weakness I succumbed to his continual smart aleck comments.

I guess the reason for the failure is not important. Whould you please forgive me?

jbenjesus

04-01-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by light
Yes you are right Br. J it was hypocrital.At times the best of us yield to temptation.

In a moment of weakness I succumbed to his continual smart aleck comments.

I guess the reason for the failure is not important. Whould you please forgive me? Forgiven.

light

04-09-2003, 03:17 PM

Here is a quote from the book
The life story of
Andrew Bar David Urshan

Quote:
Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me. “Then Jesus was led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil” Mal.3:1 Matt. 4:1

When was he led? After he was filled with the Holy Ghost. By whom was he led? By the spirit. Why? To be tempted by the devil. And Satan said, “if thou be the son of God.” Satan is, and always will be, against the sonship of Jesus Christ.
end quote
Notice Br. Urshans words “After he was filled with the Holy Ghost.”

Br. Urshan goes on to say we must stay with the word just as Jesus did.
“IT IS WRITTEN”
Quote
“If you and I would always stand on the word instead of on feelings, experiences, and blessings; there would be nothing that could keep us from going on from Victory to
Victory” end quote.
The word says Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost at his baptism.

The following was copied from a study of Br. Dulle.

Understanding the purpose for Jesus' baptism may also be helpful. There appears to be four purposes. In Jesus' own words He said the purpose was "to fulfill all righteousness." Jesus was giving us some sort of an example to follow.
Secondly, Jesus' baptism served as an official and public inauguration of His earthly ministry (John 1:26-27, 31). It was at this time that Jesus was revealed to Israel as their Messiah.
The third purpose of Jesus' baptism was that it was there where Jesus was anointed by the Father with the Holy Ghost and power for ministry. I believe this to be the most important reason of all.
The Old Testament prophets, priests, and kings were always anointed in some way to signify that they were chosen of God (Exodus 28:41; 29:7; I Kings 19:16). The oil with which they were anointed was symbolic of the Holy Ghost. Jesus, then, in like manner was to be anointed by the Holy Ghost since He came to fulfill the roles of prophet, priest, and king (Psalm 45:7-8; Isaiah 61:1). Instead of being anointed with oil that was symbolic of the Holy Ghost, Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God Himself. The priests in particular were washed with water and anointed for the purpose of consecration to their office (Exodus 29:4, 7). This may have some bearing upon why Jesus was baptized in water. Surely He was not baptized because of sin, because He was sinless. He was baptized as a washing for His ordination as the High Priest for all mankind (See Hebrews 7).
This anointing Jesus received does not mean that He became God or the Christ at His baptism. This was merely the point at which God anointed Him for ministry. Jesus had to be anointed for His calling and ministry in the same way we are anointed for ours.1 To demonstrate this, notice that it was not until after this anointing at Christ's baptism that He performed His first miracle (John 2:11; anointed by God in 1:32-33). Why didn't Jesus perform any miracles before this time? Why was it that God did not use Him to preach and heal until after He was over thirty years old (Luke 3:23)? It was because the time for His earthly ministry had not yet come, and therefore God's anointing and power was not with Him to do so. Unless it is the will of God to heal someone, they will not be healed. If He does not heal the sick, raise the dead, give a word of knowledge, a prophetic word, vision, or revelation, none of these things will happen. We canot force God to do anything through us. They can only be done in accordance to divine will. God, for whatever purpose, chose not to do anything substantial (pertaining to ministry) through Jesus until He was over thirty years of age.
This does not mean that Jesus was not God before His baptism, but demonstrates that Jesus ministered as a man anointed by the Holy Ghost. It must be remembered that Jesus did not work miracles because He was God, He worked miracles as a man anointed by the Holy Ghost in the same sense as we do. It is not that God could not annoint Him to work miracles before His baptism, but that He chose not to. Jesus, just as we ourselves, could not do anything apart from God's will. Jesus plainly said that He could not do anything by Himself, but He only did that which He saw the Father do (John 5:19-20, 30, 36). This is due to the fact that Jesus operated within the realm of any human being. In accordance with that thought, note that it was not until after Jesus' baptism that He stood in the synagogue at Nazareth and proclaim the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy in Himself saying, "The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the LORD" (Luke 4:18; anointed by God in 3:21-23). It was not until after Christ's anointing at His baptism that this Scripture was fulfilled. Before He was anointed at His baptism, it was still prophetic in nature, although the One who would fulfill it was alive and well in the world.[/U]

Finally, the purpose of Jesus' baptism was to reveal the identity of the Messiah to John the Baptist. John's ministry was to prepare the hearts of Israel for the LORD to visit them without consuming them in His wrath for their sins (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1-7; 4:5-6). That is why John came preaching repentance from sin, demanding to see visible evidence stemming from this repentance. He brought the people to understand their moral obligations and the importance of having one's heart right with God (Matthew 3:1-2, 5-12; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3-14). John preached in the wilderness telling the people that although he baptized them with water to repentance, there was One coming after Him who was greater than he, and He would baptize them with the Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:11-12; Mark 1:7-8; Luke 3:16-17; John 1:23, 26, 30-31). John's ministry was to prepare the people for, and point the way toward the Messiah. John, however, did not know who this Messiah was (John 1:30-31). He did not know that His own cousin was God manifest in the flesh, the anointed Messiah for Israel and all the earth (Luke 1:34-41; John 1:30-31).End quote

Jesus as a man needed to be annointed with the Holy Ghost.

jbenjesus

04-09-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by light quoting Bro. Urshan and Dulle
The word says Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost at his baptism.

Secondly, Jesus' baptism served as an official and public inauguration of His earthly ministry (John 1:26-27, 31). It was at this time that Jesus was revealed to Israel as their Messiah.

The third purpose of Jesus' baptism was that it was there where Jesus was anointed by the Father with the Holy Ghost and power for ministry. I believe this to be the most important reason of all.
Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God Himself.

This anointing Jesus received does not mean that He became God or the Christ at His baptism. This was merely the point at which God anointed Him for ministry. Jesus had to be anointed for His calling and ministry in the same way we are anointed for ours.1 To demonstrate this, notice that it was not until after this anointing at Christ's baptism that He performed His first miracle (John 2:11; anointed by God in 1:32-33). Why didn't Jesus perform any miracles before this time? Why was it that God did not use Him to preach and heal until after He was over thirty years old (Luke 3:23)? It was because the time for His earthly ministry had not yet come, and therefore God's anointing and power was not with Him to do so.

God, for whatever purpose, chose not to do anything substantial (pertaining to ministry) through Jesus until He was over thirty years of age.

This does not mean that Jesus was not God before His baptism, but demonstrates that Jesus ministered as a man anointed by the Holy Ghost. It must be remembered that Jesus did not work miracles because He was God, He worked miracles as a man anointed by the Holy Ghost in the same sense as we do. It is not that God could not annoint Him to work miracles before His baptism, but that He chose not to.

In accordance with that thought, note that it was not until after Jesus' baptism that He stood in the synagogue at Nazareth and proclaim the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy in Himself saying, "The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the LORD" (Luke 4:18; anointed by God in 3:21-23). It was not until after Christ's anointing at His baptism that this Scripture was fulfilled. Before He was anointed at His baptism, it was still prophetic in nature, although the One who would fulfill it was alive and well in the world.[/U]

Jesus as a man needed to be annointed with the Holy Ghost.
When was he led? After he was filled with the Holy Ghost.
I don't know Bro. Urshan to well. I know he's pretty popular among the apostolic community. However, after searching I have yet to find scripture that says Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost". I would not use this phrase in regards to Jesus.

