If you use the NIV at all , please go here!

[Oldpreach]

Every minister needs to give this a good looking over. Im not saying throw the NIV in the trash , but you just have to know these facts. It wont paste here , its just too long , so here is the link. Maybe you all have already looked this over , we ran into it several years ago.

http://www.av1611.org/niv.html

[Hebrews116]

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ!

Bro. OldPreach, I appreciate your diligence in bringing this to our attention. However, in my own personal opinion, I find that those who stand up, like the author of the article, and tear down translations like the NIV, are usually against any translation that is not the KJV, and more often than not, carry with them a spirit of anger and hatred. They tell ANYONE who uses other translations other than the KJV, even as secondary study references, that they are going straight to a devil's hell.

I am confident that God has preserved His Word no matter what. We ALL know that the KJV has it's translation problems/errors as well. I am one who uses the KJV for my primary source of study and teaching from. I do use the NIV and the NASB as secondary study references though. They do offer insights that are helpful.

In all the examples given for translation errors in the NIV, I would like to put out there for anyone to go and look up, in the NIV and/or the NASB, Acts 10:44-48, just as one example. Where the KJV just says baptized in the name of the Lord, the NIV and NASB say in the name of the Lord Jesus. Just an FYI.

It takes discernment to properly divide the Word of Truth.

God Bless!

[Oldpreach]

Dear Heb,

I think your missing my point. I understand about the KJV only crowd and how they can go off the deep end. I know the benefits of some of the passages in the NIV and others. What is in the link i posted cant be argued against and goes manifold over in terms of error in comparison to say the KJV. The bias in the NIV and NASB and others goes very very far. Please take the time if you havent to really look over the link , it is WELL worth your time , i assure you. The blatant omissions in the NIV especially are just overwhelming. Just the fact that the NIV folks , because of their easy believism , fouind it in their hearts to leave remission out of the book of Acts, is proof enuff that false doctrine has tainted this now most popular of all modern versions in such a way as to sound a very loud alarm to all. Because they do not feel Baptism in any name or title remits sin , they plainly render "Aphesis" as forgiveness in each critical passage that deals with conversion. Like i said in the first post , im not saying throw it in the trash , but i do feel that it should be used by only the seasoned.

[Hebrews116]

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ!

Bro. OldPreach, I did look over the info at the link. I did find it to be very interesting. I'm not trying to argue anything against that. I was just trying to say that we, in our efforts as teachers and preachers, need to be fair and honest about things. There are Trinitarians that are vehemently against the NIV because they feel that the translators "left out" their Trinitarian references; that they were being too Oneness in their translations.

That being said, I personally would not recommend any translation other than the KJV for anyone's PRIMARY source of reading and studying. I do not see anything wrong with using other translations as SECONDARY study references, including the NIV. That's JMHO, brother.

God Bless!

[Oldpreach]

Dear Hebs. ,


Yes ! I agree completely.

[mfblume]

Just a thought (keeping in mind I am a KJV-proponent) APHESIS does mean FORGIVENESS in the Greek. Check it out.


af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

[Nathan]

MF Blume,

I'm missing your point... LOL

You know, in Bible school they told me that God forgives you of your sin at repentance and remits it at water baptism.

I asked them to explain this, as "aphesis" means both to "forgive" and to "remit," and "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms even in modern English dictionaries.

No one has been able to answer yet.

Thus, if God remits sin/forgives you at baptism, what happens at repentance? Nothing?

[Oldpreach]

Much of this is in the context present. Aphesis , in the KJV anyway , is redered both remission and forgiveness in DIFFERENT places. Back then they understood clearer it seems that the scripture teaches baptism as a "washing away" of the sins of the new convert. Not so in todays doctrinally tainted versions.This seems to be because now a days the modern translators of the the NIV , NASB , ect ect all are the easy believism types and feel that Baptism incurs no remission , or for that matter , much of anything. Of course, if you really really study baptism , remission , forgiveness and the realted topics , you quicky see that woven into the totality of scripture , is the true picture -- what the Apostle Pual was told-- "...arise ,and be baptized, and wash away thy sins , calling upon the name of the Lord."

This is just a short , unexhaustive answer.(did i spell that right?)

No one has been able to answer yet? Really? Wow.

[mfblume]

I believe remission is synonymous with forgiveness. The way I see it in context with repentance and baptism, is that BOTH repentance AND baptism are for remission of sins. Not just repentance alone.

Howso?

Would Abraham have been righteous had he not agreed to circumcision? We know he was made righteous BEFORE circumcision. But we also know that God knew that Abraham's heart WOULD cause him to obey anbd undergo circumcision. WE would not have know that, but God obviously did!

