The Hair Question

[ddc101]

I am posting this hair discussion primarily for ladies.We are to remain ladylike at all times in what we post.Do not post things that you would not say to your sister face to face.Arguing never solves anything and is a fleshly thing.It actually interupts the flow of the Spirit.
Lets share scriptures of types and meanings and articles of history etc that will edify one another on this subject.I say it can be done in a civilized manner.We many not all agree but we can sure love each other regardless of the stance taken on the issue.
I believe the ladies who are posting are of a very berean nature and it should be lots of fun.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

Here is my first post:

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

the bible says it is a glory to her.

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

1391 doxa (dox'-ah);

from the base of 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):

KJV-- dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.

[ddc101]

Ladies many of you emailed me about starting this thread.Where are you? sis.c

[Goodshepherd]

Sis. Cooper, most African American sisters do not have long hair.... how would you explain 1 Corint 11:15 in this case?

[Goodshepherd]

I am very curious to hear what others have to say or answer they have to give to my question.

[tufluv]

I have another question...but as for the AfroAmerican women, I can't see that it is their fault if it does not grow., and this is not meant to imply that their hair never grows either, for I've seen great hair on all our sisters! IF a womans hair can grow, it should be let grow. The thing is to not 'cut' it, period.
It will then be 'uncut'!! That is my take.
AS for the other question:
IF a woman's hair is given to her for a covering...isn't that to cover......what? Her entire body? Don't clothes do that well enough? I just don't get it very well, what some try to interpret that as. Or is it [long hair] meant to just cover her head, for if it is just her head, it would not have to be very long for that! lol
Another person once said or commented to me that "if it is meant to be HER covering, I thought her submission to the authority of her husband IS her covering...he is HER HEAD! Should not his HEAD be the one covered"?
But that also cannot be, for the husband's head is GOD! GOD does not need to be covered..
this seems to go 'round in circles! :eek:
BTW: I was NOT one of those 'ladies' asking for this discussion, but I'm going along anyway, to keep this going...they may be asleep already, or not logged in - whatever, I'm sure JV4H would be here if she was on! lol

[ddc101]

Hi Sisters,
As for african american sisters hair not growing long.I guess the issue is how long is long.Or could it possibly be one of the cut,shorn or shaven points.I am very blessed that my hair is actually long as a veil.You all should see my daugher Stephanies hair.It is wonderful.She is a real "Hair person."As she is always in the hair do books or buying some new hair product.I am impressed with her dilligence.My other daugter Ashleigh has auburn red hair that is thick and beautiful.We are just blessed with nice hair.I do however believe that God made you just perfact whatever nation you hail from.I have black friends who do their hair so nice.I do not see any problem with an updo for them or what ever.I think you have to work with what you have.If you feel long or uncut hair is biblical then you will do it regardless of opinion or fashion.I for one only take my hair down for my husband or prayer.I feel long hair is so intimate.Especially because you don't really see much of it anymore.When I have on
occasion worn it down the oggles were much more attention than I desired.lv sis.c

[tufluv]

I also can't wait to hear some replies to my questions! Surely by tomorrow, we'll have more postings! ;)

[Goodshepherd]

Interesting.........................

[Goodshepherd]

topic.... I too cannot wait to hear what others have to say

[foreverblessed]

well I for one rarely get down to this section, first I have seen this thread. I am not one who emailed about this thread either, but I'll put in my two cents.

I think from all the threads on the General section, everyone knows what I believe.
Basically that I do agree that it is good for a women to have long hair, because it is a glory to her.

I don't know if I know the answer to Tuf's question about our "head" being a covering, so what purpose does the hair as a covering?

I don't believe long equals uncut. A couple reasons. If cut means short, then a man would just need to cut a small amount off, and still have short hair, although it might go down his back. We all know that isn't true.
Second reason, is when researching the word shorn, I believe the scripture is referring to exactly what comes to mind, sheep.
I believe it means to cut completely off, short, close to the head. I also use the strong's to look up the word Shorn/shear. I don't use the english dictionary for studying the bible, why would I choose to do it this time?

Personally we live in a society that has tried to take away the feminity of a women. I strongly believe in keeping a clear distinction between sexes, and long hair on a women is a good way of doing it.

As for African American hair, I just think wearing it in a reasonable gender distinctive hairstyle would be appropriate.

JMO

[tufluv]

Forever:
don't know if I know the answer to Tuf's question about our "head" being a covering, so what purpose does the hair as a covering?
Thats not exactly how I meant the question..and it is possible that this question may be difficult to understand, I realize that.
But, my question was NOT related to the physical 'head' being a covering! :laugh: I certainly did not intend to imply that, and maybe you just misunderstood. :shrug: No problemo!

A woman's spiritual HEAD is her husband, correct? Fine.
The husbands HEAD is Jesus Christ., thats a given.

Back to the woman's hair -since it is "given" to her for a "covering" my question is to cover WHAT? just her head, or her whole body...OR is it more a 'spiritual' issue, as in a 'sign' of submission? to man or GOD?

I am not arguing that it should be long, or uncut. I've not cut mine since being saved. 5 yrs. Nor did I even bring up the 'shorn' question as that has gotten tiring. I don't even want to get into that.

AGAIN, I am curious as to more elaboration on: ...to cover WHAT? just her 'physical' (or spiritual?) head, or her whole body...
maybe its too simplistic to make sense as to what I'm aiming at.

Perhaps someone will figure it out! But as I've got to be working on and off today, mostly ON, I won't be able to check out replies till later on.

[Goodshepherd]

What about those that believe in wearing hats to cover their head.............

[tufluv]

Hats? Men or women? Hmmm...
A hat does not adequately cover a head, anyway! lol

[ddc101]

Boy I love hats but I have big hair so I cannot wear them.I always have gotten a kick out of watching womens hats fly off as they shouted.As for men in hats the jewish men wear big black hats.They do so to follow the Talmud.It says not to let them take ten steps without a hat I believe.Anyway I like hats on men.I really like those straw type hats with the neat bands.But then
I grew up on a horse farm and wore a cowgirl hat alot.So hummm
maybe I am partial.lv sis.c

[Marie]

Sister Lempky(sp) taught a few years ago on "The Covering" I wish there was a way to post it so you all could listen to it! She did a wonderful job of teaching about what the covering is all about. She also did a lesson on "The Bride" the next day. Wow, I wish you all could listen to both of those tapes! I will listen to them again this afternoon and see if maybe I can do a short version of them. I doubt that I could ever teach it like she did without typing out the whole thing, but I will give it at try!:)

[Goodshepherd]

woman, tufluv.............. some churches believe that woman should wear a hat when praying, ministering etc.

[tufluv]

Well, I guess people just did not really want to discuss this after all., or perhaps have no answers..just as I thought!

Go for it Marie...give us the essence anyway! Maybe a brief outline.

[ddc101]

I have seen some of the sisters in a hat at church.I feel that if they are doing it for Jesus then hooray and so be it.AMen!It is all about the spirit you are doing it in.lv sis.c

[Marie]

Yes, I agree Sis Cooper.

[foreverblessed]

Tuflov,
I know what you meant, I just don't know the answer.

I have heard it was meant in that culture that the long hair or veil was a protection and sign that a women was married and under submission. I have only heard this, so I don't have any resource for reference.

Ruth Reider teaches that it is a rear guard because all our our spiritual armour covers the front only. But then again, I have heard messages preached that we only have a amour for the front because we are never in retreat. I think I believe the latter.

Just don't know, maybe I will take a look at it more closely and find out. Kinda busy this week, it will have to wait until next week.

[pentecostal mom]

Well, I believe that long = uncut because of the simple reason that not everyone's hair grows the same rate or thickness and my hair grows really fast and is thick but I have only been not cutting my hair for 4 1/2 years--its already down to the tops of my thighs and I am a tall lady! Where as my daughter's hair doesn't grow as fast it doesn't even reach her waist. It is unfair to put a designated length on long. As far as the "covering" thing I believe that it is both physical and spiritual. And it even translates into a tangible attitude and behavior.

[Sis Ruth]

Interesting thought!

I grew up where unmarried females wore white veils and the married/widowed females wore black veils. (That was only nice cause then the guys knew who was available..grin) I never did understand why that had to be.

Now that I am an adult I go to a church where no veil is worn because I'm told the hair is the covering. But, why should a woman cover her head when going to church only, if covering the head with a hat/veil is that important?

But if I go to the church several miles away, the women wear hats/veils...which brings a thought as to why we even cover with a hat/veil or not cover? Trim the hair to take care of the split ends or not trim the split ends.... Is there really a right answer to our questions or do we simply do it cause we submit to the authority over us, our Pastor? When does our personal conviction come into play if we are told to cover our heads in one church but not cover in another church? I have found it is very much like, wearing a wedding band or not wearing a wedding band, wearing a covenant ring or not wearing a covenant ring.

A mock trial regarding this issue would prove interesting...You can have a judge, a prosecuting attorney, a defendant and a jury. But then, when all said and done, the matter would have to go to the supreme court I'm sure, and in our case, to the main Judge. (grin)


It's great to read what has been posted. I truly appreciate all that has been said. I shall visit this place more often.

[incandescent]

If a woman should not pray with her head "uncovered":

"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven." 1 Cor. 11:5

If you take this to mean one should be worn, and we are also supposed to "pray without ceasing," how would one justify wearing a veil to church only and that not be a double standard?

[LadyRev]

I have mentioned this before but for the sake of this new thread, I mention it again.

I was raised Catholic. As a little girl, I remember that the women and girls were required to wear a hat to church. Our hair could be short but we must wear a hat while in church. Also, the nuns would cut their hair short or even shave their heads completely and replace the hair with a veil. Some nuns still practice this today. Although the Catholic church did change its stance on the hat requirement many years ago already.

Off topic but interesting note....
The Catholic church also required girls and women to wear a dress or skirt to church. Pants were considered inappropriate.

:)

[Marie]

Ladyrev, you would be shocked at the Catholic churches here! They wear shorts and tank tops to church in some places.:(

[tufluv]

Marie:
I believe it! Its here too, they let (I've heard) people come as they are!
The one catholic church located AT the beach here, no doubt does allow shorts, perhaps even bikini's!! :laugh: They are at the Beach, after all!
Its probably its own culture! lol

[foreverblessed]

Doctrine that Long equals uncut is just a means of control in length and making sure everyone measures up to the standard.

Just think of what they are saying, if cut hair equals short hair, then a man could wear his hair any length he wanted to as long as he cut it. He could just cut an inch off, and wear it to mid back. With this type of theology, then hair becomes short once it is cut. Long hair means just uncut, then I disagree.

God made us different a women or man should have a distinction between the sexes.
It is a shame for a man to have long hair, but long hair is a glory to a women.
How do you define long, well how do you define long on a man? How do you look at a man in our society today, and think, he needs to cut his hair, he is being feminine. It really isn't all that hard.
For me, I believe my hair, which grows pretty strong, mid back is long, but usually it is kept at waist length to fit in around here. I consider my hair to be very long.

I think the best thing would be to teach the principle of the word of God. That Long hair is a glory, and is a sign that you are in submission to the order in which God created man/women. I think you would probably get more cooperation out of women this way. Teaching the beauty of a women and the differences that God gave us naturally.

Preaching protection through uncut hair, and that cutting hair is removing glory of God from your life and your family, is nothing but fear tactics and is wrong.

[ddc101]

Yet sister Forever some see it as dedication.Remember the stories about dedications that you don't hear about so often anymore such as someone wearing white only or giving up coffee for the sake of God protecting the life of a newborn on its deathbed etc.I once heard an awesome message at the Pentecostals of Alexandria by Pastor Merle Ewing of Lake Charles Louisiana.He entitled it Early Altars.And he spoke of the things dedicated to God and how God honors sacrifices made.
I wonder how he feels about a sister who sacrifices and does not cut her hair for Jesus.She does this special because she feels it is bible.I believe that this kind of dedication is one that brings a person to a place of flesh deniel and a reminder every day of who they are.I know everytime I do my hair I am reminded of the word of God and that God made me female.So with this in mind I want to say that those who sacrifice and dedicate are more likely to get a prayer answer.Also it does not open the door to vanity like going to hair salons does.I also want to share that I did not grow up apostolic and even as a catholic when how I read that a womans hair is her glory it made me want to grow my hair.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

I also said all this to share this: If you are not cutting your hair and doing it out of faith then you have the right spirit about it.
If you are doing it as though its law then more than likely you will cut it and tell everyone that you never felt it was bible anyway.That is the difference.Doing it out of a pure heart in faith or doing it because you feel you will go to hell if you don't.Then that would make it a part of salvation and its not.All that we do should be done in faith to please the Lord.Anyone can follow rules but following rules are not enough.God expects you to act in faith and obey the word in faith.We are not under law but under grace.But then we do not possess the spirit of lawlessness.

LAWLESSNESS

LAWLESSNESS (Gk. anomia; <Matt. 7:23; 13:41>; and elsewhere, NASB). See Iniquity.
(from New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
(

[tufluv]

There you go, its finally been explained in the way I've felt all along, that whatever one does FOR GOD, out of pure dedication from the heart, I feel HE will honor it. That is the 'only' reason I do what I do, and believe what I believe.
I recently said on another thread, that what I do and/or say, is a tribute and testimony to HIS spirit within me.
Good post Sis C.

[Marie]

There are some very good posts here.

I do believe it is a shame for a woman to cut her hair, but not in the way some think of the word "shame", but more of a disappointment. Because God has given us our hair for our glory, like a precious gift, I really feel like He is disappointed if we do cut it. Long, uncut hair is beautiful! Also, as has been said before, whatever we do, if we do it out of love and consecration to God (not a man made rule) it pleases Him. More than anything, I want to please God!

I was not raised in the Church, but even as a child, I would cry if I had to get my hair cut. I just felt for some reason that it was wrong. I didn't have any idea why, I just felt it wasn't right. Up until I started school, all 5 of us girls had long, uncut hair. Then Mom decided to have it cut into a pixi cut. Which is basically a boys cut with a different name. LOL I remember burying my face in my pillow and weeping over the loss. I was only 5 years old, but I knew it just wasn't right.

For some reason, even though we only went to church occasionally at the neighborhood churches, I was always sensitive to the things of God. Always different from the "crowd". Never wanting to do the things other kids did. LOL I was teased and tormented unmercifully by my sisters and peers because I refused to do things that were against the rules or would hurt someone. I was far from an angel, just sensitive to the feelings of others I guess. The strange thing was, even though we always went to trinity churches, I always knew there was only one God, and that Jesus was that God.:confused: I never had any idea that anyone thought there was more than one God until after being in church for a while. LOL

:o There I go getting :nt: again. :yeah: LOLOL
BTW I am still working on that "covering" and "Bride"...uh...I guess it's not a paper LOL. Anyway, you know what I am talking about. It is going to take longer than I thought to edit it in order to post it here.:)
:D I am also still working on the "wheat and tares" and "forgiveness" studies as well. Not much time for studying with 4-12 kids running through the house!!:laugh: (I only babysit 4 of them now, but the others are still here all the time. LOL)

[Marie]

BTW If you haven't notice by the long post, hehe:D, my hands are doing much better. Praise the Lord! Thank you to all who have been praying!