I don't want to get into semantics though, as you did, because I understand what Bro. Urshan meant. I don't think he meant that literally, as if the man Jesus never had the Spirit and was then filled with the Spirit at age 30.

I agree, as you said, that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:38).

I took the liberty of cutting out parts of your quote to highlight some very good points by Bro. Dulle.

No one on this thread has said that Jesus was not anointed by the Holy Ghost.

But as Adoniyah, pointed out in a previous post, scriptural reasoning and questioning would have to ask, "Why didn't the man Jesus Christ sin before He reached 30 years of age?"

According you "light", the man Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit in Him at birth. If that summation is true, then how, outside the power of the pure, perfect, Holy Spirit did the man Jesus Christ not sin before 30 years of age?

The reality is that the Holy Spirit was in the man Jesus Christ without measure from birth. So that when He lived his first 30 years, completely dependent upon the Spirit, He did not sin. He overcame all temptations from birth to death, by the power of the Spirit in Him.

Not the flesh.

In my own words, the baptism (the anointing of Jesus with the Holy Ghost) was the activation point, that now the man Jesus Christ was "allowed", in a sense, to publicly work in the power of the Holy Spirit, whereas before He wasn't.

I think Dulle made many good points in regards to that.

light

04-09-2003, 05:40 PM

I don't want to get into semantics though, as you did, because I understand what Bro. Urshan meant. I don't think he meant that literally, as if the man Jesus never had the Spirit and was then filled with the Spirit at age 30.

No Br. you don't know what he ment. As you stated you never met the man. Well Br. I did know the man. He spent many nights at my home when I lived in Cal. I know what he taught but did not want to say until I could find his book and prove it. I found his book today. .

But as Adoniyah, pointed out in a previous post, scriptural reasoning and questioning would have to ask, "Why didn't the man Jesus Christ sin before He reached 30 years of age?"

As Br. urshan told us many times, if it is not in the word don't teach it. What adoniayh is teaching is not in the word. They are his thoughts.
You can not reason the scriptures. God's ways are far above ours

The word tells us but adoniayh makes fun of it with hi HEHEHEHE mobutta etc.

jbenjesus

04-09-2003, 10:08 PM

Oh, I see now. You just have a bone to pick with Adoniyah so you're after him for every little nook and crany he states.

Alright I see now.

Very well. Since you know Bro. Urshan so well, why did you conveniently side step a very important point I made to you about Bro. Urshan's comment:However, after searching I have yet to find scripture that says Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost".
I find it very interesting that you had nothing to say about this point.

Since your such a "stickler" for the word, as you said, "As Br. urshan told us many times, if it is not in the word don't teach it", why didn't you use the same logic against your very close and special friend, Bro. Urshan?

You said, "What adoniayh is teaching is not in the word." If that indeed is true, why didn't you say the same thing to Bro. Urshan when he said that Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost"?

Jesus being "filled with the Holy Ghost" is not in the word. Do a search yourself.

If Bro. Urshan indeed did say, "if it is not in the word don't teach it" then Bro. Urshan should have never said Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost."

Look for it in whatever bible search program you have. Those words were never used in conjuction with Jesus.

Jesus anointed with the Holy Ghost. Yes.

Jesus filled with the Holy Ghost. No.

light

04-10-2003, 10:56 AM

[Luke 3:22] And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
[Luke 3:23] And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

WE know Jesus is not the Holy Ghost, so if Jesus had the Holy Ghost from birth how much did he have? The Holy Ghost is the Spirit is it not?

Verse 22 says the Holy Ghost descended, if Jesus had the Holy Ghost from birth why did it descend? Why didn’t it manifest it’s self by Jesus stretching forth his hand using the power you say he had from birth, and raise a dead man or some other miracle that a normal man could not do. The miracle that he could perform would have been the sign to John and Israel, just as well as a dove descending. The reason he didn'tis because the Spirit was not upon him yet.

Peter said God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and power.
If Jesus was all things from birth why did he increase in wisdom and favor with God? How could he receive more if he already had all power? More wisdom? More power? More favor?

After he was anointed with the Holy Ghost Luke said in chapter 4:1 Jesus being FULL of the Holy Ghost. [Luke 4:1] And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. When did this Spirit come UPON Jesus?

Lets look at prophecy. What does it have to say about Jesus and the Spirit?

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him : he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Now look at prophecy being fulfilled.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him , the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

The word says that when God put the Spirit on Jesus he would then begin to preach and do miracles.

God didn’t put his Spirit on him until he was baptized. He was then full of The Holy Ghost just as Br. Urshan said.

As for Adoniya, I never mentioned his name in my first post on 4/9/ 03. You brought it up in your reply.

This is not about Adoniya, or me, or for that matter about you. It’s about the word of God.

jbenjesus

04-10-2003, 11:30 AM

at the end of this post.

You still did not show in the scriptures this: Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost".

Since it is not in the scriptures, it should not be taught, according to you and Bro. Urshan.

You mentioned Adoniyah in the thread marked April 9, 2003 at 5:40 PM, your second of the day.

Here, let me quote you.What adoniayh is teaching is not in the word. They are his thoughts.If you allow Bro. Urshan, to make the statment that Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost" knowing full well that the figure of speech quoted is not used in conjunction with Jesus, then you must allow the same liberty to Adoniyah because that figure of speech is Bro. Urshan's thoughts.

Light, if you're going to come out with your own set of rules then play by them, or don't play at all.

You still have not answered this question:

If Jesus didn't not have the Holy Spirit at birth, as only you propose, then why was He worshipped by the wise men (Matt. 2:11)?

That would be and is the idolatry of man.

How did the man Jesus Christ not sin for the first 30 years of His life? Was it by his flesh or His Spirit?

Awaiting...

your "thoughts"...

light

04-10-2003, 09:56 PM

J asked:
If Jesus didn't not have the Holy Spirit at birth, as only you propose, then why was He worshipped by the wise men (Matt. 2:11)?
That would be and is the idolatry of man

Lets look at the word worship, what does it mean? What is this word saying?

Strong's number: 4352
Greek: proskuneo
Pronunciation: pros-koo-neh'-o

from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): --worship.

Nowhere in the word does it say or lead any one to believe they came to pray to the Savior. They came to pay homage to the birth of a King of the Jews. Nowhere does the scripture or history say they knew he was divine. The word Savior or Son of God is never used in conjunction with the wise men. To pay homage to a king was not idolatry. See other instances where people worshiped but were not praying or precipitating in religious worship. Matt18: 26 Matt20: 20 Luke14: 10.

.

How did the man Jesus Christ not sin for the first 30 years of His life? Was it by his flesh or His Spirit?

[Isa 7:15] Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
[Isa 7:16] For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

There are those that make fun of these scriptures. Personally, I would be afraid to but oh well.
Now you say Jesus had the Spirit at birth. With the Spirit comes all power, all wisdom, and all knowledge. [Luke 2:52] And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. You can’t increase if you have ALL.

If you will read the above, you will see that there is a period of time that Jesus doesn’t know to refuse evil. He has to learn to choose the good.

jbenjesus

04-11-2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by light
J asked:
If Jesus didn't not have the Holy Spirit at birth, as only you propose, then why was He worshipped by the wise men (Matt. 2:11)?
That would be and is the idolatry of man

Lets look at the word worship, what does it mean? What is this word saying?