God knows our hearts!

And it is FAITH THAT WORKS that saves us. So it is with repentance and baptism.

Baptism is an ANSWER of a good conscience towards God. What is the QUESTION, then? It is "YOU ARE DEAD -- WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?"

So it is the answer saying "BURY ME!"

Baptism is a burial.

True repentance is a death and claim of Christ's death as our own. We die to our old lives, or else we have not repented!

BUT true repentance goes hand in hand with baptism! Someone who refuses baptism simply was never dead yet!

And that is why Acts 2:38 says BOTH cause remission of sins... not just one or the other.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED for the remission of sins. Not just one!

:)

I disagree that the KJV terms used to distinguis remission from forgiveness are of any concern. Its BOTH.

Think about it. If baptism alone washes away sins, without repentance, then that is baptismal regeneration, and we might as well baptize infants!

No. REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM remits or forgives sins. That is why we read "He that beleiveth AND is baptized shall be saved."

Just my opinion! :)

[Sandy]

As you know Pastor Blume, I do not totally agree with you regarding what takes place at each phase of Acts 2:38, having discussed this issue with you before. But others don't, so I will try to share what I believe takes place at each of the three foundational principles of Christ and why scripturally as well as logically. Although I agree that repentance and baptism and also the baptism in the Holy Ghost are all synonymous with one another to begin with God fully.

I believe when one truly repents, they are forgiven of all past sins committed at that time. I believe this because the scriptures such as 1st John 1:9 as well as many other scriptures regarding repentance seems to be saying this is when one is forgiven by the Lord. So why should repentance in the beginning be any different. But that one is not yet delivered from the bondages of sins yet, and will not be until they are baptized in His name. The reasons for my believing this I will get to in a moment.

I also tend to believe that once one repents, this is when that one does indeed recieve Gods Spirit within them, or at least to come into their life anyway, God doing so because of no longer seeing that one as a sinner. But that one is not filled with the Spirit yet, God only entering within that ones spirit only. In other words, the veil remains yet within that one, separating spirit from soul until that one is baptized in His name. But when one is not baptized in His name soon after at least, you have the situation that Paul describes happening in that temple in 2nd Thess. 2:3-4 then. Yes, you also have these coming into the body too, which is what some believe only it appears. But how does this happen to begin with, without this first beginning in someone that has begun to be the temple of God to begin with, thus having begun to enter into the body to begin with? You cannot. Because you cannot say that just because someone enters into your fellowship, coming to it often is in the temple to begin with anywhere. Man has to be that temple of God first, meaning God is residing there too, before they even begin to be one amonst the corporate body. So IMHO it has to be something that is seated within man himself, and not someone seated within a fellowship only. But you are going to have to reason this out first to see it, also realizing that man is that temple of God first before he is a part of the corporate temple at least according to what is written in 1st Cor. 3:16 anyway. And if they have not begun to be the temple of God, God residing within, then they also cannot be a part of the corporate temple either, or even in it.

I also believe the scriptures in Rm. 6:3-7 is speaking of baptism only, simply because nothing else is written there. I see nothing to suggest that any of those scriptures pertain to repentance only, unless you believe verse 6 does because it talks about Jesus providing us something as a result of the cross. But everything was provided because of the cross to begin with, so that IMHO again, does not indicate these scriptures are talking about anything but baptism into or in the name of Jesus Christ.

I also do not see believing this means one is believing baptismal regeneration at all. It is simply believing that ones old nature does not die when one repents, even though that one is forgiven, that is unless you do believe nothing takes place when one repents at all. But I do believe something takes place then. Believing this also in no way eliminates the baptism in the Holy Ghost either. Even if you believe one receives the Spirit within at the time of repentance at all. Not anymore than anyone is believing it to be important that we continuously be filled thereafter. It simply means that the Spirit of God does not yet rule and reign in that ones life, that one being filled because of that one not yet yielding themselves totally to said Spirit. Because while we cannot have anymore of the Spirit, He can certainly have more of us. And in fact, this is true on a daily baisis too as well. And just because Gods Spirit appears does not mean we do not have Him within us either. We just cannot look at spiritual things in the way we might look at things in the natural. This is the reason many think because they have repented, and even been baptized that they now are filled with His Spirit without speaking in tongues, which by the way is the manifestation of God taking over completely within that one totally, even that ones most unruly member at that precise moment. Maybe this is the reason it is so important to pray with our own understanding, but also to pray in the Spirit too, as we give ourselves over to him daily. But also, if you have not yet spoken in tongues, it also means IMHO that God does not yet have your tongue, even though He may have all the rest at that particular time you thought you received.