[foreverblessed]

This post is quite lengthy, forgive me. :)

Ddc,

I can no longer believe that I need to do anything or sacrifice anything to obtain grace, mercy or favor before my God. We are not saved by works, and neither can we obtain favor through works.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To feel that I can have any special power with God through keeping my hair uncut, I am taking away from the sacrifice that he made on Calvary.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

He is there for me, covering me with his grace and mercy because I am blood bought child of his. Anything I need, I find in him, but only through his sacrifice.



I refrained from cutting my hair for about three years. 1999-2002. I prayed every day asking God's protection on my family. I didn't like my hair, but felt I was making a sacrifice with my hair, and God would honor it.

Growing up, I never actually cut my hair until I had a bad perm, and I was an adult. As a teen, I would cut some wispy bangs, but my length was never touched, but it was only shoulder length. I will agree, that I just followed a UPCI rule.

Two of my sisters kept their hair trimmed. We were all used in ministries, but one sister refused to cut her hair, she had heard something preached by Lee Stoneking.

My brother/now pastor, admitted to me that he couldn't stand really long hair, and didn't have much of a problem that his sisters cut their hair. When he married a women who's father was ultra conservative, he changed his mind. Then he gets on the Ruth Reider band wagon.

When I moved to MI, I had it coming from all sides, people trying to make me understand that I wasn't supposed to trim my hair. I faced a lot of judgmental attitudes. Long hair, I could understand, no problem. Uncut hair, I didn't. I did want to fit in though. You would have to understand my personality. I would do about anything, if required, if it meant I was more acceptable in the UPCI ranks. Might not like it, but would do it. That is just me.

I had also met a friend that I admired and respected in MI. My hair being trimmed really bothered her. I agreed to study it. I asked my brother about it for guidance, he gave me a Ruth's first book. I read it. Wow, you mean by keeping my hair uncut, I could have special power in prayer, and be a rear guard in protection for my family? You notice how sometimes we are so willing to want to help things along by works, and not trust God. I swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. There wasn't much I wouldn't do to protect my family. They mean everything to me.

Ddc, you know some of my past history with my husband, I honestly asked God to keep him from the pull that the World had on him with drugs. I told God that I would sacrifice my hair, my own personal feelings or fleshly desires concerning my hair. I would not cut it. I asked God to honor it.

Just before Christmas of 2001, I found evidence of drug usage with my husband again. I really never confided in anyone, it took months before I even went to talk to my Bro/pastor about it. My hair was very long and was still uncut.

I cried, why didn't God honor my sacrifice? I hated my hair past my backside. I couldn't wear it down, it was too long. At least one foot of it was thin and straggly. I had to wear my hair up all the time, and it made me look older. I just didn't understand. When I asked my brother why??? Why could this happen when I had kept my end of the bargain so to speak?

He said God couldn't go against someone else's will and that is why my husband did what he did. Then he said I don't believe that theory concerning protecting through hair. I flat out asked him, well haven't you read her books? Come to find out, he hadn't, he promoted them, but hadn't read them. I still don't know if he has read them or not. He did admit to me another time later on, that I wasn't the only one who didn't agree with Ruth Reider, many other preachers didn't either.

I decided if I wasn't able to keep my family protected through prayer with my hair, then I don't have the desire to keep it uncut. Keep it long as my glory, yes, but not unkempt from not trimming.

Then I faced another obstacle. I wanted to trim my hair to a more manageable length, but now I was under FEAR.. You see, Ruth teaches in her book, of God removing the Glory from your life when you cut or trim your hair. I was then fearful of cutting my hair. I would cry... I was torn. I no longer believed what she taught, but now was held by fear. I was fearful, and we all know that fear is not of God. My husband was making comments about my hair never being worn down, he like it down. I told him I couldn't wear it down with scraggly uneven ends. He told me to trim them up a bit. I was fearful, but I did trim about two inches of very, very thin hair at the very ends. It wasn't even enough to notice, just cleaned it up some.

Three weeks later, my world,( so I thought at the time), really began to crumble around me. I had the house fire, and then a few weeks later, my husband left and basically deserted his family. What else bad could happen to me now? I found myself looking for the next blow. The enemy tormented me that I was the fault of everything that had happened. The torment and heaviness that weighed on my shoulders, as the devil tried to lay this blame on me. Even though I was aware of his drug usage some eight months earlier. After all the details began to be revealed to me after he left, did I realize, I am not the one responsible for what happened. He had been actively participating in everything long, long before I decided to trim a little from my hair.

The house fire turned out to be one of the biggest blessings. The night of the fire, finances were not so Good, my husband wasn't working good, pot really keeps him from being motivated. Our bills were all behind. Six hours after the fire, I was cut a check for $2,000 and told that that should keep me through the weekend and they would take care of everything Monday morning. I took that money and paid our bills up. To me that was just the first blessing from that fire. No one was hurt, I had everything replaced for new, no burn damage to my things. What was replaced was just from smoke and damage from firefighters. God had his hand of protection on my family that night. Surely Mercy and Grace did follow me, no one was hurt. My old house had so many code violations, that were all brought up to code and paid for by my insurance policy. I got a complete new interior remodeling upstairs, and that way the only part of the house we hadn't started on in our remodeling. I don't look at the fire being destruction being brought upon me.

Bro. Jim Yohe helped me understand during this time that God is my Father, and even if trimming my hair was going against him, the punishment just didn't fit the crime. Would my natural Father who loved me, ever bring upon me hurt and pain for something so trivial? Why then would my Heavenly Father, who loves me that much more, allow that to happen to me. Bad things just happen to good people.

I have done a lot of studying about the hair, I have prayed and even fasted. I had been tormented so, that I fasted two days for the purpose only of hair. I was studying one night, and began to cry when the following scripture popped out to me. I felt such a peace as tears continued to flow down my cheeks.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

I am one that has suffered much from condemnation placed on me by other people. I serve God with all honesty of heart, and I don't condemn other's. Why do they feel the need to condemn me or my life?

As a women, I embrace the femininity that God gave me. I love long hair, I just like to trim it and keep it looking nice.
Trim:
v. trimmed, trim·ming, trims
To make neat or tidy by clipping, smoothing, or pruning:

After researching it, I just don't see the scripture as saying long equals uncut. If God gave me beautiful hair as my glory, I want to keep it nice.

God has dealt with me concerning being in subjection to my pastor, and his teachings. God is working on me, and I am doing better, but submitting to his beliefs is the only reason, because I do not believe it for myself.

[tufluv]

I myself have a lengthy post! [1 per day, please]!! :D
Wow, when one is in so much agony over something so simple as not cutting hair, it may be best TO cut it., although, GOD honors obedience more than sacrifice. Sacrifice in part, means giving up something that is dear to you.... If that sacrifice is more than one can handle...GOD knows it, and if its not from the heart, HE especially knows it. But if HE says we are to honor and obey the authorities set over us (pastors or ?) then we have to...of course, one has free choice to do as one wants, no matter what., and yet every decision comes with its individual set of circumstances and consequences.

Some people are trying to make something about what i've gleaned about RR's book - which I've never read. Dont' even know who she is, etc. BUT evidently, she's saying something about long hair being power. I'm thinking of that verse that says ", she should wear power upon her head..because of the angels"..
Why would that be included as Scripture, then be argued by those who claim to believe in all the Bible?
There must be some reason the angels have to see that a woman has her head covered, although to me, it does not necessarily mean long hair. But I do believe in wearing hair long as in uncut, although there's times I've thought about trimming the ends - the HG would not let me do it! Even though I've had at least one sister tell me it was okay. I did not agree.
The angels act on God's behalf, from what I've read...they can minister to us, help us in ways we may not even know, but they evidently must have a 'sign' or 'marker' to identify us as being of GOD. Hmmm...very interesting!

I'm sure some here will argue much of what I've said, and I'm not even done! But that is all I will say for now. They are JMHO's!
Except for one more thing: I've personally noticed that those sisters here [my town] who do go ahead and trim their hair, and/or are rebellious in other ways as well, have had disastrous events happen in their world; disobedience(s) has to have its consequences..a natural outflow of it. I'm thinking there is a connection between the two, I can't see GOD being happy about disobedience, but as I am not GOD I'm can't judge that to be true, its just my observations I speak of. For myself, even before being saved as an Apostolic, my own rebellious ways caused ME much grief over disastrous events in my world. Sometimes our own children can suffer as a result of our disobediences to GOD., speaking again, from my experience(s).

Marie: Praise God, for you were selected to be of GOD before you were even born! Hallelujah! Knowing that for myself, has helped to explain much of my life. I am happy that GOD always has HIS way in the end! I do like and agree with your interpretation of 'shame' as more like 'disappointment'! :tup:
As a mere child, my mom made much ado about my curly hair...and did any/every-thing she could to straighten it. I never ever had it long due to that! It was just something that was not be be done with curly hair - (let it grow)!
Maybe that 'traumatized' me to an extent I never fully realized or understood! :laugh: Anyway, that is all history. And she still hates my hair being long. Maybe 'cause hers would not grow when she wanted it too. (long story-I've posted a bit on that back in the archives).
BTW: the archives is a good place to read people's opinions on these matters.
AND all I can say is: the barbers, beauty salons have got it GOOD, for all those who are disobedient in cutting hair, coloring, etc., help to support these 'specialists'. :eek:

[foreverblessed]

Tuf,
In all that rambling you did above, are you trying to say that I am rebellious? Are you judging me? Do I need to post scripture for your judgmental attitude? Get the beam out of your own eye before trying to pick the speck out of mine.
That post was directed to Ddc, which I have been posting with on this board for a long while. So long that she remembers when I was still with uncut hair, believing in Ruth Reider's message. I felt the need to explain why I feel differently now.

Oh and BTW, Sis. Reider's husband has had an affair, but I am unable to give details. Her life is in turmoil right now, just as bad if not more so than mine was last summer. How did her long uncut hair save her family from the destruction?
She makes it clear in one of her books how she feels. She gave a story of how a women was rebellious and kept her hair trimmed. Her husband had an affair, and her marriage destroyed. Ruth blamed that disastrous situation on that women's trimmed hair.

Wonder what Ruth did to deserve the punishment she is going through? Hmmm.... let me see... or maybe that just isn't the way that God works.

The scripture saying that we have power on our heads, because of the Angles. It isn't referring to OUR heads, but our husbands as the head. So that nixes power in our hair!

I agree that obedience is greater than sacrifice, but you know what?? I don't believe that God is asking for uncut hair, BUT LONG HAIR!!! Long hair is submitting to God's ordained order. By keeping your hair long and clearly defining that you are a women, is honoring those differences between the sexes

[Marie]

Forever, I don't believe the problems with your husband had anything to do with anything YOU did or didn't do. That would have to do with his own disobedience and lack of commitment.

God DID protect you and your family! Nobody was hurt and good came from the fire. Having protection does not mean "bad" things will not happen to you, just that you and yours will be protected in the midst of them. Living for God does not keep us from having troubles. Troubes are just a part of life.

Calvary DID pay the price for all, but that doesn't mean we can't do things to please God. I'm not saying we do things to obtain favor or to do something to "bribe" God into doing something. God answers prayer and blesses His children. Even with my natural father, there are things I do just to make him happy or because I know he will be pleased. Any sacrifice we make is for our own good. Sometimes God will ask something of us and we will not always understand why. God knows what is good for us and how much we are able to give.
I don't condemn anyone for cutting their hair. That is between you and God. And I think if it is going to cause too much distress, it is better cut it, otherwise it will come between you and God. God put this in me when I was a child, and I am not sure I understand it even now. And I do get frustrated with my hair and feel like cutting it at times!:realmad: I have broken a few brushes in the last 20 some years! LOL But everytime I feel that way, I remember why I don't cut it and ask God to help me and the frustration seems to disappear. Though not always immediately:( Sometimes, I have to get ahold of my feelings and bring them under control. I also pray for my hair, that it would grow long and healthy. It used to be so thin and straggly that you could see my scalp! I couldn't do anything with it. It was definately NOT a glory! Especially when I was so sick. But through prayer, it has grown thicker and healthier:) and I even get compliments on it.

There are different things that we all struggle with.
It is not always easy to keep our commitments to God!:(

[foreverblessed]

Marie,
I appreciate the spirit of your post, I will be back to comment later.

[Marie]

:)

[LadyRev]

Wow...

I think some need to be careful or they may find a milstone tied around their neck.

My heart hurts after reading some of this...:(

[searching]

Forever, there are some of us who understand about your situation and things you are going through by what you talk about on the GNC. It's clear that you were hurt by what you believed to be true, and it's the grace of God that you didn't blame Him personally. God knows your situation, and He is helping you and will continue to do so. People who are judgemental may have a rude awakening one day, and they wouldn't want the same treatment from others that they have dished out to you.

I love you, my friend. You know that.

Me...

[Marie]

Forever, :( I hope you don't think I was being judgemental? That was not my intention!:( I do understand your situation and struggles. I just wanted to let you know that it is not your fault that your husband is in the situation he is in. Or that you had a house fire. It has nothing to do with your decision to cut your hair or not. He has to answer to God for himself.

As for your feeling condemned, condemnation does not come for God! God convicts, He does not condemn. If someone feels condemned, it comes from Satan or others, not from God.

If anything I said has offended anyone, I am sorry.:cry:
I don't want to hurt anyone.:(
Forever, you are my Sister, I love you just the way you are.:)

I am editing my first post because I have not read any of those books and have not studied what the protection means. So until I understand that, I will have to change my wording a bit.:)

[Marie]

Forever, I missed the post to Tufluv until just now. I agree, God does not work that way! Good and bad happen to all. If everything bad that happens to us is because we are rebelling, what about Daniel and the hebrew boys? Sometimes God allows Satan to come against us so that we might see His goodness in all things. Or because He knows we will continue to give Him glory even in bad situations. Sometimes it is as with Job. God knew that Job would honor Him through his troubles and give Him glory in the end. Job was human just like us, he questioned what was happening and even cursed the day he was born. I don't believe Job was the only faithful servent of God. God does not expect us to be perfect, only faithful! I am not sure if any of that makes sense, sometimes I have a hard time describing what I mean.:)

I believe your hair (and any other part of you) is a personal thing between you and God. Who are we to tell anyone (except our kids:) ) that they are rebellious? When we feel bad about something we have or haven't done, we need to ask ourselves why we feel that way. Is it because God is convicting us or because we think someone else will be disappointed or angry with us? Or are we trying to prove a point?