Strong's number: 4352
Greek: proskuneo
Pronunciation: pros-koo-neh'-o

(literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): --worship.
.

How did the man Jesus Christ not sin for the first 30 years of His life? Was it by his flesh or His Spirit?

[Isa 7:15] Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
[Isa 7:16] For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

There are those that make fun of these scriptures. Personally, I would be afraid to but oh well.
Now you say Jesus had the Spirit at birth. With the Spirit comes all power, all wisdom, and all knowledge. [Luke 2:52] And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. You can’t increase if you have ALL.

If you will read the above, you will see that there is a period of time that Jesus doesn’t know to refuse evil. He has to learn to choose the good.
If your argument concerning the worship of Jesus by the wise men is true, then there isn't a problem worshipping man. According to you, worship has nothing to do with prayer.

But going by your definition of "worship" (disregarding the definition in context of verses in which "worship" is used all over the bible) it still means to prostrate oneself in homage, reverence, and/or adoration of another. So in essence, your saying, we can worship man and that would not be sin.

Light, would you worship another man? Let me ask it this way, would you bow down and prostrate yourself before someone else?

Hopefully your answer would be no.

Hopefully you would say that it is written, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. 4:10 or Luke 4:8).

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego wouldn't.

Again, I would say, that would be and is the idolatry of man.

However, if you were to worship Jesus in the days of His flesh (specifically before He was 30 years of age), it would not be idolatry of man for He was God manifest in the flesh, FROM BIRTH.

God is a Spirit. God was/is the Word and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, FROM BIRTH, not from His baptism.

His baptism as Jason Dulle, I and others have said in different ways was simply the demarcation point (point of activiation, if you will) to begin His public ministry and move publicly in the gifts of the Spirit (healings, miracles, etc.).

He was given the Spirit without measure from birth, for He was from birth, God manifest in the flesh.

He was not God manifest in the flesh - after His baptism.

He was God manifest in the flesh when the Word (God) was made flesh.

Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, AS A MAN. Just as any man would increase in wisdom and stature from babe to adult, so did this babe become a man.

The man Jesus Christ was a man in all points like us, but we already addressed that with Sis. Cooper in this thread so I won't reiterate. You can re-read that yourself.

Your reference regarding "butter and honey" is a description of Him learning obedience as a man refusing evil and chooseing good. That was true for His whole life. It says He learned obedience through His suffering.

This does not answer the question of the source of His overcoming temptation from birth to 30 years of age. You say, because you literally interpret that Is. passage, that he ate butter and honey and refused evil and choose good.

Well, that's your literal interpretation. IMHO, it lacks power.

I believe that He overcame at all points of His life, completely and utterly dependent upon the Spirit of God that was in Him without measure, from birth to death because...

God was the Word and the Word was made flesh, from birth, not baptism.

jbenjesus

04-11-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by jbenjesus
at the end of this post.

You still did not show in the scriptures this: Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost".

Since it is not in the scriptures, it should not be taught, according to you and Bro. Urshan.

You mentioned Adoniyah in the thread marked April 9, 2003 at 5:40 PM, your second of the day.

Here, let me quote you.If you allow Bro. Urshan, to make the statment that Jesus was "filled with the Holy Ghost" knowing full well that the figure of speech quoted is not used in conjunction with Jesus, then you must allow the same liberty to Adoniyah because that figure of speech is Bro. Urshan's thoughts.

Light, if you're going to come out with your own set of rules then play by them, or don't play at all.

Awaiting...

your "thoughts"...
Even though we disagree, but you did not address what I just quoted here regarding your rules of engagement and why you did not apply those same rules to Bro. Urshan.

light

04-11-2003, 10:14 AM

Br. J would you address these scriptures please? What do they say?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Jesus by reading Isa. confirms the prophecy that the spirit would come upon him.

jbenjesus

04-11-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by light

Br. J would you address these scriptures please? What do they say?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Jesus by reading Isa. confirms the prophecy that the spirit would come upon him. They say exactly what they say, "Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

Look at all the times the Spirit of the Lord came upon someone in the Old Covenant.

When the Lord came upon someone in the Old Covenant it was to fufill the will of Lord for that particular moment or circumstance.

Same for Jesus. When the Spirit of the Lord came upon Him, it was for the purpose of:

"This anointing Jesus received does not mean that He became God or the Christ at His baptism. This was merely the point at which God anointed Him for ministry. Jesus had to be anointed for His calling and ministry in the same way we are anointed for ours." - Jason Dulle

I don't disagree with this.

I put it this way, "His baptism as Jason Dulle, I and others have said in different ways was simply the demarcation point (point of activiation, if you will) to begin His public ministry and move publicly in the gifts of the Spirit (healings, miracles, etc.)."

In other words, I already answered this as well as others.

BTW, please stick to the subject of the thread as much as you can.

I see upon re-reading that your comments/questions have really sidetracked from the initial premise of the thread itself.

Thanks.

Adoniyah

04-11-2003, 07:38 PM

Brother J

I am leaving momentarily for the week end. Before I go I want to say that I've been chomping at the bits to jump in here but I have restrained myself since you are doing a splendid job. I see that you have a very analytical mind. I want you to continue to defend the truth in your splendid manner.

Study the Prophets such as Isa. 9:6 and ask yourself when did he become the things the Prophets said that he would be called whether it was from the time he was born or from the time he was baptized. Consider the many prophecies of him with this light.

Also consider how it was that the wise men come to be watching for him. Were they not told of the tradion of the "star that would arise out of Jacob probably a tradition first spoken to the wise men of whom Daniel was the chief in the land of the East.

Did not Daniel know of the coming of the one of whom he spoke of a fiery steam and of kingdom also of the Prophecy found in the 9th chapter, speaking of the Prince that would come.

I will not have anything to say about all of this because I see that you are doing an excellent job.

Well, anyway, are we all glad that Jesus finally got the Holy Ghost. One would wonder why it took him so long. I got the Holy Ghost when I was seven years old. I suppose God waited until Jesus finally repented and consecrated himself. Just think, if he would have eaten a lot more butter and honey he would probably gotten the Holy Ghost a lot sooner. What do you think? :)

jbenjesus

04-13-2003, 10:06 PM

Isaiah 7:14-16 KJV - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (15) Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. (16) For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Upon re-reading this thread and the latest questions by “light”, I noticed that when “light” answered the question on why didn’t the man Jesus Christ sin before 30 years of age, he quoted this scripture, but left out (I believe conveniently) the 14th verse. Thank you for the “highlight” Adoniyah.

Instead of answering whether the man Jesus Christ did not sin for the 1st 30 years of his life, whether by Spirit or the flesh, “light” gave the 15th and 16th verse of Isaiah as his answer. The 14th verse actually gives the answer I desired, but for some reason “light” didn’t use that verse as a reference.

It is a prophetic verse that says a virgin shall conceive a son, and that his name will be called Immanuel.

Now using scripture to interpret itself, Matthew quotes this very verse and applies it to the boy born of Mary, who they called Jesus.

Matthew 1:21-23 KJV - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (22) Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, (23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

The virgin being Mary brought forth a son conceived of the Holy Ghost. Matthew interprets for us, conveniently, how to interpret this word “Immanuel”. It is to be interpreted God with us. So at the birth the son, Jesus, was known as “God with us”.