And that does not include being taught by another what to mumble either that was being discussed elsewhere on this forum. Because that is not God.

Which means that even though one has been baptized in His name, delivered from the bondage of sin the old nature had that one does not need to be filled or baptized in His Spirit, staying filled daily either, the Lord taking over that one completely for the crucifying or putting under the body of flesh as well. But this cannot take place until all three of these foundational principles are begun within that ones life to begin with.

So therefore, in realty,
1. repentance = justification
2. baptism in His name = sanctification
3. baptism in the name of the Holy ghost = glorification

These three, but only if that one continues on thereafter as God permits which is what Heb. 6:3 tells us.

This is what I believe regarding this and baisically why I believe what I do. Have I looked at what others believe. Yes, certainly. Knowing I could be wrong. But I am going to have to have the Lord reveal it to me scripturally first to believe it, because of what I beleive He has already shown me in the scriptures so far.

And yes, I do know that Col. 2:12 suggests what bro. Blume believes. But if you go back to what is being said in verse 11, which says nothing about repentance there either, then also know that we are also indeed buried with him in baptism, then this scripture does not prove that theory either. Because it is indeed at baptism the handwriting of ordinances begin to be nailed to the cross. Even before you receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost. Simply because your old nature has been indeed buried that resided within you before this, keeping you in bondage to sin just as is described in 2nd. Thessalonians chapter
2.

True, God isn't going to crucify anything within you until you have truly repented in your heart, desiring to go to that death and burial. Which brings me to another scripture that indicates we are baptised for this death and burial both, which is 1st Cor. 15:29, which says, "Else what shall they do which are BAPTIZED for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead. I believe this scripture is also speaking of water baptism too, which seems to be where this death occurs to begin with so that we can rise up by His Spirit, no longer that old person, but the beginning of being a new creation in Christ Jesus.
Which again takes me to the baptism in the Holy Ghost, which is the only way you are able to continue on being that new creation to begin with, thus being moved by Him from glory to glory as He takes over from within beginning from that day forth.

[light]

Originally posted by mfblume
[B]I believe remission is synonymous with forgiveness. The way I see it in context with repentance and baptism, is that BOTH repentance AND baptism are for remission of sins. Not just repentance alone.

True repentance is a death and claim of Christ's death as our own. We die to our old lives, or else we have not repented!

BUT true repentance goes hand in hand with baptism! Someone who refuses baptism simply was never dead yet!

And that is why Acts 2:38 says BOTH cause remission of sins... not just one or the other.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED for the remission of sins. Not just one!

No. REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM remits or forgives sins. That is why we read "He that beleiveth AND is baptized shall be saved."

Just my opinion! Br. Blume when I disagree with something you say, I am quick to say something. In all fairness I should be as quick to say so when I agree, and I do agree.

Not only is it opinion but it is according to Gods word. There is more to remmision of sins than baptism.
Repentance is not just saying I am sorry, But a change of heart and ways. If our heart is not changed how can there be remission of sins.

[Nathan]

Bro. Blume,

You make a good point concerning Abraham -- thought I might lean towards Sandy's view, in light of the fact that Abraham WAS justified "by faith" before the circumcision, showing that it is at the moment of faith that we are justified in the eyes of God.

Ephesians teaches us that we are sealed by the Spirit of promise after we believe. I do not believe that this is the same work of the Spirit that Paul referred to when he asked the disciples of John 19 if they had received the Holy Ghost since they "believed." If so, he was contradicting himself.

You did say something that caught my attention ... citing 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism is an ANSWER of a good conscience towards God."

I'm sure you realize that the Greek word rendered "answer" literally means "an appeal," and all theologians (even UPCI) are in agreement on this.

The KJV (there's that archaic language again :)) was right in rendering "answer" -- for readers 400 years ago. The word has undergone etymological changes, and it doesn't mean that your conscience is "answering" God, it means that it is "appealing" to God.

Furthermore, we should note that Peter says that it is the "answer"/appeal of a good (maybe it's "clean?" I'm going by memory here..) conscience toward God.

This means that the conscience is ALREADY clean/good. I believe that this is accomplished at the moment of belief, in which justification by faith occurs.

God bless!

[Nathan]

I do wish to pose the question to both Bro. Blume (who believes that forgiveness does not occur until both repentance and baptism are accomplished) and Sandy (who believes [if I'm correct] that baptism confers some type of spiritual power that sets us free from sin):

How do you explain the accounts of people repenting (which was expressed outwardly through confession and asking of forgiveness; we all know that "repentance" is not a prayer, it's a change of mind and heart that is manifested outwardly) and feeling a heavy burden lifted from them, then immediately being delivered from, for instance, alcoholic or pornographic additions or other sins and experiencing a feeling of new life and a deep hunger for the things of God?