We have a couple of young girls here who continue to chop their hair off above their shoulders. When I say chop, that is just what it is, it doesn't even look nice. In fact it looks really bad. The reason they do this has nothing to do with God and everything to do with control. Every time they get angry with their parents, they get the scissors out. THAT is done in rebellion. They know that it hurts their parents. The older one told me once that she knows that God doesn't like it but she doesn't care.:( It is their way of proving (they think) that they are old enough to make their own choices.(their words, not mine)

I don't believe you have that type of attitude.:) I will pray for you Sister. Not that God would convict you, but that He would help you to find peace with this situation.:)

[searching]

Marie, those are wonderful words of wisdom.

Me...

[foreverblessed]

Searching, I love you too, I know you wouldn't ever judge me. Thanks for being my friend.

[foreverblessed]

Marie,
Thank you for your kind words. I didn't think you were judgmental, in fact I know what you stand for, and your post was so kind I cried. You are a wonderful Christian and have a heart full of Love. I admire you, you have been a friend to me on the GNC.

I know that it wasn't my hair that caused all of the trouble, but I was troubled by spirits trying to torment me.

My brother laid hands on my during a prayer line a couple months ago, and rebuked a spirit of intimidation. He has many times prayed for deliverance of my mind. I have come too far to ever back out of this way,or backslid. I have been through and stood through too much. The enemy knows he can't get to me any other way other than he torments me with "what if's" and intimidation, and condemnation.
I know the difference in condemnation, and conviction. I have some strong convictions in my life. Any true conviction, I can't be swayed from. I have them in my heart.

I did once have an attitude with my hair, when I was first married. My husband loved long hair, and when it got to my waist, he absolutely loved it. He loved to run his fingers through it. I cut my hair in rebellion to him once, I cut it just below my shoulders. I knew it would make him mad. It was something that I could look at him and say "I control this" not you. He was a very controlling man, when I first married him, I wasn't prepared for it. Life changed a lot in me, and it has humbled me. I am a different person than when I first got married.

Thanks again marie for your understanding and your kind heart. I would like to think I am a lot like you. I don't like to hurt others either. I don't like to see it when others are unkind here on the GNC. I am really drawn to people with beautiful spirits.

Love you, Lisa

[tufluv]

Forever: Actually in rereading my post, I see that I forgot to mention that the rebellious ones I was talking about are in my own town! So I just edited that..and see what happens? People get up in arms! Wow...
I only have of late been saying 'uncut' hair because some women's hair does not grow..much., so it may not even get to be 'long' as what one might consider long. I know of some personally whose hair just will not grow but a couple of inches, so it still looks short. Why must you automatically think the worst? I already mentioned in my post that I don't really know this RR person, only in being mentioned here. I doubt I'll ever read that book.
Why can't you read EVERY word of my post(s)? I also said I could not really judge what happens to others as a result of disobedience, only my opinions based on observations HERE in my own area, were stated. Too many would rather right away 'jump' on me, and that also is not right..but lets not look at that, right? I am entitled to my opinions, I even stated that many some were going to have a problem with what I posted, as it is always been that way...so?
The only 'true' friend is JESUS.
Now you say : "The scripture saying that we have power on our heads, because of the Angles. It isn't referring to OUR heads, but our husbands as the head. So that nixes power in our 'hair" .
I never said there was power in our HAIR...I said 'on our heads'...and back when I first asked questions starting at this thread, you said you had no answers either..but NOW you do?
I was only posting 'cause not many were...but now I can quit since as usual, someone has to get 'hot' under the collar.
BTW: In looking over my prev. post, your name nor no one else's was mentioned...it was 'in general'...

[ddc101]

Sister Lisa,
God does honor concecrations and committments.They are not your salvation but a result of relationship.Ask yourself why would you cut off your hair to despise your husband? What motivated you to do this.If you love someone you want to please them.It was a relationship issue.The basic thing about your hair is that you fought with it because you were not convinced in your heart and were not doing it for the right reason.I don't know about people preaching that their hair protects their marriage etc.I am sorry to hear about the Reiders marriage.Its a shame.But it happen in some of the best families.That stuff you went through was not your fault.You could have shaved your head bald and wore sackcloth and ashes and the man would not have come home.He is out there like the prodical son who has squandered his inheritance.But the father wants him to come home and put a royal garment on him and a ring of authority back on his hand.He wants to kill the fatted lamb.I do not believe in divorce and you know that.But you had no choice.He did not want to be married.I know this hurt you very deeply.And I am sure you still have a burden for him.He is after all the father of your children.and I know you remember the good times when he was doing right.I am going to keep you in prayer.lv sis.c

[justavessel4him]

Sis Lisa,
I have not read all the posts here, and might comment on others later on, but I just wanted to say something tonight about your post concerning why you stopped cutting your hair, and then why you began cutting it again. It seems to me that you were wearing your hair uncut for the wrong reason. Please don't be offended, just think about what I am saying and pray about it. It seems that you were trying to make a deal with God. You wanted something out of God, so you wore your hair uncut because you thought it would protect your family. Instead of doing it out of a heart of love and submission, you did it for what you could get out of it, or so you thought. Then, when it seemed to you that God did not hold up to his side of the bargain, which he never agreed to in the first place, you cut off the hair that you had never liked in the first place. I do not for one minute believe that whether you cut your hair or not would cause something bad to happen. I also don't believe that the Lord loves you any less with cut hair. That doesn't mean that he is pleased that you cut your hair, though. You said that you like to keep it looking nice and seem to think that if it looks nice it brings more glory to you. That is not true. While we all want our hair to look nice, what brings the glory is our submission to the word of God in not cutting our hair. I do respect you for wanting to be in submission to your pastor. I believe that if you have a heart to submit to your pastor the Lord can show you the beauty of submitting to him by wearing your hair uncut. I really don't know why so many women fight against this so hard. When you submit from a heart full of love and a desire to be in complete submission to the will of God you realize that your "glory" is really his glory resting on you. Please don't think I am criticizing you, because I am not. I understand that you have been through a horrible time, and also that you really believed you were protecting your family because of what you had read. I just want you to see the right reasons. I think Sis Reider has some very good things to say, and I agree with much of it, but I don't think she is right about our hair being a rear guard, or offering some kind of protection. When we wear our hair long and uncut it a sign of submission to our husbands and to our God. It is a glory to us because we are honoring God and our husbands. Nothing more. It is like an offering in a way, because it is a sign of us giving of ourselves completely.

[foreverblessed]

No one has offended me. Thanks for your prayers Ddc.

I just don't read the scripture to teach uncut. Never have, any time I would read the scripture when someone would comment on my hair being trimmed. I would read, and I would think of sheep, shorn, shaved, close to the head. I never really looked it up until a year ago, in the strongs. It clearly is stating about cutting off close, drastically cut. Just like shaving. I don't ever use a regular dictionary for looking up a word in the bible. I really don't believe that anyone does, but for the exception of the hair issue with the word "shorn". Then everyone gets out their english dictionary, including Ruth Reider, who used the Strong's throughout her book until she researched the word Shorn!

I believe uncut doctrine is just a means of telling everyone this is how long, just let it grow, for uniformity. My hair is long right now. It is just like the Scripture teaches. I believe that wearing it long is being in submission. Because long hair is a burden, it isn't easy to take care of. So without an important reason to keep it uncut, like a rear guard protection kind of thing, I see no reason to keep it uncut.
I will always wear it long. I see the beauty of it being long.

Now if I remarried, and my husband asked me to keep it uncut for him, I would submit to it. I know of friends that their husbands required this. One is a preachers wife, kept her hair trimmed until after she married this preacher. She submits, but doesn't believe or interpret it uncut, any more than I do.
I could tell you of many women I know that trim the hair usually trying to hide the fact from anyone. People can really be judgmental about it. Most women I have talked to, and it has been a lot, just like to take care of the hair.

[ddc101]

Boy I have to admit this is the most civil conversation on hair that I have ever been involved in.You ladies are the best.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

I thought this was a neat translation:

COVERING THE HEAD

COVERING THE HEAD IN PRAYER <1 Cor. 11:4-6>. "The Jewish men prayed with the head covered, nay, even with a veil before the face. Greek usage required that the head should be bare on sacred occasions; and this commended itself to Paul as so entirely in accordance with the divinely appointed position of man (v. 3) that for the man to cover his head seemed to him to cast dishonor on that position. His head ought to show to all (and its being uncovered is the sign of this) that no man, but, on the contrary, Christ, and through Him God Himself, is Head (Lord) of the man. . . . A woman, when praying, was to honor her head by having a sign upon it of the authority of her husband, which was done by having it covered; otherwise she dishonored her head by dressing, not like a married wife, from whose headdress one can see that her husband is her head, but like a loose woman, with whose shorn head the uncovered one is on a par" (Meyer, Com., ad loc.). The above command does not refer to private or family prayer.
(from New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
In bible times a married woman wore a veil of the type that showed she was married and under the authority of a husband.Whose authority was she under before? her father.
Remember this is the middle east and women were owned possessions like houses and cattle.lv sis.c

[foreverblessed]

That is really interesting Ddc,
I went to get a perm from an Apostlic lady in another city last week, and she basically talked to me about the what was in the commentary that you posted above.

So do you believe that the first part of this chapter is dealing with actual head coverings, such as a veil? I think that I have heard that mentioned by others before.

I believe that is something I would like to study out. of course I understand that it was cultral relevant in that time for veils.

[foreverblessed]

JV4H,
I did want to comment that I appreciate the kindness of your post to me. That meant a lot to me. I realize that I may never agree with your view point, but I do appreciate you for your kind response.
Some many never know how much I have been hurt over outward standards. I truly believe the love of God needs to be shown to people in understanding.

God bless

[pentecostal mom]

Yes I have to agree this thread has been rather civil all things considered. Now I have a comment that is slightly off topic but not really. My daughter has several friends from school that are not in this apostolic way. However when they come to our house they immediately get into my daughter's closet and put on skirts or dresses! This is not the exception its the rule I think it is really sad--it tells me that a 6-7yearolds instinct is to wear a dress. Even my daughter's friend who is a "tom boy" she loves to play with Gracie's clothes. One friend of her's wanted a long denim skirt for her birthday--her mom called me wanting to know where to get one. I wonder???? I think this relates to the scripture about nature teaching us things---its an inborn instinct. Until we are jaded by world, television,parents that don't want to be inconvienced. What do you think and have any other mothers noticed this?

[tufluv]

Well, pentecostal mom, I don't have any daughters myself.
But its been long known and seen,(maybe not as much today) , that little girls love to play either 'house' and/or 'dress up', like Mommy.!!
DRESS up. Pretend they are grown "ladies", and that is not a bad thing, although if they try today, many will find that they indeed DO have to go through someone else's closet to FIND any dresses! Many of today's worldly moms prefer slacks, or worse!
I know that my bestfriend's little granddaughter age 2, tries to mimick her mom already (that oftentimes dresses like a streetwalker :cry: ) and that is so terribly sad. Plays with her moms makeup, nail polish and carries her own in her little 'purse'!! Tragic.(what is IN said purse).

I also fear that even the 'playing house' they'd have to learn from someone else, maybe a 'housekeeper' that is so popular to get these days and having been one myself, (for others) I know and see that while these kids are at school, they arrive to a clean house done by someone else, including not themselves. Luxury, or necessity? Very few young girls that I've seen and heard of, know how to cook, do laundry, clean house, etc.

Satans ploys at tearing down traditional family roles has gradually diminised the practice of moms teaching daughters what they should know to be future wives and moms. My mother taught me all about how to be a housewife and as usual, I was a good student. I would like to teach some essentials to young girls of today, I've even dreamt of opening up a 'school' or classes, of sorts, for that. They 'used' to teach some of this stuff in high school, in HomeEc, but from what I've heard, they don't offer that anymore in many schools. I took 3 yrs of it, in addition to on-the-job-training! lol Oops, perhaps I'm a bit :nt: but oh well, I think this is/was somewhat related to YOUR question P.M

[Marie]

pentecostal mom

I have noticed this as well with my daughter's friends. Since she was very young, even the children I babysat wanted to wear her clothes. Even now (she has just finished Junior High School:cry:) the some other girls in school copy her way of dressing and doing her hair.:) They mocked at first, but it didn't take long before they were dressing similar.

I think it is because they feel or see something different about our children (or they should!) and they they want whatever it is, so they copy what they see. They probably don't even know themselves why they do it. And yes it is natural for little girls to want to dress "pretty". My niece and step-daughter would head for Esther's closet (or her bedroom floor, now!) as soon as they came in the door.

There have been times that I walked into Esther's room and her and her friends or cousin would be looking at her Bible.:) Or playing church. All the girls dressed in her dresses or skirts. Some of these children had been to Church or Sunday School once or twice and I guess they liked what they felt there.

Sad to say this it does't happen much anymore with these girls, now that they are growing up. But, the little girls in our complex copy her way of dress and talk about having "hair like that".

Even when children are young, they know there is something different. They feel the Holy Ghost and they like what they feel. So they imitate what they see.

[foreverblessed]

I have had girls do the same with my girl's clothes. I have had several neighbor girls tell me that their parents don't spend the money on dress clothes. That it just isn't in their budget, or they don't have the money for them. That is what the majority of society views as a "dress" that we are dressing up.

Girls by nature want to dress up and fix their hair pretty. I have to continually keep kids out of the dress side of the closet and the pretty scrunchies and hair jobbies as I call them, when they are visiting.

It is the way of life for my girls, and most other Apostolics. We have two sets of clothes, in the case with my girls, there are three. Dress for church, school clothes and then there are play clothes.
It has been my experience with the average kid around, they just have clothes, 5 or six pairs of jeans, some shorts, and shirts, they just mix and match. Only if they go to church somewhere, or are from a higher income, will they have dress clothes, but even then probably not to the extent as we do going to to church 4 times a week.

Also anything different than the way you've been raised, or forbidden from, has a certain allure. I have seen my girls want to try the attire of their friends on as well.

[ddc101]

Each child is different.What will lure some won't lure another.My oldest would even take off her zip up sleeper suit and say I want
gown.If I did not put a gown on her she would take it off during the night.She would take the short leggings I put under her dresses off and put them in the bookbag at school.She has always been this way.Now she even ministers to people with encouraging words.lv sis.c

[foreverblessed]

Ddc,
I have a daughter who doesn't like to wear pj's, sweats, and has always preferred a gown. She would also at a very young age, peel off the bottoms of PJ's, or sweat outfits. I prefer a gown also. She isn't much overweight, but she has inherited my leg shape, both of our legs rub together. Both of us carry excess weight in our inner thighs. Even thin, our inner thighs rub. I would much rather have a skirt on anyday over pants. I wear some pants and Capri's in my home, but usually can't stand clothing between my legs, drives me crazy. Their hot, sticky, and end up getting bunched up in the middle.

No doubt in my mind that this has somewhat effected my easy compliance with the no pants standard. The average person looking at me has no clue that I carry my weight in this area, you just can't tell by a skirt. This is how I came to my personal conviction that skirts are more modest than a pair of pants.