Isaiah 9:6 KJV - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Using this scripture, we see that this same child would also be called, among other names, “the mighty God” and “the everlasting Father. The son was given at birth. The very verse tells us that was when the son was given. At birth he would be all these names.

Not baptism…

As “light” would have us to believe.

Deity was resident within this babe from birth. Since this is true, and we read “for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him]”, then we can say that Jesus, from birth, had the Spirit of God without measure. That’s why He never sinned.

If not, these scriptures would all be false, because they would be saying that this mere mortal man was “God with us”, “the mighty God”, and “the everlasting Father” without having the Spirit of God (Diety) within Him. It cannot be. It makes no sense at all.

John 1:1 KJV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Clearly this scripture tells us that God was the Word.

John 1:14 KJV - And the Word was made flesh…

This scripture tells us that God (the Word) was made flesh, became flesh, began to be flesh, came into existence in the flesh.

Jesus said, “God is Spirit” (John 4:24).

Since this is true I can also say, the Spirit was/is the Word.

The Spirit was made flesh, became flesh, began to be flesh, came into existence in the flesh.

The invisible Spirit (Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27) became visible by coming in the flesh of the man Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 KJV - Who is the image of the invisible God…

Since the man Jesus Christ was/is the image of the invisible God, when did this man come into existence (visible)?

At birth.

Not baptism.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…

When was God, a.k.a. the Word, a.k.a. the Spirit, manifest in the flesh?

The scriptures tell us at birth.

Not baptism.

I think this issue should be settled now.

jbenjesus

04-13-2003, 10:10 PM

Now, trying to connect this issue back to the premise of the thread, there were without question distinctions made between the spirit (of the man) and the Spirit (of God). The man Jesus Christ was completely and utterly dependent upon the Spirit of God. He was anointed (empowered) of God to do the works that He did. It was the Father in Him and through Him that accomplished these works. Not the man, but the Spirit within the man.

But these distinctions are only seen looking through the eyes before the resurrection/glorification perspective.

Notice Jesus never said, in the days of His flesh, EXPLICITLY He was God, before the resurrection/glorification. He alluded to it, but never came right out and said it. It wasn’t time yet. He always referred to Himself as the Son of God or the Son of man. This attitude of the man Jesus Christ coincides with the verse that says, “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:” (Phili. 2:6,7).

Even Peter in his great confession through revelation said Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matt. 16:16; John 6:69). He did not say that the man Jesus Christ was God. It would be inappropriate to say that at the time.

Just like now, it would be inappropriate to say “God is in Christ”. God is not “in Christ” Christ is God or God is Christ.

We would not say God is “in Christ” at present.

However, there was a point in time, where it would be appropriate to say “God was in Christ”.

When?

Before the resurrection/glorification, God was in Christ.

Acts 2:36 KJV – Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In Acts, Peter spoke of Jesus, in terms appropriate before the resurrection, “Jesus of Nazareth, approved of God” who did all of these miracles, signs, and wonders which “God did by him in the midst of you” (Acts 2:22). That coincides with the verse that says, “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). That would be a correct statement looking at this man, whom God was within, in the pre-resurrection/glorification state.

But Peter ended his sermon looking at this same man through the eyes of the post resurrection/glorification perspective and said that this same man, Jesus of Nazareth, that he had been speaking, was made both Lord (God) and Christ (man).

But now, this man is made both Lord and Christ. No more this “in” stuff.

He is both Lord (God) and Christ (man).

Now, I realize why Adoniyah used this example:

My wife, Patricia broke her arm, years before I ever met her. That is not to say that Patricia was my wife at the time. I am speaking from a post-marital perspective of a pre-marital event.

In this simple analogy, Patricia has always been Patricia. The only thing that changes was Patricia’s role or office, if you will. She was single, but now she’s married. But her person did not change. She was and will always be Patricia.

When we speak of the man Jesus Christ, we must take into account what perspective are we speaking of Him from?

It helps in properly communicating Him to others.

Man did not become God. What was hidden, has now been made manifest through the resurrection/glorification.

As Adoniyah has stated elsewhere concerning the distinctions they, “cannot now be drawn because they are so united as to be inextricably one.”

It’s all a matter of perspective.

Adoniyah

04-13-2003, 11:38 PM

Brother J

My eyes filled with tears as I read your last two posts. Precious, precious few have a clearer revelation of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is now obvious that you have been tracking my words on this cafe for many months. I am sure glad that I have remained consistent. :) btw, the wife's name is Marie, not Patricia. She is not very understanding about all my other wives. hahaha.

I do not believe that I shall ever need to be concerned about you wavering in this powerful knowledge. Just be careful. The Word says, "knowledge puffeth up."

However, once you have such a clear revelation as you have, the fundamentals are in place for greater truths concerning Jesus. The knowledge that you have come to have now brought you to the door of the Palace of Revelation. The door is now opened to the Palace and the parlor beckons your entrance.

There are hallways, closets, bedrooms, banquet rooms and ball rooms. There are even libraries, theaters, concert halls and yes, there are also museums in this great Palace of Revelation Knowledge.

The deeper you enter into it, the greater your temptation with the grand dame of all seductresses. She awaits you just beyond the portal. Her name is "Pride."

She, will tempt you with great words of heddy compliments, reminding you how wise that you have now become. She will tempt you in more ways than can possibly be imagine. However, if you will keep your eyes on Jesus, he will help you. He will help you to recognize her wiles as that of Jezebel of old.

Come on in, rest a while and savor the aroma of a new world filled with excited adventure as you prepare to rule as a king with the ONLY WISE POTENTATE.

jbenjesus

04-14-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Adoniyah
Brother J

My eyes filled with tears as I read your last two posts. Precious, precious few have a clearer revelation of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is now obvious that you have been tracking my words on this cafe for many months. I am sure glad that I have remained consistent. :) btw, the wife's name is Marie, not Patricia. She is not very understanding about all my other wives. hahaha.
Bro. I told you have been meditating on what you shared for many months with the Lord. You have been consistent.

Actually I used your analogy example, but "morphed" it to be personal to me.

My wife's name is Patricia. She actually did break her arm (severely) before we were married, so I felt I could now use that example uniquely for myself, while still being borrowed from you.

This whole issue for me has been slowly feeding me. Whatta' ya' know, His Word actually feeds us! As I have pondered these things, I am now looking into the verse that says, "He was made lower than the angels."

I've looked into it preliminarily, and realize it has as much to do with us, as it had to do with Jesus. It is our DESTINY!!!

But I won't get into that here. You can look in the forum under "Daily Word" and the thread is "Psalm 8:4-6 - Question..." (http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=278).

It's related, but still off the topic of this thread.

Thank you for your words of encouragement and warning.

I guard my heart to remain humble.

Hnovilla

04-16-2003, 04:29 PM

His Name is Jesus!

"...glorify thou me..."
"In the BEGINNING was the WORD..."
"...and God SAID [God SPOKE]..."