Ie., if they aren't forgiven totally right then, what is it they feel lifting off of them? And if they don't have any spiritual power and seperation from sin at that point, where did the sudden deliverance come from?

This is a topic that has greatly interested me for quite a while, I'm enjoying the discussion.

Sandy, I apologize, but I had to skim through your post. I plan to go back and read it later, but I may have m isunderstood you. I'll probably catch on later if I did. :)

[John Atkinson]

Nathan,
I am curious. Do you beleive it it absolutely essential to be baptized in the name. i.e. the name Jesus is spoken, not some vague authority of and recieve the Holy Ghost in order to be saved?

If baptism is for the remission of sins, where no baptism is, no sins are remitted.

I want to note that I do ban people from this forum, and quickly, for promoting or espousing or even mentioning any salvation outside of strict and literal observance to Acts 2:38.

This forum is for Apostolics, and Apostolics are quite literal and absolute when it comes to Acts 2:38. If anyone posting here doesn't fit there, it would be best if you found a more liberal forum to post in. because we who run this (BroRutledge, Myself) don't want you here if you are going to post veiwpoints contrary to fundamental Apostolic Doctrine of Salvation.

I am not trying to be mean or manifest a lack of love, we do love everyone, even the people we have to ban to protect the integrity of this board. By letting people who do not believe the essentiality of Jesus name spoken baptism to post their veiwpoint here, we defeat the original vision of the Cafe as being an Apostolics Only discussion board. The common ground for this community is Acts 2:38 taken literally. It is, and will remain so.

There is no need to PM me for clarification.

[John Atkinson]

At repentance, you forsake your sins, in baptism, God removes them, when you receive the Holy Ghost, you rise to walk with him in newness of life.

To say otherwise says that a person is saved at repentance. When the truth of the matter is that the whole package is required.

Repentance (Death): Forsaking sin, sinful living, turning from sin and to God

Baptism (Burial): washing of remission, sin washed away. The ONLY EXAMPLES in the Bible show the name of Jesus used, literally.

Holy Ghost (Resurrection): Regeneration, old heart taken away, new heart put in. Old Man put away, New Creature put on, power to overcome the works of the flesh, and manifest the fruit of the spirit given. Sealed to redemption. Power to be a witness (not power to pass tracts, the power is in the fruit), Law written in the heart.

These aren't three seperate and distinct things, they are all part of one baptism. If all of it isn't in place, none of it is valid. That is why I don't believe in deathbed repentance saving someone without baptism.

This is seriously fundamental. Forgive my extreme bluntness, but this should be knidergarten stuff to Apostolics, this isn't even first grade yet. This is basically what we put on all our tracts, I hope we believe it and are persuaded of it.

[John Atkinson]

BTW, to be on topic, I think if God isn't big enough to preserve his word, then he isn't big enough to be God.

Millions of Holy Ghost filled Apostolic KJV dedicated folks can't be far from wrong. I still like the Amplified and the LITV as well for cross checking. The biggest downer about e-sword is no Amplified. The Interlinear I have is very close to the LITV.

I am not adept enough at textual criticism to go to deep with this. For me personally if the translation falls to the right of the kjv on the arrow I stay away from it.

[nytxn1971]

John, I really like e-sword, but like you said there's no Amplified version for it. Even if there was, you'd probably have to pay the Lockman foundation to unlock the module like their NASB module (since they own the rights to both).

I study form the KJV, but if something is unclear, I use the 'literal' translations e-sowrd has (LITV, YLT, ALT) to try and open it up a little. Either way, I'll never get rid of the KJV.

*By the way... there's a new version of e-sowrd out there.
V. 7.0.0

[Hnovilla]

His Name is Jesus!

Church, ALL of the sins of the world were forgiven at the cross, when Jesus cried out, "...Father FORGIVE them, they know not what they do."
Forgiveness entails mercy; and mercy withholds punishment. Mercy does not GIVE life by the withholding of judgment. Life (grace) can only be given AFTER our sins are remitted.
When Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden, this was done so they might not "eat of the Tree of Life, and live forever..." Had they eaten of the Tree of Life in their fallen state, they would have lived forever IN SIN! Similarly, one cannot receive grace/life while in sin, except sin be 'covered', and the just punishment withheld.
That is what happened when Cornelius and his house received the Holy Spirit. The scriptures lead us to believe that they had already repented, and mercy covered and withheld God's just punishment. "Blessed is the man whom God WILL NOT impute sin, and whose sins are covered." They received the Holy Spirit (grace/life), and were then baptized in the Name of the Lord "...for the remission of sin...", according to Acts 2:38
There is more....but I do not like long posts.