[Apostolic Kitty]

When I was a little girl I didn't really like dresses. I had only one or two and would sometimes fight to put those on. In middle school I mostly wore jeans. Stopped wearing jeans completely at 14....began to hate them... and switched to the stretch type pants that were popular in the 80's. Those and skirts of all lengths in my teen years. One of my favirites was a black and white striped mini (longer than most minis today) and another was black and to my ankles. I didn't like dresses till I started to work in this last decade and had to wear them for such.

[ddc101]

When I got in church I owned one dress.It was a sleeveless Chemise.Remember those? I wore it out.Then after I received the Holy Ghost I developed a sense of modesty and the Lord taught me how to shop.I burned all my black concert t-shirts.lv sis.c

[Apostolic Kitty]

Sister Cooper having black concert t-shirts??? Now...that's a funny thought... :)

Ain't it so good when God deals with us? :)

[ddc101]

Sister Kitty,
I bought went to some of those concerts in the Super Dome.But they just did not compare to Jesus.lv sis.c

[Just Jesus]

Since I grew up wearing pants, pants still seem more comfortable to me even though I've been in church for 11 years. I have friends that grew up in church and skirts are more comfortable to them. I wish skirts felt comfortable to me. I end up changing clothes alot every day. I wear shorts/sweats around the house and every time I go out I have to change.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Amen, Sister Cooper! Nothing -- and no one -- compares to Jesus!

[foreverblessed]

Just Jesus,
You will find that actually a lot of pentecostal women change quite often when they leave the house. Doesn't matter if they were raised wearing dresses or not. As I sit here in my capri's and t-shirt... trying to convince myself that I need to go put on a skirt, and go mow my and my sisters lawns. I can sit here and tell of several women in our church who do the same exact thing. You are not alone.

[ddc101]

Lisa,
If you feel to put on the skirt do it.What if God gives you a pastor husband? lv sis.c

[tufluv]

Skirts sure are a lot cooler, to me, than pants! I knew a woman I used to work for, she would always wear skirts saying they were cooler than pants, and she wasn't even a church-goer! Amazing!
I suspect even some women married to pastors wear pants at times...oh well! If it ain't done for to please GOD, after he's done so-o much for us..best not to do it at all., I say, since HE knows a person's heart, better than anyone. We can't fool HIM!

[Marie]

:eek: :eek: Brother Dave, did you get lost again?:D
Thought I took a wrong turn and had to go back and check the name on the door. LOL

[foreverblessed]

I guess I should have been clearer in my post above.

I wear capri's around my house. In the winter, sweats, or knit pants. I knew I had to mow today, so I was sitting here trying to convince myself to get up, leave the computer alone, change and put on a skirt and go outside to mow.

The only time I wear capri's outside my home, is when I ride bikes at night. The only other place I wear pants or capri's is at the gym.

I guess I was trying to say that I know many Apostolic women who wear pants and more comfortable clothing in their homes. When we leave to go somewhere, we put on a skirt. My own pastors wife wears them in her home, and I consider her to be very conservative. I don't know if she would open her door to just anyone that way, but I am family. I would around family and friends, but if I was expecting company, I would be dressed just as I do when I leave my home.

I will be honest, I wish I had the liberty to just go out and mow my lawn in what I had on today, which was a baggy t-shirt, and loose pair of capri's. To do something like that, would start a line of gossip, because too many people drive past my house. If I lived out a ways, and not in the city, I wouldn't bother changing into a skirt.

I was just trying to identify with JustJesus concerning changing clothes so much.

Ddc, If God chooses to give me a pastor husband, I will abide by whatever he would ask of me as his wife. I think you would be really surprised at how compliant I really am. I am one who really responds to being lovingly asked to do something. Demand something, and I will dig in my heels, and refuse to budge. :D I will never again marry someone who is demanding.... I would rather stay single. Believe me.. next time I will be a little more choosy. God knows just who is right for me.. I will trust him this time around.

Tuff, skirts are a lot cooler, I agree, but I have found that cleaning and doing certain things around the house, just require the freedom of movement that capri's allow. I was deep cleaning my kitchen the other night. I was trying to go from a chair to the counter top, I was washing down the cabinets way up top. I had to get down, and go get something else on, before I split the seams of the skirt I had on.

I jumped on my bike the other night, and didn't bother changing to capri's. I almost wrecked trying to ride the bike in a skirt, had to go back and change. Some things just require the proper clothing.
I don't own a full skirt, so don't bother suggesting that I could wear one riding a bike. I would then be terrified that I would get it caught in the chain.

[ddc101]

Sister Lisa,
Speaking of bikes.I love to bike ride.I went out an bought me one of those bikes with a fan in the front.A stationary bike.lv sis.c

[Marie]

:laugh: Sister Cooper, that is funny! I am thinking of doing the same thing. :)

[tufluv]

Seriously believe it or not, I also have a stationary bike, that I'm fixin to get on again in a while, and I wear a loose skirt, the type material t-shirts are made of. I just hike it up-no fear of getting it caught in those type chainless bikes! LOL! I wear it around the house, even sleep in it, well I have more than one of these type house skirts, to be sure! I am so used to it now! I went into this once back in the archives., won't bore everyone with it again. The HG just won't let me do otherwise, nor do I even consider it, I don't even own any pants, slacks warmups etc.
I know that not everyone is so compelled, and no I'm not better than anyone either, I just can do this, I chose to, was not TOLD I HAD to (as a rule) although some of the older sisters did advise me, I've felt it 'no big deal' to now be different than I was in the past, where I did so much stupid stuff w/o a rhyme or reason! lol

[foreverblessed]

Well Tuff,
I sure do understand and I wouldn't ever expect you to go against your convictions.

I have a conviction on pants, I think they are immodest to be worn by women. Most are made to accentuate the women's shape. I do however feel that you can buy some things that are baggy in the legs, and don't conform to the body indecently. Those are the kind I use when exercising or bike riding.

I do live in the North, it gets mighty cold here in the winter. It gets so cold, you wear long johns, sweats, big socks or whatever to keep warm. If you didn't, you couldn't afford the heating bill.

Ddc,
I used to own a bike like that. I got rid of it in a garage sale.

I bought my bike in May. I love riding through my neighborhood late at night. It has also become a good thing for my girls and I to do together. We wait until it gets dark, and ride for about an hour or so. Great exercise, and I am spending good time with them. Thank God for a safe city! :)

[ddc101]

I want a bike.Since we are discussing this.Bro.Cooper has what I call and old pawpaw bike one of the brothers gave him.I want a new shiney one.My neighborhood is not all that safe but everyone knows everyone so its okay.I want to ride out to the country and park my pickup and bike out where I cannot get run over.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

check out this page and go look at the photos.I could not believe that some of these women had hair longer than they are tall.Amazing.lv sis.c
www.tlhs.org

[pentecostal mom]

I like you cannot imagine having hair longer than I am but obviously some folks do. I have sent some of these pics to my apostolic friends e-mail with a note and you think you have trouble finding something new to do with your hair! HA!

[pentecostal mom]

I have a bright pink moomoo with hawaiian flowers on it that I wear in and around the house. I donot wear any pants or shorts or sweats my unsaved mother-in-law made a really big issue out of it and it is just easier to do thing this way now I can answer my door in my moomoo or my other "round the house" dresses and I don't have to feel bad or excuse myself and also when my children have company over I wouldn't feel comfortable being different from the way they know me on the "outside". Alot of my daughter's friends aren't pentecostal and I think it would reflect negatively on any witness we might have with them. You know? I am not casting any stone to anyone that wears pants inside their home what you do in your home is your businesss I am just putting my 2 cents in.

[searching]

This is a pic of a friend of mine. It's not a good pic, and I've tried to touch it up a bit. Her hair measures 57 inches, and she is only 62 inches tall. Her hair is also curly, so it doesn't seem as long in this pic, but the longest strands are to her lower calf.


Me...

[LadyRev]

Now theres some hair! Its beautiful! :)

[ddc101]

That is some beautiful long hair.When my daughter comes home I want to snap a shot of her hair and post it.It is about down to her calves.She is a hairdo freak.She has no problem finding new ways to fix her hair.
I too am a housedress person.But mostly I get up in the am and dress for the day and wear the same thing all day.Its just easier for me since I am usually doing church business on my days off from my job.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

Heres one Jenny

[cinthia]

Hi all ,
I just have one question, If you feel convicted not to wear pants and God is the one who convicted you, then why wear them at all? For he sees and knows all.... He can see in your homes and he can see at night. We should not live one way at home and one way in public..... We should be the same all the time, for we are doing this for jesus and not for man..... I know I am anyway! Just a question:)

[Renee29]

Well, we go naked around the house, we wouldn't do this in public. We wear sexy nightgowns, teddies etc at home for our husbands, but we wouldn't do this in public. I wouldn't wear a bathing suit in public, but I would in the privacy of my back yard. What's the diff?

[ddc101]

Cinthia,
When Adam and Eve were in the garden why did they try to cover up? They had the knowledge of good and evil since they ate of its fruit.We have within us the knowledge since.It has been relayed since Adam.I am going to say this.That since I was small I knew what right and wrong was.I did not need anyone to tell me.It was within me to know it.A baby might go naked in innocence but when you are old enough to know you are naked you are old enough to put on modest apparel.But also consider that Adam and Eve went out and made themselves aprons with fig leaves.God however slay an animal and made them coats.Coats cover a whole lot more than aprons.lv sis.c

[ApostolicLady]

Hey
I just now noticed that searching placed a pic of my hair on here. My hair is very wavy and curly. Any new hairdo idea? Too long for a fan bun and french twist anymore. Most of the time I just slick it down and twist it all up on the back of my head and man what a big twist!! By the way, Lady Discusser had a new slick Do look.

[cinthia]

I beleive that Privavcy is the key word. I was just asking a question refering to wearing pants at home and not in public. I see a huge problem with this, but I am seeing that not all apostolic women are convicted of true holiness, I see that alot of women are doing this just because it is expected and if we are doing it for the wrong reason, why do it? That is my point.

[Renee29]

I am convicted of true holiness. However, I think you can wear whatever you want in your own home. I go braless around the house, I would NEVER do this in public. Does this mean I don't have a conviction about modesty? No, it doesn't.

Sometimes it takes people YEARS to get their own convictions about holiness. We shouldn't push their growth level. They will get a conviction in their own time. Yes, some women may be doing it just for the man, but the bible says to obey our spiritual authority. I think only God can judge if someone is convicted of "true" holiness.

[ddc101]

Apostolic Lady I have that kind of hair.I found a product called
Simply Silk by Matrix.It is the best to take tangles out that you can get from putting your hair in a bun or washing it.
I like to take the front and part it on the side and wrap it around and then do something with the back.I have a big bun as well but theres alot to work with.I also like to do the top and braid the rest into one braid.lv sis.c

[cinthia]

Deut.22:5 A women should not wear anything that pertains to a man and a man should not wear anything that pertains to a women, for this is an abomination unto the Lord. The word abomination means to detest to hate. My question is this is it ok to be an abomination inside your home but not outside your home? Going braless at home has nothing to do with wearing pants in public, or in your home. Being naked in your house has nothing to do with wearing pants in your home or out of your home. Yes we may wear things for our husbands, but then again maybe some do not, I think the thing to remember is that our bodies our not our own they are for our husbands. Question, would your husband put on a bathing suit or skimpy clothing to wear to bed? I am sure the answer is NO, the reason is , it is womens clothing!!!! My point here is that I was referring to pants, I think that when people get into all the little ins and outs of this, they are just trying to "skirt" around the issue. I can only speak for myself, but I never wear pants, I used to wear jogging pants at home and shorts, but i have children who observe everything I am doing and I do not want to confuss them, I also had a revelation that it is never okay to wear something that is an abomination to Jesus, not even in my own home!I had that revelation about 4 years ago, and thank God I did when my children were young. I never want to put any kind of doubt in their minds, the influences of this world are strong enough. I want to be a stronger influence in their lives than anything else! I want them to love holiness and I do not ever want them to think it is a drudgery to be seperated from this filthy world!Anyway, I have to get busy , I homeschool my kids, I hope that you all have a blessed day!:}

[foreverblessed]

Cynthia, where we disagree, is I don't believe pants as an article of clothing are an abomination to God.

Culture changes. Pants are considered women's clothing just as much as men's. They don't just pertain to a man today, but women also. There was a time when all people wore robes, regardless of gender. The distinction was in colors and fabrics and in the headress. In 2003, wearing a pair of pants is NOT considered cross dressing. Men wearing dresses is still considered unacceptable to our western culture.

My belief is that Deut 22:5 was referring to the perverted practice of cross dressing in worship to idols.

My convictions with pants are that they are immodest because they are made to fit closer to the body of a women, than for men. Most not all are designed to highlight and accentuate the female anatomy. Skirts are more modest and more feminine, that is the only reason they are the majority of my wardrobe.

[ddc101]

Sister Lisa,
I don't think what God considers an abomination changes from year to year or culture to culture.Can you give me scripture for that please? lv sis.c

[foreverblessed]

Ddc,
The pants themselves are not the abomination. If that were true, then we should never wear ruffles on our shirts, because men wore them first! They also wore high heeled shoes also. They used to curl their hair, with big puffy hairstyles. Dress and clothing changes throughout the centuries. Culture changes.

Every time period has clothing that is just cultural. To say that a pair of pants is the article of clothing that was written about in Duet 22, isn't scriptural. Please give me that scripture please.

60 years ago, in our western culture, yes.. I agree pants did pertain to men only. Not in 2003, I am sorry, and this generation is going to look at you in a daze, if you say that they only pertain to a man.

Dresses or skirts are a distinct article of clothing that only pertains to a women, like a tie and suit does to a man. To me, it would be wrong to put on a suit and tie, because it belongs only to a man.

We have great many articles of clothing that are unisex, and what do you do about those? Colors, fabrics, styles... that tells the difference. ...socks, shoes, boots, scarfs, coats, gloves...

[cinthia]

Sis. Lisa,
Back when Jesus walked the earth and way before, the woman never wore pants. they always wore dresses, the men however could gird up their clothing, they did this while they were working,ect. In todays society it is known that dresses and skirts are for women and Men do not wear them, but we have women pants???? I do not think so, this world can call them women pants and women may wear them, but they are made in the likeness of Men.Yes our culture may change and fashion styles change and all that, but one thing remains the same forever, and that is Jesus, he has not changed and what his word says has not changed, and if it was only acceptable for women in those days to wear dresses, then it is only acceptable today. God bless, Cinthia

[ddc101]

Sister Lisa,
Show me where godly people wore these things in culture? If we are looking at the world and the trends of the world maybe.I feel if the word calls things that pertain to a man abomination then whatever it may be if its masculine attire we need to refrain.But that is me.I would not like to risk my eternity based on a fleshly desire.Also I do check my articles of clothing to see that they are feminine.And really ruffles are very feminine.They were part of the attire of british men as the wigs were.These were not men who worked for Jesus.They in fact sat around looking pretty.How can a man in a wig plow a field or one in a fancy shirt with ruffles work a team of oxen? think about it.lv sis.c

[Renee29]

Based on that logic, I don't understand how women can wear t-shirts, blazers etc. or anything unisex. This is something I've often wondered about.....we've drawn the line at pants, but what about the rest?