In the 'beginning', the "WORD" did not have a body. It was with God, and IS very God, itself. God SPOKE all things into existence, and there is not one thing made that was not spoken into existence [my translation].
The WORD 'became' flesh...that is, it 'dressed' itself in humanity. In Hebrew 10: 21, the author calls the body of flesh a "...veil..." The Apostle Paul said it was "...of the seed od David, AFTER THE FLESH..."
So the flesh, then, is the Son of God, but the WORD is the one true God who was "...in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."
Jesus said, "No one COMES to the Father, but by me [the sacrificial lamb of God]."
Jesus was either a real human, or he was not. If he was, then he had a human spirit the same as all men. If he was not, then he lived and operated under different conditions and circustances as the rest of us.
NO! Jesus did NOT need to receive the Holy Spirit the same as we, he was BORN with the Holy Spirit abiding in him. But WE need to have that same Holy Spirit abiding in US!
"...this same Jesus [son according to the flesh], whom YOU [the ones not born of water and of the Spirit] have crucified, God HAS MADE both Lord and Christ." There is no more difference between the Spirit and the body.
One more scripture: "...for in him [Jesus the Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily." = In the body of Jesus Christ abides ALL the attributes and character of God.

I'll stop there and let the fun begin.
Brother Villa

light

04-16-2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Hnovilla
His Name is Jesus!

Jesus was either a real human, or he was not. If he was, then he had a human spirit the same as all men. If he was not, then he lived and operated under different conditions and circustances as the rest of us.

The above statement is correct. God chose to manifest himself as a man. A man just like you and I. If he was not made like us then His Temtations WERE A JOKE. If the man was not made fallible, then in reality there was no TEMPTATION. Paul said he was in all points tempted like us.

[Heb 4:15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

NO! Jesus did NOT need to receive the Holy Spirit the same as we, he was BORN with the Holy Spirit abiding in him.

You were correct in the first quote then in the next you conterdict what you said in the first.
You see Br. you have Jesus as his on father. You have "at his birth" Jesus being God. If he was born with the Holy Ghost he would never been able to die. He would have been a supreme being.
The Spirit had to come upon him as prophsied Notice upon not within, or born with but upon. When it was time for the man to die the Spirit left Jesus.
You have Jesus as the "all in all" (father,Son, Holy Ghost) which is conterdicted by the word of God.Paul said:

[1 Cor 15:23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[1 Cor 15:24] Then cometh the end , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[1 Cor 15:25] For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[1 Cor 15:26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

[1 Cor 15:27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

[1 Cor 15:28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Only part of the above prophecy has been fulfilled, The rest is yet to come.
God will be all in all in the body of Jesus.

Hnovilla

04-24-2003, 04:06 PM

His Name is Jesus!

Beloved, I believe we need to look at who MAN is, and who Jesus "...of the seed of David accrding to the flesh..." is, and proceed from there.
The scriptures teach that the Word (not Jesus, the man) became flesh. Jesus (the man) did NOT exist eternally; but the Word (who robed itself in humanity) did. We are also taught that because man sinned in the flesh, the Word had to come in the flesh to destroy the works of the flesh.
Man was created (in His image-spirit-), formed in a body of flesh, and then God blew into his nostrils and man became a living soul.
So the real question becomes, was Jesus a REAL man? If yes; then he had a spirit like any other man, seeing he had to destroy the works of the flesh.
Jesus Christ DID NOT have to receive the Holy Spirit the same as we, because he was ALREADY the Spirit-Word: "The words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life."!
"...a body have you prepared me..." refers to the Word who was to be robed in the flesh.
God could not be contained in a temple made by hands ("...heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool..."), nor in a human body. The FULNESS of the Godhead dwelled in the BODY of Jesus, the man. I say Jesus, the man, because as a man he did not KNOW all things. The Church needs to know how to differentiate between Jesus, the man; and Jesus, the Lord. "God (the fulness) was IN Christ..."
When Jesus was arrested, the Lord spoke, and the officers of the Council fell back. When Jesus the man spoke, they were able to arrest him.
"...the Father which is IN me, HE DOES the works..." Jesus the man could do no works; but the Word IN HIM did them.
That's all I will say.

Brother Villa

Hnovilla

05-15-2003, 01:20 PM

His Name is Jesus!

Brother J, I like what you say.

Beloved, there IS only ONE Spirit as it pertains to salvation. But what is in question, I believe, is the HUMANITY of Jesus. We must also look to the essence of God. God IS NOT a spirit; He IS Spirit. He encompasses all of eternity, and it has pleased Him to abide in man.
Jesus (the man/flesh) was conceived by the very Spirit of the Lord and had that same Spirit abiding in him since the conception. The difference between Jesus and us is this: Jesus had the FULNESS of the Spirit, while all we can have is a PORTION of His Spirit. It matters little how annointed a preacher is, he still has only a portion.
If anyone can explain this scripture, that person will probably be closer to the question that started this thread.

"...this same Jesus, whom you crucified, God HAS MADE both Lord and Christ..." There it is.

Brother Villa

jbenjesus

05-15-2003, 01:34 PM

All the pages of this thread addressed this in some manner.

I know it's a lot, but try reading it again.

I know Adoniyah stressed that point as well.

Adoniyah

07-20-2003, 11:31 PM

I think all the questions asked in the current thread, "Answering Orthodox Trinitarianism" are answered here.

proude2luvJesus

03-15-2004, 11:13 AM

I do believe God. I got bapized last year and recieved holy ghost. God is wonderful person I love him so much as he is the person. :D

Grace

03-15-2004, 07:27 PM

God, and Jesus are one, God is a spirit, and Jesus was born in the flesh he had everything as we men have except he was not born in sin. He was composed of flesh, and blood, which is the body, he had a spirit, and a soul.

Can this Apostolic show you something. The Genesis account was not only God making souls eternal, but allowing man's body to activate. Genesis 2:7 he blew a breath of life and man became a living soul, through his nostrils, and man became a living soul, that's man's awareness level after the flesh brain is buried " the soul ",emerges.It is a invisible division of ones mind.

The zechariah 12:1 account is describing when he formed the lungs, and ect. " blowing the breath in had not taken place as of yet. The life of the flesh is in the blood because of oxygen, it is carried by the blood, that's the life of the temporary spirit of man or animal.

Man has a temporary life spirit,man's personality is grafted in his temporary spirit, when it's gone the body slumps over, and the personality is gone with it, for his temporary spirit is a display case for his personality.
The eternal spirit of God is on man's soul unsaved man, and saved man it is what makes man's souls immortal it has nothing to do with salvation.

Yes, when a man dies his spirit returns to God, it's the eternal spirit that's on the soul. The temporary spirit is atmospheric air.

If a man is lost his soul will be fitted for destruction Rom 9:22 God will remove his eternal spirit off that man's soul. " My spirit will not always strive with man ". Depart fom me I never knew you , if his spirit was on them he would know them he would reconize his self on their soul. God Bless

Grace

03-16-2004, 01:11 PM

The human spirit is made up of atmospheric air, that's where unclean spirits invade a man " his spirit " if he's not filled with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:2 b the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobeince.

It matters not where the air is, in space, in a person, the prince of the air can invade the spirit of men who don't have that space filled with the Holy Spirit.

The soul is protected with God's eternal Spirit he can't get in there. All souls belong to the Lord Ezekiel 18:4. He can only possess the body, and the temporary spirit of man.

There's room for a host of unclean spirits for they are invisible, energies with built in traits of whatever spirit they are. they enter unsaved men's spirits.

The soul is within man Job 14:22 . It is an invisible awareness level of the mind of a man. God made it invisible for several reasons. One reason is they belong to him, and in the case of John the Baptise, by cutting off ones head you can't possess a man's soul for there is nowhere to grap it. It would be liken unto a man trying to grab a beam of light from a flash light, its not there, but it is.

the 2nd reason is it's invisible because God's word is true, Psalm 5:4 God will not dwell with evil. Think about this children of the most high God. God's eternal Spirit is on an ungodly man's soul. Yet it is not in the same compartment with the flesh, and blood of the man. The eternal Spirit of God dwells in a seprate place within the man, on the soul, it never touches the flesh.