Brother Villa

[Romaw]

Well Praise the Lord.. It is sooo good to see this forum will not bow to the ones who think anyway old way will get them to the shores of heaven.. As Bro. Atkinson said, there isn't but one NAME given where by we must be saved. Sure wont be titles to save anyone. And IMHO, if the name JESUS is not spoken them it wasn't according to ACTS 2:38.
keep up the good work.. and blessings to all, roma (roe)

[rapturereadyru]

cornilious was an itailian general and he got the holyghost becasue he beleived in god even though most didnt, and infact they could not have salvation as the jews could, but when an angle spoke to cornillious and told him to send someone to joppa to look up a man name simon, surname peter, tell him to come back to you,

while that was going on, or actually the next day when the 2 house servants and a soldier that beleived also left for joppa, peter was on his roof to pray, he then became hungry and as he waited for his food to be made he went into a trance and this certain vessel came down from heaven and he saw all the 4-footed animals and fowel of the air and creeping things and the point is, is that all the things a jew could not eat he saw and the lord said peter rise up and eat, peter said no so lord, nothing that is unclean has ever entered my lips and the lord said why do you call what i have cleaned uncleaned,

it goes into talking about circumsised man, saying how they are now to be circumsised in thier hearts and the point is that all men can have salvation, not only could they now eat any animal they wanted, any man could have salvation if they beleived jesus was lord and savoir, and cornillious becasue he was an devout man (feared god and gave alms) thats why he was the first to recieve the holyghost and he was a beleiver and he went on to get baptised

the guy on the cross, he didnt have to be baptized becasue jesus wasnt dead yet, not until jesus died did the prophecey come to pass and that one had to be bapized with water in his name and filled with the holyghost as john 3:5 says,

[TulsaDavid]

Just a thought (keeping in mind I am a KJV-proponent) APHESIS does mean FORGIVENESS in the Greek. Check it out.

af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.If you don't mind some clarification, aphesis can mean either forgivness or remission, depending on the context, whether you're contextualizing it in the Greek or English. Please see my article on aphesis (http://www.faithchildforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85890#post85890).

[The Riddler]

Is it a good time to bring up the topic of the chronological order of repentance?

[Sandy]

I just read this tonight, which is very interesting. Thanks TD for that info. Although I don't know a lick of Greek, but I do know the Lord, and He is the one that told me it did not mean forgiveness but rather remission, in that context. Because although the Greek term Aphesin, I think it was, can mean several different words in the English, there is a slight difference in the meanings of the English words. For that reason, you have to rightly divide which word it means. In this case, by finding out what is received from God when you are baptized. And in Acts 2:38, I would never use forgiveness or pardon. Because that is not what we receive when baptized in His name. We receive deliverance from the bondages of sin the old nature holds mankind in. And that old nature or old man that sits within man is what is circumcised by faith, after God has forgiven that one. Yes, repentance and baptism for the right purpose should go together. The problem is, because of the erroneous traditions and doctrines that the so called false prophets have brought forth, many do not have a clue as to what the purpose of baptism is for. Because they are taught that it is simply a traditional thing that one should do because Jesus did, this saying that they have repented. That is a big fat lie.

What you have just pointed out is proof of what I said. The answer is in the context of what the author is talking about. In that case baptism in water, and the reason for it.

The reason that someone feels clean after repenting is because when we repent, that is when God forgives that one, accepting them to come and be baptized for the deliverance of sin now, and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost so that they no longer have to serve sin once delivered when tempted even. That is why Jesus led the way first for us to be baptised by going to Johns baptism. But then what happened? He went into the wilderness, fasting for the 40 days, but then was tempted by the devil. And once He overcame that temptation, he then began His ministry. Because He was leading the way for us to follow. He was perfect already in every sense. But we are not. He did not have an old nature to be circumcised. But we do.

The devil will try to destroy any part of what Acts 2:38 says. But he hates for anyone to fulfil all there, and continue on, because that is when he no longer has a foothold into that ones life. He doesn't even mind us repenting. Just don't allow them to see the truth about being delivered and receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost both. Because then he has gotten his walking papers, so to speak. As long as that one continues on walking after the Spirit and not the flesh. Because the Spirit doesn't sin. But leave one of the three out anywhere, and you have a cripple period. It breaks my heart to see people so spiritually crippled up because of being deceived. Yet often are so brain washed and blinded by their leaders, they don't even know there is truly healing for their spiritual condition.

luv in Christ,
Sandy