[Cherokee]

Just read all the comments on this discussion and again it is basically tit for tat.
Real holiness is the issue and it is an affair of the heart.
After we have consulted God and studied and opened our minds and thoughts up to conviction do we then go against what the Spirit by the Holy Ghost whispers to us is our reasonable service? For the Holy Ghost will lead and guide you into all Truth.
Am I trying to please self? Man? or God?
What are my motives behind what I am doing?
Does my actions and appearance bring Glory to God? To His Temple which is my body, soul, mind and spirit?
Somewhere in the back of my mind rings the thought, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and a little leaven, leaventh the whole lump.
Also, He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.
So, if ever we were convicted of anyone thing when we first came in innocence to the Holy Ghost and now those same convictions are no longer as strong, it could just be we are allowing our conscious to be seared by giving in each time we do it until it no longer convicts us, and that is a very scary thought!

Just some serious thinking on the matter and later I'll give a scripture on why I think we sometime allow little foxes in to spoil the vine so to speak.

But on the lighter side! LOL Think about this!
-If I could wear my collars up to my chin and my dresses
down to my toes and my sleeves down to the tips of my fingers and a hat on my head-----I would never have to roll or clip my hair again (really I wouldn't even have to comb it!)
----- I would never have to use creams or tanning lotions, or panty hose again!
----- And I wouldn't have to worry if my shoes matched or not.
-----And everyone would probably call me eccentric instead of apostolic
because women that are truly adorned with Holiness shine and sparkle under the anointing that comes with it and they always look so neat and nice
and carry themselves with such grace and dignity and when they open their mouth the law of kindness and love of God flows so freely
that I desire to possess what they possess but they have given themselves totally to the Holy Ghost and you KNOW without doubt they KNOW how to get a hold of God!

This is how I want to look when standing next to the world so they can see for themselves that I am different and dare to be different because I am in Love with Him!

I have met ladies of this caliber and they taught me the old pathways and I can place my head on my pillow at night knowing I have not wounded my Beloved or brought Him any shame or disgrace by the way I have chosen to dress or act when He and I are in the presence of others and would not allow the enemy the opportunity to think that I would even consider flirting with him.

Does this bring to mind any apostolic women you have met and admired in Jesus?
I have been blessed to have known some.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Love Ya' in Jesus!!!...Cherokee

[cinthia]

Sister Dever,
I think that was so beautiful. Very well spoken, I could not agree more! I am realizing more and more how Holiness is so much more than "standards" If it is not in your heart then you will always struggle with it! Holiness is so much bigger than Hair ,pants, And make-up! It is truely and issue of the heart! Thank you for that inspiring post!

[ddc101]

Renee then next time you are dressing or out shopping let that conviction be your guide.
Sis.Dever,
I await you next post.That was awesome.The godly woman that comes to mind for me is Sis.Freeman.What a doll she is.Never an ill word but full of encouragement.lv sis.c

[Karen1956UPC]

This is the first time posting on this forum and i am really enjoying this. reading what everyone has to say. I think that as long as your hair is uncut it is acceptable to God. You know there are many white people that have a hard time growing their hair. My pastors wife where's her hair up all the time at church but when u see her out it really isn't very long because she using hot sticks etc on her hair, but it is uncut. The Bible doesn't say your hair has to be a certain length because we are all different. My hair is down to my hips. Some ladies hair will never get that long. I agree about the hat comment. Your hat isn't adequate covering.
Karen

[foreverblessed]

Cynthia,
They didn't wear dresses in the bible days. Everyone wore ROBES, including the men. Only difference was colors, fabrics, and the women wore things on the head.
Pants were first worn by Chinese and they were first worn by women, not men.

[cinthia]

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I am still waiting for the scriptures that Ddc101 asked for. What did the women wear uder their "Robes"? Robes are made in the likeness of dresses. They probably were not as nice or fashionable, but all the same made in their likeness.

[ddc101]

I think those were first worn by middle eastern women I read but not as pants as pajamas.Hey I figure the reason the men over there were so for it is they made those poor ladies work in the field and boy don't they love to lust over the harem girls...sis.c

[foreverblessed]

and I am still waiting on the scripture that I asked Ddc for!

[ddc101]

Sorry I missed it sister Lisa which was that? lv sis.c

[LadyRev]

This is funny...the Hair thread is discussing apparell and the Appearance thread is discussing hair (although it has recently taken a "shopping" detour!) :D

[milady]

As far as the hair question goes.

I believe a womans long hair is her glory and she is not to cut it.
The length of her hair doesn't matter. As long as it remains un-cut.
I do not believe that a woman needs to cover her head with a hat. Because her long hair is her covering.

[ddc101]

Hi Sister,
I could not cover my hair with a hat if I wanted to unless I had one of those crocheted things the rastafarians wear.I have big hair and big hair cannot fit in a hat.I do however know some who wear veils.If it is a private conviction then amen to them.I do not wear one.But I do wear my hair up in church as it attracts alot of attention.Much more than a hat or veil would.lv sis.c

[Anna~]

foreverblessed (http://goodnewscafe.net/member.php?find=lastposter&t=2533): Amen, sis. First off, you will not recieve a clear answer to your question on pants, why is that? Because there is no pant issue to be found in God's word, PERIOD!


The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. Deuteronomy 22:5 (KJV)
1. The passage doesn't clearly prohibit pants on women but there are very clear prohibitions for eating pork, not keeping Friday/Saturday (Sabbath) holy, not wearing mixed apparel of linen and wool etc., so even if there was (which there isn't), it still wouldn't mean it is for us today if it isn't taught to Gentiles in the new covenant.

2. If Deuteronomy 22:5 is to be seen as a law to be obeyed today, then a consistent interpretation would mean the prohibited mixed threads, Kosher foods and other laws in the same chapter should also be followed. Why are anti-pants teachers overlooking these others?

3. If the Deuteronomy 22 passage is to be used as a principle, it should also be applicable to prohibit other male garments on women such as t-shirts, boots, underwear, scarves, gloves, sneakers, etc. Why is this principle not followed to its natural implications?

4. If the Deuteronomy 22 passage is to be used as a principle for today (and the previous three points are overlooked), then it remains to be proved that pants are men's clothing. Culturally they were on women in China long before the Western men left off wearing tights (which by the same principle should be called men's apparel!) and hence fail on historical grounds as well.

In ancient Assyria and Egypt, women wore clothing with legs in them. This was before the time of Moses. Men on the other hand wore tunics or skirts.

History shows that women in China wore pants just like the men did for hundreds of years.

Other islands in the Pacific were the same. Women wore pants. The men wore skirts.

In ancient Egypt their normal clothing was a loincloth wrapped around the hips and girdled at the waist. A cape was worn on the shoulders and later a long garment called a kalasiris was introduced. Men wore this as a skirt around their waist; women wore it over their upper body, or as a full-length garment that sometimes had sleeves.

The Hebrews, Assyrians, and Babylonians all wore a long, sleeved garment similar to a nightshirt, with cloaks or kalasiris-like over-garments. These clothes appear to be stiff, with fringed and tasseled borders and square or rounded corners.

For thousands of years in history we don't find pants and it is a relatively modern and culturally brief period of history where there was a distinction of pants only on men and dresses only on women.

Even today in the Pacific and other areas of the world, many continue to wear a sarong or robe on males and females with only a small distinction between them.

So historically speaking, church is wrong. Women wore pants first and men followed. So who is sinning by wearing pants? If we go by the church standards, men are the guilty sinners.

Again we have to look at Israel in biblical times. Both men and women wore robes but there were distinguishing differences in them. Colors were different and so was the material. The same is true today for women's pants. Ask a church preacher to go to Wal-Mart and buy a pair of women's pants and put them on and they will tell you no way, they are too effeminate.

More...

[Anna~]

While Deuteronomy 22 verse 5 is often quoted, verse 30 is often overlooked...

"a man shall not take his father’s wife, nor discover his father’s skirt" Deuteronomy 22:30 KJV
If ladies wanted to legislate doctrine for men, here's a good place they could have started! Did men wear skirts back then?

Yes!


Is it Biblical? Yes.


Here in verse 30 you have it straight from the KJV Bible that all you women wearing skirts are cross dressers! This is really men's apparel. Consider this verse...

Then David arose, and cut off the skirt of Saul’s robe privily 1 Sam 24:4

There are many more Bible verses for men wearing skirts than women wearing them! The Bible speaks of men's skirts twelve times: (Dt 22:30, Dt 27:20, Ru 3:9, 1 Sa 15:27, 1 Sa 24:4, 1 Sa 24:5, 1 Sa 24:11, 1 Sa 24:11, Eze 16:8, Hag 2:12, Hag 2:12, and Zec 8:23).

I believe women should not wear men's pants and men should not wear women's pants. If you want to use a modesty approach to this teaching, to me the pants cover the legs better than a dress and more so when a woman is working and has to bend over so much.

Church preachers say that if a woman's dress is 3 to 4 inches below the knee then this does not happen, but I beg their pardon. I have also seen these women in long dresses outside and a big gust of wind blows hard and blows the skirt or dress up above the woman's head and guess what? They are more exposed than if they were in pants.

The basic arguments that the church use are erroneous. There is also no Biblical precedent or teaching regarding males alone wearing pants. Although there may be some cultural norms in some countries today, there is no prohibition by God and it is never referred to (as many falsely preach today) as an abomination to God. This is a sad example of denominational ignorance and eisegesis (reading meaning into the text) instead of exegesis (reading the text's meaning).

Hebrew for the word translated 'garment'

Let's look at the Hebrew word that 'garment' is translated from: 8071 simlah (sim-law'); Strong says: "perhaps by permutation for the feminine of 5566 (through the idea of a cover assuming the shape of the object beneath); a dress."

Some would focus in on the word Strong uses above (dress), saying that the word in this passage teaches that the dress is female attire. They overlook the fact that Strong goes on to say...

"especially a mantle: apparel, cloth (-es, -ing), garment, raiment. comp. 8008."

Strong says the majority of times it is translated raiment, clothes and garment (as it is here in Deuteronomy 22:5 in the KJV). Not once is it translated into the English word 'dress'. Rather similar to when we say men and women's dress sense, we are not talking about only female attire. The word means clothes, not dresses!

Some commentators teach the passage is specifically prohibiting women wearing men's armour, but whether it's apparel or armour there is no teaching here that pants are for men only.

And Last...:)

[Anna~]

Now on to the hair!



Church teaches that it is sin for a woman to cut their hair, trim it or in any way break it. They take this teaching from the 11th chapter of I Corinthians.





If we look at this scripture we find that at the beginning of this chapter the Apostle Paul was dealing with a literal hair covering or veil. Later on in the chapter he mentions that long hair on a woman is considered part of her covering and that there is power in that long hair. Yet, if we look at this scripture we cannot find anywhere that Paul declared how long a woman's hair was to be.


We know historically that in Corinth the temple prostitutes wore their hair as short as the men did. Some even shaved their heads, which some of the Jewish tribes considered shameful. This is why Paul kept speaking of if a woman did not wear a head covering then she should have her head shaved. He did declare that it was shameful for a woman to have all of her hair cut off, but no where did he say she could not cut her hair. Matter of fact, it declares that a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign of authority because of the angels.

Church says this covering on her head is her hair and yes, Paul said long hair was given to her as a covering, but it would not make sense that this whole chapter is dedicated to long hair because he said if she refused to wear a head covering then let her shave her head.

Long hair on a woman has always been dictated by society. We don't know what length a woman's hair was in those days. Also let us look at something else.


It is obvious that in Paul's day it was considered shameful for a woman to shave her head but that had not always been in Israel. We read in the law that God told Moses that if they conquered a country and captured women and a Israelite man found one of the women attractive and wanted to marry her that she was to shave her head and pare her nails. (Deuteronomy 21:12.)


Also in studying Jewish history, we find where in some of the tribes it was a custom that when a woman became betrothed to her fiance she would shave her hair and wear a wig until the day her hair grew out after she was married. The reasoning for this was that hair was considered part of what attracted men to women and these women did not want to be attractive to any man than her husband to be. If any other man tried to seduce her, she would remove her wig and show him her shaved head, which repulsed him and let him know she was betrothed.


If a woman cutting her hair was sinful, why did God allow these heathen women to shave their heads before marrying an Israelite husband?

It is not the cutting of the hair that is sinful. It is when men and women want to emulate one another and look like one another until you cannot distinguish man from woman. God hates unisex.


If we study the lifestyles of the people during the life of Paul and the Apostles, we find that the prostitutes of the temple cut their hair as short as the Greek and Roman men but the male temple prostitutes wore their hair long. It is obvious that Paul, in dealing with the Christians in Corinth, was using his surroundings for his message. If what he said was fully true about men, then his own people would be sinning for the men never trimmed the sides of their hair and wore it long, as under the law.


We must understand that God wants men and women to be separate in appearance. Women not to cut their hair so short they look like men and men not to wear their hair so long they look like women.

The doctrine of uncut hair is thought of by many in the church as being 'revealed' to them by God and is seen as one of the pillars for identifying people as the 'true Apostolics' or 'Pentecostals'. In following this teaching many extra-Biblical rules and guidelines have been developed which are as complex as any of the many 'hand-washing' ordinances invented by zealous Jewish believers of Christ's day. These modern extra-Biblical rules regarding 1 Corinthians 11 I will address in depth.


This teaching, followed to an extreme, results in a heavy burden of guilt to ladies under it especially since some even teach that a lady not ever trimming or cutting her hair prevents evil, deception and rebellion from entering her home or father and mother's home and so if adultery and sin enters a home some will blame the lady for cutting her hair. It can also be used as the reason any tragedy, sickness or calamity has come on individuals.


'No cutting' ignores the real teaching of the passage (Paul teaching wearing a physical veil, saying that if the woman isn't covered she may as well shear her hair, and comparing long hair on men and long hair on women to encourage veiling). This is more than likely because while in the church it is very difficult to look without bias at the passage and just be open to what the Bible teaches. It is so clear now to me that anything beyond the Bible's clear commands, by implication, must be omitted by God for a reason. If He wanted to make uncut hair important (as He did with many other issues) He would have made it clear in the Bible. I personally have no problem with any lady choosing freely to not cut her hair or any organization making it their distinctive but I believe it is Pharisaical and legalistic to put the traditions and desires of men on the same level of authority as the teaching and Word of God.

If the word 'long' in 1 Corinthians 11 really means hair without any cutting at all (to let grow),

It follows that...


If a woman has hair to her waist but trims her ends, her head is uncovered and her hair is not long. BUT if a man has hair to his waist but trims his ends his hair is long!


Many teachers of this doctrine would consider men like the men in Megadeath, or even the Beatles, as having long hair, and if converted to their church, would teach them from the same passage in 1 Corinthians 11 that they should cut their hair 'short' (measured to above the collar) out of the same verse saying it's a shame to have long hair. (I wonder how it is that Samson's long hair pleased God?)