There has always been a separation from the clean, and the unclean, flesh is in one realm, and spirit is in another realm the two don't meet up.

If God had blown that breath into man's mouth it would have made man's body immortal for the breath would have went down into the lungs of man, on into the body. He breathed into man's nostrils for the only way a breath can go in the nostrils is up, it pointed the way for man to know which way his soul is, only while he occupies the flesh body.

The soul is a mirror of your mind, yet it doesn't touch the flesh, the flesh brain will be dropped off in the grave, it got contaminated when the knowledge of good, and evil entered it, in the garden. Flesh, and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Ye must be born of the spirit. God bless you Children of the most high God. He is revealing his secrets in these last days. " strengthen the things which remain". Bless everyone of you in Jesus Name !

Grace

03-17-2004, 10:30 AM

Kill the thoughts, kill the flesh, it's time to kill in the spirit. If you don't kill those thoughs they will hold you captive, you will become their prisoners, they will get you killed spiritually.

You are going to keep that thorn because I'm going to take you so high in me that you must have the thorn in the flesh to bring you back down to the flesh body your in.

God said, " tell the church : The cow is drying up, I still have babies, I will always have babies, but the cow is drying up". The length of time one will be on milk will be shortened for the days will be shortened. The babies will grow up faster, as the animals on earth are doing now, which are given injections, I am giving spiritual injections of spiritual knowledge, they will be on milk only for a short while, it's for the newborns. I will not change my word.

Go tell the church the cow is drying up ! Babies will get off milk faster, they will grow up faster. Their going to eat meat, pureed it, smash it, blend it, spoon it up to them, those two year olds got to put down that bottle, " time for meat'.

The day is here they won't endure sound doctrine, their ears are itching now. A little bit of righteousness is not alright. Anything won't do ! Your whole life is a living sacrifice, not part of it.

God said, they said, " just fed me anything tell me something to make me feel good". That's spiritual junk food. He said they teach men, " don't steal, and don't kill , to satisfy them," and they don't tell them to live Holy, and be Holy AT ALL TIMES.

Have my people forgot what I said ! All those who live Godly will suffer persecution, if your not being persecuted your not living Godly.

Strengthen the things that remain, get the spots and wrinkles out. Fear me not men, fear who can destroy both soul, and body. Seek me while I may be found, while it is yet day. Old heads are going to roll, if they don't obey my voice, they should know my spirit by now. Stuborn,and self willed, and will not harken unto my voice, when they know I have told them this is the way I want it done. I will not suffer them to be loss, but I will move them over, ( out of the way ). All things are to be done desent, and in order.

I will not do a new thing in the earth unless I first tell " MY" prophets. The spirit of the Sanhedrin court is alive, and well, it will not prevail ! Guilty is on the tips of their tongues, before the evidence is weighted.

He said my people need to get back in the sanctifed line, some got out of line, and their now standing in the LINE of unrighteousness waiting to get another assignment. Linned up to do wrong. They got in the wrong line, get out, and get back in my line.

He said," tell them they can't work for God, and man in the spiritual arena only on earthly jobs is that permitted. He is you provider. How long will they halt between two oppions ? If God be God serve him. STOP the going back and forth from cold to hot, luke warm will get you spued out of my mouth. The middle wall of partition has long been broken down, and some are trying to build it back up instead of building my kingdom up.

Be ye separate saith the Lord ! Lean NOT to your own understanding.

Grace

03-26-2004, 12:47 PM

The word " spirit" means life, and whatever is named before or after the word spirit denotes what spirit we are discussing, therefore the spirit of jealousy, is merely live energy, invisible to the eye except when it manifests itself in ones behavior, after it enters one's spirit.

Human spirit is just that the life in a man, it is composed cheifly of air, when it leaves we see a slumped over body. Man's human spirit can be compared to a computer, which ever program gets installed will run.

Spirits can enter a mans earthly spirit, Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

When a man receives the Holy Spirit into his spirit, every unclean spirit must go.
Spirits influence men to act out what ever spirit is in them, some are outside the man waiting for a door to open to get in. the bible names good ones, and unclean ones.

Here,s a Message God gave me, if any one is insterested in knowing why in Revelations 20:2 the devil is called, the dragon, that old serpent, follow these scriptures as God led me, Iv'e been apostolic 32 years, and was never taught this, God gave it.

Revelation 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil and satan, and bound him a thousand years.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhibiters of earth and of the sea ! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Luke 10:18 and he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lighting fall from heaven.
Satan got tossed out of heaven, and got into the playful dragon, possessed him, and later got into a snake in the garden.
Psalm 104:25 So is this great and wide sea, wherin are things creeping inmumerable, both small, and great beasts. Verse 26 There go the ships: there is that Leviathan, whom thou has made to play therein.

Verse 27 these wait upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. Hand fed before the pocession of Satan. Verse 28 that thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.

Verse 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou take away there breath, they die, and return to dust. Verse 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

The playful water creature was changed,after satan entered his spirit.
Job 41st chapter Is after the possession of Satan. Job 41:10 , Look at verse 15, his scales are is pride. The same Levithan, only now possessed.

Psalm 74:13 Thou dist dividethe sea by thy strength: thou breakest the heads of the dradon in the waters.
Isaiah 14:16 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish Leviathan the piercing serpent, even Leviathan that crooked serpent, and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Job 41:2 Canst thou put a hook into his nose or bore his jaw through with a thorn ? A piercing hole was made into mans mind through his soul for the knowledge of good, and evil to enter man's mind it did not just appear there.

That's why God had to restore man's soul with the Holy Ghost seal Eph. 1:13.
Psalm 23:3 He restoreth my soul. Remember God blew up man's nose the breath of life, and man became a living soul, it points the way for man to know which direction his soul is in "head area" not chest area. It touches every area of ones mind yet remains invisible.

1 Tim. 6:10 for the love of money is the root of all evil: which some coveted after, they erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. We all know there was no money in heaven, the words love of money represents power. Pierced themselves throught means through the soul, into the mind, it means they did it to themselves by allowing it to happen. That's why he's called that dragon, that old serpent. God Bless

tommyjoy

10-30-2004, 04:42 PM

Praise the Lord, Bro. J,

It sounds to me like the question is based on a false dilemma. It would be like asking, 'if we can measure time by a lunar calendar and a solar calendar, do we have then two separate "times" on earth?

We must remember that God is a Spirit, and He is incorporeal. Even the word "soul" implies a corporeality, but not necessarily so with the word spirit. Think of "the spirit in the air" or "the spirit of '76" or such like- they are concepts or feelings or even pervading attitudes that seem to affect us, sometimes somehow intangibly, yet nonetheless actually.

There are several passages I'm thinking of that help us understand the reality of God without His being corporeal. But first let me point out that one of the very first Trinitarians, Tertullian, was very adamant that God had to have "substance" (i.e. physical reality) in order for him to be a real thing or being. Thus at the very core of the Trinitarian invention is the presumption that the glory of God must first be made in the image of man if He is to be taken as real. So there is very great danger in "speculative theology." For that is what Trinitarianism is at its basest core- pure speculation about the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Here are a few passages that help us understand the reality of God outside of having "substance".
A) 1 John 4:8 & 16- God is love.