In other words, for these teachers, trimmed is not long enough for women but it's too long for men. This is clearly a double standard.

Jesus compared the prayers of the proud Pharisee who relied on his works and left in his sins with those of the humble sinner who humbly relied on God's mercy and left justified. Friend what importance do you think God really places on their hair length? If the one crying for mercy were a female with cut hair would God have refused to justify her because she cut her hair? I think not. How would the story go if the Pharisee of Jesus day were a modern church woman praying, "I thank you for the revelation of 1 Corinthians 11. I thank You that I have never cut my hair, not like this other sinful lady"?

What's even more disturbing, is how we are told to seek out God's word and truth, but when a saint ventures out and does this, they are labeled disobedient to authority that's over them, or worse, rebelling. God Himself commands each of us to ask and study all things out. Yes, even what comes out of the pastor's mouth. He can be sincerly wrong in his own understanding of God's word.

Foreverblessed, I would also strongly encourage people to use the Strong's Concordance when studying out God's word. One thing you'll find very interesting, the word "saint" isn't found in the Hebrew and Greek Bible verses. The word they use is "slave". I am a slave unto God. I, John the Baptist, am a slave for God. The word saint is never used. The English version can be very misleading. Which can also cause us to add onto God's words and teachings, things that aren't even taught in God's word. God Bless~

[Anna~]

Hair removal in the Bible! What does Scriptures teach?

1. Numbers 6:9,18-19 show God's instructions for a man or woman to shave their head. This applied to those who had taken the vow of a Nazarite.

2. Leviticus 13:33 covers God's instructions for partly shaving the head of a man or woman when checking for leprosy.

3. Leviticus 14:8-9 again gives God's instructions for shaving off all the hair of a leper (man or woman) in their cleansing.

4. Deuteronomy 21:12 tells God's instructions for a woman to shave her head when an Israelite wanted to marry her after she was taken captive by them in war against their enemies. In the book quoted above, it is stated that "the ancient Israelites considered the shaving of a woman's head humbling to her (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)." This same idea is expressed later in the book. A study of these Scriptures and how the word 'humbled' is used in other verses will show that the woman was 'humbled' because the man had sexual relations with her and the fact that her hair was shaved had nothing to do with this so called "process of humiliation." If this reasoning is to be followed, then it would also be humbling to pare your nails, etc.

The word translated 'humbled' is 'anah.' It is translated this way seven times and 'humble' four times. Take some time to compare how this word is used in the following Scriptures (bold lettering is mine):



"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing." Judges 19:24 (KJV) "Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. ...Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." Deuteronomy 22:24,29 (KJV)

"In thee have they discovered their fathers' nakedness: in thee have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution. And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter." Ezekiel 22:10,11 (KJV)



The acts described in Deuteronomy 21:10-14 were not part of any "process of humiliation." The woman was not disgraced, but was humbled through the sexual act. Read this passage again now that it is clear what humble meant. "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her." (KJV)



5. Isaiah 3:24 shows God saying he would give the women of Judah baldness instead of well set hair due to their haughtiness. This does refer metaphorically to the act in an unfavorable manner, but is only in reference to totally removing the hair and not merely cutting. This was to be done by God, not the woman.



6. I Corinthians 11:5,6 speaks of shaving a woman's hair if she did not wear a covering when praying or prophesying. This also refers to the act in an unfavorable manner, yet it does not show it being done.



7. Jeremiah 7:29 shows God saying "cut off thine hair" because the people of Judah were following other gods. (Some non-Israelites would shave their heads in allegiance to their god.) This metaphorically refers to the act in an unfavorable manner, but it would be in reference to both men and women totally removing the hair and not merely cutting. The Hebrew word used for 'hair' in this passage was only used one time as 'hair.' The definition is "prop. something set apart, i.e. (abstr.) dedication (of a priest or Nazarite); hence (concr.) unshorn locks; also (by impl.) a chaplet (espec. of royalty)." 'Cut' is "gazaz," the same word which was also translated 'shaved,' 'shear,' 'shearers' and 'shearing.' (This is discussed elsewhere.) It means "a prim. root [akin to 1468]; to cut off; spec. to shear a flock, or shave the hair; fig. to destroy an enemy." It is clear that the total removal of hair was meant, just as at the end of a Nazarite vow.

I believe that God was saying for them to remove their hair as they were no longer separated to God due to their spiritual adultery. Since they were showing by their actions that they were no longer consecrated to God, they should also shave their head to show their vow to God was over. No, everyone had not literally taken a vow of the Nazarite, but the Israelites were to be separated unto God. They were not to defile themselves by worshipping other gods. This Scripture cannot be used to support the belief that women never cut their hair. If this logic is to be followed, then the men never cut their hair either!

8. One Scripture which has been used to show it was a shame for a woman to cut her hair is found in Numbers 5:18: "And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:" (KJV)



It would be embarrassing for a woman to go through this ceremony when she was accused of committing adultery. This happened when there was no witness, but the husband became jealous. It also happened if the husband became jealous and she had not committed adultery.

I do not believe that this verse shows that the woman's hair was shaved. The word translated 'uncover' is "para" and means "a prim. root; to loosen; by impl. to expose, dismiss; fig. absolve, begin." It is rendered as 'loosen' or 'unbind' in some versions.

There were certain times where a woman's head would be shaved as we have studied, yet I would not consider them all a 'shame,' especially with regard to the Nazarite vow. The biblical punishment for a woman caught in adultery was death, not the shaving of her head. The instructions in Numbers was for when there was just a suspicion or the act was committed without witnesses. There are not many references to a woman's hair in the Bible. One cannot assume it was or was not cut simply because it is not mentioned. Even if it were not done, there is a big difference in it being a custom as compared to a biblical command. God Bless~

[ohiomom]

i have always told my daughter that her hair is her glory which at one time she throught i was crazy till she read it in the bible... i use to cut mine also but i have not cut it for 7 months since i got back into church. :goof:



Here is my first post:

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

the bible says it is a glory to her.

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

1391 doxa (dox'-ah);

from the base of 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):

KJV-- dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.

[ddc101]

So historically speaking, church is wrong. Women wore pants first and men followed. So who is sinning by wearing pants? If we go by the church standards, men are the guilty sinners.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sister Anna,
I take it from your posts that you wear pants,makeup,jewelry and cut your hair.While I do none of the above as I see it biblical and on a personal consecration level I would ask that you take all standards discussions to the standards thread.I also wanted to say that I will never tell anyone on the cafe that its OKAY to do any of the things I feel at liberty to do.We are not a web church and each individual here has their own pastor.lv sis.c

[Anna~]

[/QUOTE] Sister Anna,
I take it from your posts that you wear pants,makeup,jewelry and cut your hair.While I do none of the above as I see it biblical and on a personal consecration level I would ask that you take all standards discussions to the standards thread.I also wanted to say that I will never tell anyone on the cafe that its OKAY to do any of the things I feel at liberty to do.We are not a web church and each individual here has their own pastor.lv sis.c[/QUOTE]


I find it upsetting that you would even ask this of a person,( pants,makeup,jewelry and cut your hair). After all these are not a salvation issue right? Nor should we as people called of God use these as our guide stick. Do they measure up, to whom? God or man?

First off everything I post is backed up with Bible!

What you should be asking me is.

1. Have I been baptize in Jesus name?

2. Do I the holy ghost?

3. Do I have the The Fruits of GOD?

Righteousness, Gentleness, Meekness, Joy, Goodness, Long-Suffering, Boldness, Witness Love, Temperance, Faithfulness, Peace, Kindness.

No instead you ask about my outward man! My outward has nothing to do with my inward heart. The fact you even ask about my outward person tell me you judge a person walk by this means. Sorry if I have offend you with Gods word, not mine, but Gods on these matter. And then you say with much pride (I do none of the above) . What bearing does this have anyway, so I should just assume you are of God because you do none of these things? God forbid. Nore did I say anyone should do these things, I’m sorry if Gods word offend you so. I think you should take this up with Him, not I. God Bless

[NanaRenan]

Sister Anna,
I take it from your posts that you wear pants,makeup,jewelry and cut your hair.While I do none of the above as I see it biblical and on a personal consecration level I would ask that you take all standards discussions to the standards thread.I also wanted to say that I will never tell anyone on the cafe that its OKAY to do any of the things I feel at liberty to do.We are not a web church and each individual here has their own pastor.lv sis.c
I find it upsetting that you would even ask this of a person,( pants,makeup,jewelry and cut your hair). After all these are not a salvation issue right? Nor should we as people called of God use these as our guide stick. Do they measure up, to whom? God or man?

First off everything I post is backed up with Bible!

What you should be asking me is.

1. Have I been baptize in Jesus name?

2. Do I the holy ghost?

3. Do I have the The Fruits of GOD?

Righteousness, Gentleness, Meekness, Joy, Goodness, Long-Suffering, Boldness, Witness Love, Temperance, Faithfulness, Peace, Kindness.

No instead you ask about my outward man! My outward has nothing to do with my inward heart. The fact you even ask about my outward person tell me you judge a person walk by this means. Sorry if I have offend you with Gods word, not mine, but Gods on these matter. And then you say with much pride (I do none of the above) . What bearing does this have anyway, so I should just assume you are of God because you do none of these things? God forbid. Nore did I say anyone should do these things, I’m sorry if Gods word offend you so. I think you should take this up with Him, not I. God Bless

Sister Anna, no need to be upset...I think you misunderstood our respected Moderator, Sister C. She wasn't ASKING about your outward appearance, she merely made an obvious assumption based on the issues you seem so vehemently in favor of. As I see it, this remark was made in passing on the way to the more important point -- of taking standards discussions to the standards thread. That is all. Its simple and nothing personal against you.

In turn, the logical assumption one would make about the remark "I do none of the above" isn't that she is judging anyone or being prideful, but that she has chosen to take her consecration to the Lord to the next level based on her interpretation of the Word -- regardless of what concordance or translation she uses. And, while acknowledging that you may or may not see it the same way, she's asking you to not preach your personal standards as "okay" to those who might disagree or have not yet formed a concrete conviction one way or the other.

[ddc101]

Sister Anna,
I take it from your posts that you wear pants,makeup,jewelry and cut your hair.While I do none of the above as I see it biblical and on a personal consecration level I would ask that you take all standards discussions to the standards thread.I also wanted to say that I will never tell anyone on the cafe that its OKAY to do any of the things I feel at liberty to do.We are not a web church and each individual here has their own pastor.lv sis.c[/QUOTE]


I find it upsetting that you would even ask this of a person,( pants,makeup,jewelry and cut your hair). After all these are not a salvation issue right? Nor should we as people called of God use these as our guide stick. Do they measure up, to whom? God or man?

First off everything I post is backed up with Bible!

What you should be asking me is.

1. Have I been baptize in Jesus name?

2. Do I the holy ghost?

3. Do I have the The Fruits of GOD?

Righteousness, Gentleness, Meekness, Joy, Goodness, Long-Suffering, Boldness, Witness Love, Temperance, Faithfulness, Peace, Kindness.

No instead you ask about my outward man! My outward has nothing to do with my inward heart. The fact you even ask about my outward person tell me you judge a person walk by this means. Sorry if I have offend you with Gods word, not mine, but Gods on these matter. And then you say with much pride (I do none of the above) . What bearing does this have anyway, so I should just assume you are of God because you do none of these things? God forbid. Nore did I say anyone should do these things, I’m sorry if Gods word offend you so. I think you should take this up with Him, not I. God Bless[/QUOTE]


Sister Anna,
As a moderator I am asking you not to keep taking things so personal.I simply made statements and I maam cannot see your outward appearance and sure am not judging you on it.But you also cannot see mine and I see that you in many of your posts use the word to back your opinion.Please refrain from standards converstations here at the ladies area.If you cannot keep from getting overly anxious then please go and take it to the STANDARDS thread.I have ask many times and this is the last time I am going to post these words.
Stop trying to stir contention and the Lords words do not offend me in the least.I do not need to take anything up with him in this area of my life.This is settled for me.I am working on GREATER WORKS....lv sis.c




Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

[Anna~]

I don't understand how one can reply here without making it somewhat personal. When I make my post I’m not referring to any one here or pointing a finger at so-and so. True, I don’t know you, but I do think it’s wrong to just presume someone wear pant, cuts there hair or wears makeup because they do not agree with the church teaching on these things. And I do know of many who do judge others by this manner, please I’m not saying you do this. I do not care how someone dresses that’s not my job, nor is it ours. What I do find dishearten is the fact so many women repeat what they been taught by the church on this matter of hair, dress, pants, makeup, yet they do not understand what the Word of God says on these issues. And we walk around telling people about this topics yet we cannot back it up with scripture, because there is none. No wonder people outside of us look and say "what planet are you from"! We have added unto Gods word, that’s all I’m trying to say. These thing are not a problem with me, nor likewise will I use them as a stumbling block to outsiders. I have moved on to better things, such as the Love of God and His grace for all mankind. God Bless

[SoldOut2Jesus]

I didn't read everything that was written about uncut hair but I read a lot of what has been written.

I was thinking about what one lady wrote concerning "the hair being our covering verses a wife's husband being her head".

This is what is coming to my mind:

We know that the Old Testament was a type and a shadow of the New Testament. We know that God used the Jewish people and the laws and customs of the Jewish people as a kind of type and shadow of the church.
Why could it not be that the hair issue is a type and a shadow to the proper relationship a wife has to her husband?

First, the Word of God says that it is a shame for a women to cut her hair. It does not say that it is a sin. This statement shows that a women should not want to cut her hair because although it is not a sin, cutting your hair displeases God. Now, we should always want to do what pleases God. When we willing submit to God's will concerning hair this pleases God. God says that our uncut hair is our covering in the sense that it shows that we are willing to submit ourselves to Him.

Second, a wife should submit to her husband as her head. This likewise is pleasing to God. One way a married women reflects the fact that she is being submissive to her husband by her open statement concerning her hair. In other words, if a wife (that knows what the Word of God says about cutting hair) openly and defiantly rebels and cuts her hair then she is making a statement that she has not submitted to God and is not submitting to her husband.

Third, if a single sister that knows what the Word of God says about cutting hair, cuts her hair. A single man could easily assume that if a sister will not be submissive to the will of God concerning this then she surely won't submit to a man as her husband.

Now, I am not saying that we should judge anyone because the Word says to judge not lest you be judged. An example, I know this sister who had brain surgery and had to cut her hair because of the surgery. If a person met her without knowing all the facts, they may think that she is a little rebel. We should not put ourselves on the judgement seat. That is God's job.

What I am saying is that "the hair being our covering verses a wife's husband being her head" are not statements contrary to each other. Actually one is a type and a shadow of the other.

This is my opinion of how the two statements inner relate. I cannot say that I have heard it taught in this manner. However, one thing is for certain, the Word of God never contradicts itself. Everything always makes perfect sense when we study to find the answers. The Word says to "Study to show thyself approved". We need not be ashamed if we rightfully divide the Word. Study the Word of God and apply it. The Word says that the Holy Ghost will lead and guide us into all truth. It also says that we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free. Free from what? Well, for one thing we will be free from not knowing. By divine revelation we can understand those things that we tend to not understand.

I hope that I explained this in a manner that makes sense. Again, this is my opinion of how the two statement inner relate. I haven't heard it taught in this manner.

Love in Christ,
SoldOut2Jesus

I have another question...but as for the AfroAmerican women, I can't see that it is their fault if it does not grow., and this is not meant to imply that their hair never grows either, for I've seen great hair on all our sisters! IF a womans hair can grow, it should be let grow. The thing is to not 'cut' it, period.
It will then be 'uncut'!! That is my take.
AS for the other question:
IF a woman's hair is given to her for a covering...isn't that to cover......what? Her entire body? Don't clothes do that well enough? I just don't get it very well, what some try to interpret that as. Or is it [long hair] meant to just cover her head, for if it is just her head, it would not have to be very long for that! lol
Another person once said or commented to me that "if it is meant to be HER covering, I thought her submission to the authority of her husband IS her covering...he is HER HEAD! Should not his HEAD be the one covered"?
But that also cannot be, for the husband's head is GOD! GOD does not need to be covered..
this seems to go 'round in circles! :eek:
BTW: I was NOT one of those 'ladies' asking for this discussion, but I'm going along anyway, to keep this going...they may be asleep already, or not logged in - whatever, I'm sure JV4H would be here if she was on! lol

[Balu]

I'm an Indian and I have a black hair. I have seen many christian women with black hair have coloured their hair even in my church. Can we do so?

[Abigail4476]

What I do find dishearten is the fact so many women repeat what they been taught by the church on this matter of hair, dress, pants, makeup, yet they do not understand what the Word of God says on these issues. And we walk around telling people about this topics yet we cannot back it up with scripture, because there is none.
I find it disheartening that you have made the assumption that the women here are merely repeating mindless drivel they have given no thought to themselves. You are making an assumption about our collective character and about our intelligence.

First of all, there is not a single Apparel Rule that I have not thought about at great length and have not studied and did research about(if there was any material to be studied). Secondly, I do not merely repeat what I have heard other people say. I make up my own mind, and then write about my own personal opinions in my own words.

Also, there are many rules that are set into place by our leaders...NOT because they are spelled out in Scripture specifically, but because some of our elders feel they are practical and protection against sin. It isn't necessary to analyze them too deeply, because, quite frankly, they don't hurt anyone.

I feel that it is my obligation to obey those that have the rule over me. God did not include a clause to that stating that I should obey ONLY if I feel the rules are logical and ONLY if I feel they are necessary, and ONLY if I feel they line up with my way of thinking.

The fact is, in a church there is no possible way to please everyone...some want it stricter, some want it looser, some don't want any rules--so there are men who have discussed these things and placed rules in place that everyone can abide by and make up their own minds about the rest.

God did directly command us to obey those who have the rule over us "...for they watch for your souls...." To be disobedient or contentious in this matter is to directly disobey this commandment from God.

The only time, in my opinion, there is EVER cause to object to a rule is if it 1. Goes directly against a Biblical principle, 2. If it is something you cannot in good conscience abide by due to your own personal convictions, 3. It is detrimental to your personal relationships, i.e., marriage/family.

Since most rules[organizational rules] do not hurt us, since most rules bring order, since most rules protect us, since most rules bring unity, since most rules are scripturally based, and since most rules bring our flesh into submission to God, I see no reason to reject them. I see far greater danger in pushing away a guideline merely because I do not fully understand it. For that matter, there are things I don't understand about God--does that mean I would be justified in rejecting ANY of His commandments? And no, I am not equating a minister with God--I'm just saying, that obedience and submission to authority are good lessons to learn and practice, and they are good lessons to teach your children.

Furthermore, if you are attending an assembly where the pastor/leaders are harsh, overbearing, and motivated by their own agendas--why would one be attending such a place to begin with???!!! Put yourself under a leader you trust as a man/woman of God, and THEN commit to being obedient in all things--whether you agree or not.

There is a principle found in the Torah that goes something like this:
If you do something good, and you want to do it, you are blessed of God.
If you do something good, and you do not want to do it, you are more blessed of God.

I think, unfortunately, that many feel with the grace of God comes a license to do whatever they choose. That is simply not the case. The New Testament church was under the leadership and instruction of men of God who gave rules to the churches and instructions that they did not have "Scriptural" backing for...in fact, much of their instruction WAS culturally influenced and was for the protection of the saints. We should not attempt to take this God-granted privilege away from our leaders. The New Testament took away the need for going through a priest to get to God. It did not take away the commandments to be obedient to leaders.

Anna, most of us have heard the arguments against the hair cutting rules, the modest dress rules, the make up rules...in fact, I have probably heard or read material objecting to every rule we have to some extent. But the fact remains that God did directly command us to obey. Now, I don't understand how a person can get around that commandment.

Also, I think what our kind moderator is trying to say is, it is contentious and devisive to post so many controversial opinions that are just that--your opinions. You could, in doing so, cause someone to stumble, or cause someone to question their leaders when they should not be doing so. You could plant a seed of rebellion in someone who already doesn't want to obey and are looking for an excuse not to. Be careful what you advise others--it isn't just about stating your beliefs...it's also about not causing others to stumble...It isn't wrong to question something privately, but before you question openly, you'd do best to make sure you have all your ducks-in-a-row, as they say. Also, if you question a rule, it would be better to question it privately, of your own leader, and not to lead others to question something they may be better off simply obeying. You may merely intend a theological discussion, but you could in fact lead someone into rebellious behavior. Having questions is not a sin. Rebelling against leadership is. We don't want to cause anyone to rebel against their leadership.

Now, I'm sure you can go back and pick through my writing if you like, especially since I don't have the time this morning to clarify everything as well as I could--however, the underlying principle is still the same. Its about obedience and submission--not necessarily about a particular rule. There are many blessings to be found in simple obedience. I wouldn't want anyone else to miss out on those.

[SoldOut2Jesus]

We got into this conversation the other night, after a ladies conferance.

My pastor's wife says that it says in Proverbs that a hoary head is a women's glory. Hoary the way she defined it meant gray. In other Word, God loves for those of us that have gray hair to leave it that way. It pleases him. This is another area of submission to the will of God.

This one is a hard one I know, because I am much to young for all the gray that I have. Hair dye does seem most tempting. However, if gray hair is a glory to God, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine!!!

Of course studying the Word out for yourselves will help you come to a more valid conclusion. Study to show thyselves approved. It is also good to talk with your pastor and or pastor's wife, because they do keep watch over your souls.

Love in Christ,

SoldOut2Jesus

I'm an Indian and I have a black hair. I have seen many christian women with black hair have coloured their hair even in my church. Can we do so?

[Abigail4476]

I'm an Indian and I have a black hair. I have seen many christian women with black hair have coloured their hair even in my church. Can we do so?
People disagree on these matters, just like on make-up or gold belt buckles...the best thing to do is to ask your pastor for guidance and find out how your local assembly handles this matter.

Sidenote: There are things that I would allow myself to do, and things my pastor would even allow, but yet there are some within our assembly who would be offended by certain actions. To offend ANYone would be to reduce the effectiveness of my ministry within our assembly, so the offensive action must be avoided, even if it is not in and of itself, wrong.

[ddc101]

Okay again I say it again.I am keeping all the gray I get.I deserve to show some wisdom after all these years of getting wiser...or I think I have.
Anyway hair dye is clearly chemical and if you want to gamble with alzeheimers more power to you.My mom used to have a beauty shop and it was so wierd.The smells were sickening.Some of those things smelled like old rotten eggs.And the funny thing is when something did that the stylists all said...oh thats a good one.Go figure!
I am not into things that are highly toxic regardless of the results.My mom ended up with alzheimers.She dyed her hair for years.There are a myriad of blood vessels in your scalp.There is no way that those chemicals do not get absorbed through the skin and capillaries.Go and get a book on anatomy or read online about the anatomy of the circulatory system.Also many of those chemicals cross the blood/brain barrier.I am not going to compromise mentality for external temporary satisfaction.lv sis.c

[preachnsister]

DDC101,

I never knew there was a liink between hair dye and Alzheimers. That is definetly food for thought. Does that go for perms too? I used to color my hair but have not in a long time. I am trying to grow mine out and I am really amazed
at how long it is getting. Although it is not as long as I would like for it to be, it reaches about the middle of my back. I used to cut my bangs but now they are almost as long as the rest of my hair.

God bless.
Preachnsister
Cheri

[ddc101]

Hi Preachinsister,
Glad to see you back! There is a link between chemicals and hair dye.Also consider that we are what we eat and put on.People don't realize that their skin is an organ that absorbs and excretes.The head is one of the areas with a large amount of circulatory vessels thats why you bleed so much when you get a cut to the scalp.lv sis.c

[ddc101]

Hi Preachinsister,
Glad to see you back! There is a link between chemicals and hair dye.Also consider that we are what we eat and put on.People don't realize that their skin is an organ that absorbs and excretes.The head is one of the areas with a large amount of circulatory vessels thats why you bleed so much when you get a cut to the scalp.lv sis.c

check this out:
Study: Dyeing Your Hair May Cause Cancer
Talk With Doctor, Hair Care Professional

POSTED: 2:26 p.m. EDT October 25, 2001

CLEVELAND -- Many women choose to color their hair because they need a change or it makes them feel more attractive.



According to On Your Side Troubleshooter, a report released this year from the University of California School of Medicine says that too much hair dye could lead to bladder cancer. In this week's Betcha Didn't Know, Caswell reports that it may or may not be permanent hair dye that causes bladder cancer, so she talked to a local doctor to help put the study in perspective.

Still, for many women, hair color is one way to lift the spirits. A recent study said women who use permanent hair dye at least once a month for a year or longer may be twice as likely to develop bladder cancer.

"It is certainly possible that with exposure over a long period of time, as they said in the study, many many years that material can get into the body," said Dr. Mauri Markman of Cleveland Clinic.

Keeping chemicals out of the body is something many hair stylists were warned about in beauty school. "Always, always, always wear gloves to protect your skin. Be in a well-ventilated area," said Sandy Borrelli, Bella Capelli Salon.

Borrelli added that she has never read anything in any of her trade magazines about the study, but she thinks the ammonia in dyes may be to blame.

"We use very low ammonia color," she said. "The color we use is very low in ammonia."

Caswell says betcha didn't know that the hair color that you buy over-the-counter contains much more ammonia -- 18 to 22 percent.

Nevertheless, doctors said don't read too much into the study yet. It may just be a coincidence not like the association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.

Caswell adds that there was a large association with people who were hair dressers or barbers and the higher risk that the normal population of developing bladder cancer.

If you have concerns about hair coloring, discuss them with your doctor and hair care professional.

Some hairdressers think that highlights, which don't touch the scalp, are much less invasive than all around color.

[ddc101]

Personal Care and Cosmetic Products May be Carcinogenic

Sources:
IN THESE TIMES
Title: "To Die For" Date: February 17, 1997 Author: Joel Bleifuss
IN THESE TIMES
Title: "Take a Powder" Date: March 3, 1997 Author: Joel Bleifuss
Mainstream coverage: Chicago Tribune, July 29, 1997, Page 3, Zone C


Do you use toothpaste, shampoo, sunscreen, body lotion, body talc, makeup, hair dye? These are among the personal care products the American consumer has been led to believe are safe but that are often contaminated with carcinogenic byproducts, or that contain substances that regularly react to form potent carcinogens during storage and use.
Consumers regularly assume that these products are not harmful because they believe that they are approved for safety by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). But although the FDA classifies cosmetics (dividing them into 13 categories), it does not regulate them. An FDA document posted on the agency's World Wide Web home page explains that "a cosmetic manufacturer may use any ingredient or raw and market the final product without government approval." (This is with exception of seven known toxins, such as hexachlorophene, mercury compounds, and chloroform). Should the FDA deem a product a danger to public health, it has the power to pull a cosmetic product from the shelves, but in many of these cases the FDA has failed to do so, while evidence mounts that some of the most common cosmetic ingredients may double as deadly carcinogens.
Examples of products with potential carcinogens are: Clairol "Nice and Easy" hair color, which release carcinogenic formaldehyde as well as Cocamide DEA (a substance which can be contaminated with carcinogenic nitrosamines or react to produce a nitrosamine during storage or use); Vidal Sassoon shampoo (which like the hair dye, contains Cocamide DEA); Cover Girl makeup contains TEA (which is also associated with carcinogenic nitrosamines); Crest toothpaste which contains titanium dioxide, saccharin, and FD&C Blue#1(known carcinogens).
One of the cosmetic toxins that consumer advocates are most concerned about are nitrosamines, which contaminate a wide variety of cosmetic products. In the 1970s nitrosamine contamination of cooked bacon and other nitrite-treated meats became a public health issue, and the food industry, which is more strictly regulated than the cosmetic industry, has since drastically lowered the amount of nitrosamines found in these processed meats. But today nitrosamines contaminate cosmetics at significantly higher levels than were once contained in bacon.
The FDA has long known that nitrosamines in cosmetics pose a risk to public health. On April 10, 1979, FDA commissioner Donald Kennedy called on the cosmetic industry to "take immediate measures to eliminate, to the extent possible, NDELA (a potent nitrosamine) and any other N-nitrosamine from cosmetic products." Since that warning however, cosmetic manufacturers have done little to remove N-nitrosamine from their products, and the FDA has done even less to monitor them.
Individual FDA scientists are speaking out. The FDA's Donald Harvey and Hardy Chou proclaimed that the continued use of these ingredients contradict what should be a social goal: keeping "human exposure to N-nitrosamines to the lowest level technologically feasible, by reducing levels in all personal care products."
Student Researchers: Robin Stovall, Garvin Grundmann, and Erika Well
Faculty Evaluator: Debora Hammond, Ph.D.

[ddc101]

Mother of Two Dies After Using Hair Dye


Mrs Narinder Devi, a 39 year old who suffered from mild asthma, died of anaphylactic shock, an extreme form of an allergic reaction, shortly after using an oxidation (permanent) hair dye at her home in Birmingham, England last August.

The inquest, which was held on 8th May 2001, was told that Mrs Devi felt extremely hot and started to suffer breathing difficulties while she was applying the hair dye. She poured cold water onto her head in an attempt to cool it shortly before collapsing. Paramedics were called but they failed to reviver her. The jury considered the evidence for forty-five minutes before returning a verdict of misadventure.

The product Mrs Devi used to colour her hair black was Laboratoires Garnier Modiva. She selected this product because it was ammonia-free. When she had previously coloured her hair Mrs Devi experienced some irritation and assumed it was caused by the ammonia in that product. With hindsight we can assume that the irritation was caused by the colorants that are common to almost all brands and colours of hair dye.