Love is a concept. Man did not create it, although some may have personally discovered it- it had to have first existed for man to find it. God is like that. God is love. The sum of His attributes is the epitome of the concept of Love. Compare the concept of love with the concepts of physical realities. Humans are a complex design of frames, wires, tubes, fluids, gases, etc. In contrast, the concept of love is purely simple. Love itself is omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal etc. just like God is. Wherever we go, the concept of love is there, there is no place in creation where the concept of love is not. So we could say God is Love with personality, that is, with a name- Jesus.

B) John 1:1 …the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Here again God is defined as (or like) a concept (as opposed to a structural or physical being or body). The "Word" (Logos) means thought or plan. So we have it thus… "…And the Thought/Plan was God." This Thought/Plan embodies the sum of God's wisdom, knowledge and understanding. The sum of God's wisdom, knowledge and understanding, again, is fully manifest in the man from Galilee- Jesus. In this way Jesus is "the Word" of God- He embodies everything that there is to know about God and His thoughts and plans.

We could add, "and the Thought/Plan was made flesh". How does the concept of "love" get "made flesh" or "manifest in the flesh"? By adopting and displaying only those attitudes that are characteristic of the concept of love. That is what Jesus is. He does always and only those things that He has seen and learned from Love (God the Father).

C) Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…
Coupled with:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In these two passages, we find the Greek word "hypostasis" translated as either "person" or "substance". And here again we have God being presented to us as a concept, rather than a physical structure or being. Thayer's Lexicon defines hypostasis as, "1. a setting or placing under; thing put under, substructure, foundation… 2. that which has foundation, is firm, hence, a. that which has actual existence; a substance, real being… b. the substantial quality, nature, of any person or thing… c. steadiness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution… confidence, firm trust, assurance".

We find hypostasis used in 3 other passages in the N.T., 2 Cor. 9:4 ("confident"); 2 Cor. 11:17 ("confidence"); Heb. 3:14 ("confidence").

So in four out of five N.T. usages, hypostasis signifies a non-physical concept- the substructure upholding our confidence or faith, which faith is the evidence of things not seen- which "not seen" is the hypostasis.

In the same way then, that Jesus is the "express image" of the "foundational reality" of God, so likewise is our "faith" the evidence of that reality which we are sure of- our salvation in Christ Jesus.

Hold that thought…

tommyjoy

10-30-2004, 04:50 PM

So what am I getting at? Well, to understand the "one spirit" of Jesus, we first have to divorce our concept of God from the philosophical concept of some physical substance (Trinitarians used the words "substancia" and "ousia" to speak of the one substance that could be distinguished in the three persons [persona- Latin/West, hypostasis- Greek/East] of God). Not being philosophers, but being a sect of Judaism, we Oneness must conceive of Him more like we would of a Thought or Concept than a physical body or creation or structure.

So when we think of "Spirit", i.e. that God is a Spirit, or that there is a spirit in man, we should not think of this as some fine, gaseous-like substance of which, if there is the presence of one, then, if we introduce the presence of another, we then have two. That is totally Trinitarian type thinking.

If we understand both realities that God is Love and that God is Thought/Plan, have we then confessed belief in a reality of God as two Spirits? No. Both Love and Thought/Plan are attributes that constitute the overall character of God.

Now, with the idea of "spirit" as sum of conceptual attributes, then we are ready to look at a few more passages of scripture, like this one-

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Let's couple that verse with these passages-

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God…

Do we see here seven gaseous-like "spirits" in Jesus? No. We simply have multiple concepts that are noted or listed as being attributes of "God".

In contrast to Jesus, the rest of us humans only have the "Spirit" of God poured out in measure to us. This corresponds with the parable of the Talents (Matt. 25). Unlike Jesus, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, we only have certain characteristics attributed to us. Therefore, we have a spirit, from God, but it is distinct to each of us individually, and therefore differs from the Spirit of God- which is complete and entire, and only contains elements of good. When God forms the spirit of man that is in us (Zechariah 12:1), God, according to the parable of the Talents, and the discourse on gifts in Cor., fashions each of us with an individual portion and combination of the attributes, which are also attributes of God.

So then, when the scripture says-

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

It means not that there is some new, foreign, gaseous-like substance that flows within us, purging or transforming that gaseous substance that used to be in us, but that, through dying out to our old corruptible attitudinal nature, we put on the holy attributes of the Spirit of God. Our spirit, the sum of our attributes, becomes one in submission to those attributes that are of God in all holiness and goodness, and above all, of Love.

I hope I have addressed your question, and not just my impression of your question!

God bless,
-Tommy the Teacher

jbenjesus

11-01-2004, 06:42 PM

Hey brother,

Before you go answering my initial question, which was really a question regarding as statement made by Dr. David K. Bernard, you should read the whole thread's progression.

For me, it helped my a great deal discussing this here.

addy2234

11-03-2004, 03:39 AM

I have seen this thread after i posted which says Divine flesh so that LilOrphanAnnie lead to this which I thank you Lil.I was happy & these last 4,5 days I have been reading the whole discussion. In this discussion what raised me some points i what is creation

Creation is something to bring from nothing
when God created man in his own image God brought human being from nothing
The divine act by which the world was brought into existence from nothing
So that when we see the thread which was 1st started " It is apparent that Jesus had a human will, mind, spirit, soul, and body, but it is equally apparent that He had the fulness of the Godhead resident in that body. From our finite view, His human spirit and His divine Spirit were inseparable." THe above thread leads us to the Divine Spirit has lead to happen or created the human spirit soul & to exist. (CREATION)

If we say Jesus was created we are becoming Jehovah witnesess or

if we say Divine Spirit make to exist human spirit this leads us to binitarian not oneness.
If we say His human spirit & His Divine spirit were inseparable we are saying two spirits exists in the Deity
But if we say The Spirit of the man Jesus Christ was the Spirit of God then all questions that were raised have sufficient answer directing us to onenessnot to binatarian or others
Isa 59:16 KJV And he saw that there was no man,and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
Concluding The Spirit of God was manifest in the flesh.
The Word become flesh. not Two spirits

millie

12-28-2004, 08:59 PM

jbenjesus,
I have read the thread http://goodnewscafe.net/shoqthread.php+=57 and http:/ourfathersheart.org/j/ as you requested that I do . I have always considered myself trinitarian and then considered the oneness issue to be true. Now I am not sure. I can't see that there is a real difference in the two . I my have used the names : Father , Son and Holy Ghost , but I never saw them as seperate and individual and I don't think most trinitarians do . Of course I may be wrong . I have been in much prayer over this issue, and here is what I have come to believe to this point . I am called Millie, but , I am also called mother , sister and daughter . None of these offend me or cause me not to accept the person referring to me . I am indeed all of those people , yet I am still Millie . I will function differenty as each name dictates different reactions and abilities . My question is ? His name is Jesus , If I say Father , Jesus or Holy Ghost is that wrong ? What will he not accept? and why? Is he not the same no matter what he is called and does not different titles dictate different responses for different matters? Truely I am not trying to be arguemenitive , I am trying very hard to understand. If I ask a trinatarian they act as if I am crucifying the Lord all over again and I get no answers. Am I trinitarian or am I oneness? right now I would have to say neither . I am in Love with Jesus and that is what I am now until I figure this all out . I guess I just don't get the difference in the two faiths . I wonder at this point if it matters to God what we call him . A rose of Sharon by any other name would smell as sweet. If I am way off base let me know , but I need to know by the word.

tommyjoy

12-28-2004, 11:05 PM

Hi Millie,

Have you ever noticed that Jews don’t say the name “Jehovah” nor will they spell it out, but they will use something like “L-rd” or “G-d”? Well, the reason that the Jews quit saying or writing the name of God is part of what caused them to not recognize Jesus as their God and Savior. Their reasoning in this was part of the Mishna (oral law) that Jesus condemned as making the commandments of God of none effect through man’s traditions. They took a commandment to not destroy God’s name-

Deuteronomy 12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
4 Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.

And made a tradition that says not to write or say the name of God lest you destroy it, and thus they completely forgot how to pronounce the name of their God. In creating a tradition to keep them from transgressing the letter of the commandment, they completely transgressed the Spirit of the commandment and they destroyed the name of their God!

That is why I have no problem saying or writing the name of God, which is Jesus Christ!

But the fact is, it was the same basic concept the Pharisees embraced which enabled the Trinity doctrine to be formed in the first place- the Platonic/Philosophic idea that God is ineffable (unnamable/unknowable) and impassable (not moved by the plight of man/passionless). It was this very idea that caused the philosopher-christians to view Jesus as a “distinct person” for the very reason that He was undeniably nameable and passable. (After all, He died on the cross!) When we cut through that tradition, that false philosophical lie, and realize that God Himself is passionate, and does very much want us to know and speak His name, it is then we have captured the real essential, foundational distinction between Oneness and Trinitarianism!

The difference, very simply, is in the intimacy of relationship.

To the Trinitarian, God the Father Himself must have really done nothing, but the Son did everything- from creation to the cross. They may say they are co-equal in lip service, but in their hearts they don’t for a minute believe it, for one, because they believe God the Father to be incapable of passion, while the Son alone was passable. In this they expose the error in their very hearts!

The historical fact is, the first philosophers (Justin and Hippolytus) to criticize Oneness* was over this very issue. They displayed their ignorance by the very fact that they called us “Patripassians” (Father-sufferers).

But to we Oneness*, it wasn’t anyone else than God the Creator, Jehovah Himself who came to earth to seek and save those who were lost.

If God robing Himself in flesh and coming to earth to show man the way by paying with his life isn’t passion, what is?

The difference now is that we Oneness* are on a first name basis with our Husband/Redeemer.

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Trinitarians, on the other hand, claim no one can know God’s name!

But Jesus said-

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

God rejects the idea of His ineffability. So do Oneness*. Not so Trinitarians.

In this is revealed how Trinitarianism is the true neo-Phariseeism- their confession of belief in the ineffability of God!

But Jesus said that love is the very purpose for which He declares the name of God!

Jesus also said-

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Who displayed this greatest of love? The Trinitarian God the Father the impassable? Or Jesus Christ? Again, the Trinitarian hypocrites say with their mouth they believe they are coequal, but then they would have to have Jesus Christ more capable of love than their concept of God the Father, their impassable, yeah, their dead-beat-dad!

God the Father=No passion, no love, no name= Trinitarianism.

God=Passion, love, name= Jesus Christ.

Jesus said that it was the Father in Him that did the works. So it was not anything about Jesus Himself that made Him deity other than the Father in Him that did the works.

Remember also that Jesus said “destroy this temple” speaking of His body. Go back and read the story about the building of the temple in 1 Kings 8, and note especially verses 27-29. What was noteworthy about the temple was that God’s name would be there!

That’s what Jesus is to us Oneness*- the place where God’s name dwells, and that is also why we are called Christians, because Jesus dwells in us.

Who says we have an impassable, ineffable God? Why, Trinitarians, that’s who!

If you sincerely believe in your heart and react with your actions (ie Acts 2:38) that the name Jesus is the name of God, then you aren’t a Trinitarian. Because according to the Trinitarian doctrine, God is ineffable (unnamable), and therefore, since they say the name Jesus, He must not actually be to them God! With their lips they may honor him, and call Him coequal, but with their heart he is far from coequality with God, for to them the Son alone is namable and was passible (from the word passion)!

If you believe in John 3:16, then you have to be Oneness*. Because the Trinitarian God the Father is without passion. And without passion, there can be no love. And with an impassible (incapable of being moved by the plight of man) God the Father there can really be no such thing as a Trinitarian version of John 3:16.

It is a contradiction- the idea of impassibility or that God so loved. That is the real choice between Trinitarianism and Oneness*

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Why was Jesus a rock of offense and a stone of stumbling to the Jews and the pagan philosophers and now the Trinitarians?

Because they could not and do not believe in the passion toward, and the knowledge of God’s name by, man!

Do you?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

-Tommy

*Oneness = God is one/Christ is all, Mk 12:29/Col. 3:11

jbenjesus

12-29-2004, 07:01 PM

Millie your honesty speaks volumes. Please don't think that to consider oneself as a "oneness believer" that you can't or shouldn't use the terms of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Spirit). Oneness believers don't deny these three. We just deny or reject the idea that they are persons.

jbenjesus,
I have read the thread http://goodnewscafe.net/shoqthread.php+=57 and http:/ourfathersheart.org/j/ as you requested that I do . I have always considered myself trinitarian and then considered the oneness issue to be true. Now I am not sure. I can't see that there is a real difference in the two . I my have used the names : Father , Son and Holy Ghost , but I never saw them as seperate and individual and I don't think most trinitarians do . Of course I may be wrong . I have been in much prayer over this issue, and here is what I have come to believe to this point . I am called Millie, but , I am also called mother , sister and daughter. (But please realize, -as I'm sure you do, I'm writing this for the benefit of others reading- that mother, sister, and daughters are not your names. However, they can be used by particular individuals that identify with that particular role that you play in that person's life) None of these offend me or cause me not to accept the person referring to me . I am indeed all of those people , yet I am still Millie . (Exaclty. You got the right concept. You are Millie, regardless of what role you occupy when relating to different people. Your true identiy is constant throughout.) I will function differenty as each name dictates different reactions and abilities . My question is ? His name is Jesus , If I say Father , Jesus or Holy Ghost is that wrong ? (Nope. Not at all. You are probably calling upon him based upon the state you find yourself in. Sometimes I just need a Father to listen, so I call Him Father. My wife calls Him "daddy" sometimes. Sometimes I need the Lord of lords, Jesus the King to respond to me. Sometimes I need His sweet Holy Spirit of power and love, but even then I'll call on Jesus. He knows who you call for He knows your heart.) as What will he not accept? and why? Is he not the same no matter what he is called and does not different titles dictate different responses for different matters? Truely I am not trying to be arguemenitive , I am trying very hard to understand. If I ask a trinatarian they act as if I am crucifying the Lord all over again and I get no answers. Am I trinitarian or am I oneness? (Irrelevant. You know that Jesus is your Lord. He is your Father. You know His the Holy Spirit that dwells within.) right now I would have to say neither . I am in Love with Jesus (Perfect. That is the place you need to be!!!)and that is what I am now until I figure this all out . I guess I just don't get the difference in the two faiths . I wonder at this point if it matters to God what we call him . A rose of Sharon by any other name would smell as sweet. If I am way off base let me know , but I need to know by the word.If you call on the name of Jesus, you can never go wrong.

Be blessed and revel in the blessing of His name. You know His name.