The irritation Mrs Devi suffered was probably a symptom of sensitisation, the first stage in developing an allergic reaction. On this occasion some of the dyes probably penetrated her skin and her immune system mistook them for harmful organisms. She started to produce antibodies against these chemicals which stayed in her body, waiting to spring into action the next time she encountered these dyes. When the dyes were used again last August, her immune system started to react against them causing an allergic reaction. Allergic reactions can be of varying severity but in this tragic case it was extremely severe and resulted in anaphylactic shock - a rare but potentially fatal condition that requires emergency medical treatment.

For full details of sensitisation, allergic reactions and anaphylactic shock, and cosmetic ingredients that can cause these reactions, see Chapter 15 - Medical Matters in Cosmetics Unmasked.

So what were the offending chemicals that caused Mrs Devi's death, how dangerous are they and why are they allowed to be used in products that can be purchased by anybody?

Oxidation hair dyes contain a cocktail of chemicals and are available in a large variety of colours and tints. The number of coloured dyes available to the manufacturers, however, is limited so several different dyes are usually blended together to produce the required colour. Of these dyes the following are known to cause allergic reactions in some individuals:

2,4-Diaminophenol
m-Phenylenediamine (also called meta-Phenylenediamine or MPD)
p-Phenylenediamine (also called para-Phenylenediamine or PPD)
N-Phenyl-p-phenylenediamine (also called N-Phenyl para-phenylenediamine)
Toluene-2,5-diamine
Variations of these ingredients can also cause allergic reactions and these can be easily be identified. They have the same names as these five ingredients followed by HCl, Hydrochloride or Sulfate (e.g. Toluene-2,5-diamine sulfate).

Any hair dye sold in the European Union that contains any of these ingredients or their variations must carry the following mandatory warnings:

Can cause an allergic reaction. Do not use to colour eyelashes or eyebrows.


When supplied for professional use in a salon it must also warn that suitable gloves should be worn. The package should also advise you to carry out a patch test before using the product and it should give clear instructions on how this should be done. Essentially you should apply some of the whole product (not just the coloured part) to an area where your skin is thin, for example, on your upper arm or behind your ear. If there is any sign of redness, soreness, swelling or irritation during the next twenty-four hours, do not use the product. You should do this every time you colour your hair. Even if you have used the same hair dye twenty times before, it is still possible for the twenty-first application to cause sensitisation and if it does, the twenty-second time you use it you will suffer an allergic reaction of varying severity. Impractical as it sounds, you should also perform a patch test if you are having your hair coloured at the hairdressers (although we have never heard of a hairdresser offering this service).

Following Mrs Devi's death the inquest heard that Laboratoires Garnier Modiva only advised that the colorant part of the product should be tested whereas six other leading manufacturers of hair dyes recommended that the whole product (including all the component parts) should be tested in following the manufacturer's instructions. Christopher Ball, the Birmingham Deputy Coroner said that he would be suggesting to Laboratoires Garnier that they should consider following the other manufacturers advice concerning sensitivity tests.

So why are these chemicals allowed to be used in hair dyes?


The answer is that there are few alternatives and for some colours there are no alternatives. For example, p-pheneylenediamine is the only truly black compound that can be used in permanent hair dyes. The regulating authorities acknowledge the fact that there is a real social need for hair dyes and, providing the instructions are followed carefully, they consider the risks in using these potentially harmful ingredients are small and are outweighed by the benefits they bring to some people.

So how small are the risks?

There have been several reports of people suffering allergic reactions to the chemicals in oxidation hair dyes but in the last 20 years there have only been two deaths that have been directly linked to these products. When you consider that billions of hair dyes have been used at home and in salons during this time, the odds of suffering an allergic reaction are small and the chance of dying is minute. You are more likely to die in an aeroplane accident, or win the lottery jackpot, or be killed in a traffic accident on your way to the hairdresser's than you are to die as a result of using hair dyes.

Anaphylactic shock is a rare and life threatening extreme allergic reaction which can be triggered by almost anything. People have died from anaphylactic shock after insect stings, eating peanuts and even using rubber gloves. If hair dyes are banned, perhaps rubber gloves should be banned as well.

[ddc101]

Heres another one I found on a site.


Everything that touches your scalp is absorbed into your
brain first, so think twice before choosing to bleach, dye,
or perm your hair. Use natural alternatives, if you must.

Effects of these toxic chemicals include: illness, allergies,
asthma, ear infections, learning disabilities, nervous disorders,
respiratory difficulties and more. The American Cancer Society
stated "environmental pollution causes cancer, Alzheimer's,
Parkinson's, coughing, asthma, nervous disorders, emphysema,
wheezing, nasal congestion, burning eyes, headache, burning,
tingling, skin flushing, muscle aches, irritability, mental
confusion, unco-ordination, hyperactivity and other debilitating
illnesses."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

so I conclude that education is the key here.lv sis.c

[NanaRenan]

Also, there are many rules that are set into place by our leaders...NOT because they are spelled out in Scripture specifically, but because some of our elders feel they are practical and protection against sin. It isn't necessary to analyze them too deeply, because, quite frankly, they don't hurt anyone.
Ezekial 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them do discern between the unclean and the clean.

This implies to me that everything is not black or white (in the Scripture or not) some things need teaching and guidence to be able to discern.

[Renee]

Ladies, I don't know if this applies to your discussion here, but I wanted to talk to you about something. Some of you may remember a good while back that I talked about my hair falling out quite a bit. That was one of the reasons I cut my hair (stupidest thing I ever did). Well, I had some tests done to find out why. The thyroid and another test came back normal. The tests for Lupus and inflummation came back boarderline. I had to have some more indepth testing done because my aunt had Lupus and my Grandmother had Rhuematoid Arthritis. I was supposed to get the results this coming Monday, but my doctor's wife went into labor last week and he is taking two weeks off. I won't get my results until April 5. Please pray that everything will work out okay. Alright, back to your topic. God bless!!!

[ddc101]

Amen Sister Renee.We will be praying for you.lv sis.c

[Apostolic Kitty]

I was supposed to get the results this coming Monday, but my doctor's wife went into labor last week and he is taking two weeks off. I won't get my results until April 5.
I have to be honest here. I would call the Drs office Monday and DEMAND to get the results if they refused to give them to me at my first request. The Dr. may have taken off, but I am sure the office is not closing over it... unless maybe you live in an area where they do those sort of things.

[StellaGirl]

I never really understood or even thought about the dyeing of hair until I saw Ruth Reiders "Holiness" video.

She made a good point in there. The Bible says that the Lords hair is "white". Most people want to start dyeing their hair once that first gray comes about. You wonder why this is??? The devil HATES gray hair! He sees you looking MORE like the Lord. After all, we ARE made in his image;). Gray hair is something to be happy about as fas as I'm concerned. I started getting grays when I had my first child at 18. The gray has never really bothered me because it meant that people wouldnt view me as being 16.

About the cutting of hair...

The devil has his ways of making you very unhappy with the condition of your hair. MANY MANY times I have sat in boredom and start inspecting my hair to see the slit ends and the dried, freying parts. I thought to myself "ohhh how much prettier it would look if I just cut a little off."

Knowing how I would feel after I did it, I started praying for my hair:D. Eventually, it became softer and I barely notice the ends anymore. A lot of people tell me how beautiful my hair is and ask me what I do to it. I'm sure you can imagine their faces when I say I pray for it. Ha ha, at least it tells them that NO prayer is TOO petty for the Lord.

Sure, the devil sneaks his head in every once in a while and says "psst, your hair would grow faster if you cut those nasty ends off." ALL I have to do is laugh at him and tell him to GET BEHIND ME! My hair is the Lords and the Lord sees it as GLORY! If only people understood how much meaning uncut hair has.
But sad as it is, the modesty laws will always be something the people of the world take offense to and will come at us with full force for. Ever notice that their reason for calling us a "cult" is simply because of the way we choose to look? Makes ya wonder who's influencing them. Prayer is powerful people! Let's not let the "hair and dress" issue stand between us and a soul for Christ. No matter how we deal with it, this will be an ongoing discussion wherever we go. We need to make sure to tell people that the MOST important thing to do is get that relationship with the Lord first and then HE will work on the outside.

Love ya'll!

[ddc101]

I love my hair.It is black/white and below my waist.It is thick and almost unmanageable.I have a very mixed cultural heritage.When I let it out of its current do it acts like a puppy who has been indoors for a week....very wild.
But I still love it because Jesus gave it to me just as it is.
The key to nice hair is learning how to manage what you have and being thankful you have any at all.....that was incase men were reading....lv sis.c

[Renee]

I have to be honest here. I would call the Drs office Monday and DEMAND to get the results if they refused to give them to me at my first request. The Dr. may have taken off, but I am sure the office is not closing over it... unless maybe you live in an area where they do those sort of things.

I did call and leave a message with my doctor's nurse trying to see if someone could just call me with the results, but I haven't heard anything at all. I live in the 6th largest city in the U.S., we don't have the problem of things shutting down because of someone having a baby. My doctor has nurse practioners and other docs that fill in for him when he isn't there, but I don't trust them. I know they would just be reading the results, but we have had some really bad experiences with them in the past. The main problem with them is that they don't listen very well. I went in for hives because my throat felt like it was swelling up and the nurse practioner looked at my throat and said, "You don't have strep thoat". I didn't go in for that in any way shape or form. That same visit I had to get an EKG because I was going to have surgery, I had already had clearance from MY DOCTOR and she was trying to give me clearance. I was mainly there for my hives and she overlooked them for the most part. It is just not a situation I want to deal with. I like my doctor and he knows what things are wrong with me. We are there so much with JW, it is almost like family. :yeah: Anyway, let me get off my soap box here. Thanks for the prayers. I will let you know what happens.

BTW, StellaGirl you weren't around when I was talking about my cutting my hair. I was helping at my Grandfather's trinitarian church, while still holding my Apostolic beliefs. That is not an easy thing to do. I was having LOTS of problems with my hair and I had unGodly influences telling me to cut my hair. I loved my aunt with all my heart, but at the time she wasn't in church. She was convincing me that I needed to cut my hair. That along with the problems I was having, Satan just used it all to fool me. There were a lot of circumstances that helped in the decision making, but in the end it was my choice. I made the wrong one and I know it. God has forgiven me and I just go on from here. I just wanted to give you a little background info as to what we are talking about. God bless! :spin: :tup:

[Apostolic Kitty]

I did call and leave a message with my doctor's nurse trying to see if someone could just call me with the results, but I haven't heard anything at all. I live in the 6th largest city in the U.S., we don't have the problem of things shutting down because of someone having a baby. My doctor has nurse practioners and other docs that fill in for him when he isn't there, but I don't trust them. I know they would just be reading the results, but we have had some really bad experiences with them in the past. The main problem with them is that they don't listen very well. I went in for hives because my throat felt like it was swelling up and the nurse practioner looked at my throat and said, "You don't have strep thoat". I didn't go in for that in any way shape or form. That same visit I had to get an EKG because I was going to have surgery, I had already had clearance from MY DOCTOR and she was trying to give me clearance. I was mainly there for my hives and she overlooked them for the most part. It is just not a situation I want to deal with. I like my doctor and he knows what things are wrong with me. We are there so much with JW, it is almost like family. :yeah: Anyway, let me get off my soap box here. Thanks for the prayers. I will let you know what happens.
Ah! Well, considering your experiences with them, I don't blame you for wanting to wait till the doctor is back!

[Cherokee]

I was always taught that if you had to ask,"What's wrong with it."
Then evidently it was a point of controversy and that is what was wrong with it.

Very seldom have I ever heard the phrase, What's right with it?"

The scriptures talk about having power on you head because of the angels..
Does this mean good angels or bad angels?

Is that the first thing an angry spirit needing a home sees? A woman that has grown cool and left off prayer and that begins to look toward the world and find so many things wrong in the church or her pastor's teaching or with her family, that her first act of rebellion is to cut her hair? Just a trim?

The Word says a little leaven....leaveneth the whole lump.

Now I believe the old homosexual wicked spirit has been around since satan and it watches where and whom it might influence.

And it only needs the slightest provocation to latch on somewhere.

All of these issues are not new they have been in the church and society for years yet the men and women of God that they are directed at have fallen for the devils same old bag of tricks.

be sure slewfoot knows your fleshly weaknesses. as he sits around and studies you (us) all day.

When we fall totally in love with Jesus none of these things ring our bell.

When we are prayed up...powered up... and energized by fasting and prayer we have no controversy over issues.

We are just too busy as we are about the Father's business and are content to stay with in His guidelines because we don't want to take a chance on erring in any way.

Some of us run all the yellow lights and many of the red ones and then we find ourselves in the middle of spiritual dilemma and trials of our own making.

Now just some of my thoughts and I have to go to work but will come back again.

Remember Love Ya' in Jesus!!!!....Cherokee

[Apostolic Kitty]

Is that the first thing an angry spirit needing a home sees? A woman that has grown cool and left off prayer and that begins to look toward the world and find so many things wrong in the church or her pastor's teaching or with her family, that her first act of rebellion is to cut her hair? Just a trim?
You know what's interesting.... Y'all probably already know that I don't agree with the no cutting or trimming doctrine at all. I get my hair trimmed fairly regularly and have bangs. In fact, my hair is much like it is in my avatar. LOL

My husband prefers it this way. ....but as I was telling someone the other day... if I got my hair cut the way I want, it would be to the middle of my shoulderblades and layered -- not almost to my waist the way it is. I keep it the way I do for my husband. So, I actually agree to a certain degree about the principle that cutting the hair can be rebellion -- even for me.

[Anna~]

I love my hair color, It's black with sliver throughout it. I've been asked by many stranger if I had it done, or please don't take this wrong but your gray hair is beautiful. I'm 40 and I'm very light skin, so this new look has me not look so washed out. My husband loves it, says it brings out my green eyes even more. So far my eyebrows are still very black. I’m Jewish/ Portugese

[striving2bgodly]

YOU GO, GIRL!!!! I'm behind ya, 100%.

I was always taught that if you had to ask,"What's wrong with it."
Then evidently it was a point of controversy and that is what was wrong with it.

Very seldom have I ever heard the phrase, What's right with it?"

The scriptures talk about having power on you head because of the angels..
Does this mean good angels or bad angels?

Is that the first thing an angry spirit needing a home sees? A woman that has grown cool and left off prayer and that begins to look toward the world and find so many things wrong in the church or her pastor's teaching or with her family, that her first act of rebellion is to cut her hair? Just a trim?

The Word says a little leaven....leaveneth the whole lump.

Now I believe the old homosexual wicked spirit has been around since satan and it watches where and whom it might influence.

And it only needs the slightest provocation to latch on somewhere.

All of these issues are not new they have been in the church and society for years yet the men and women of God that they are directed at have fallen for the devils same old bag of tricks.

be sure slewfoot knows your fleshly weaknesses. as he sits around and studies you (us) all day.

When we fall totally in love with Jesus none of these things ring our bell.

When we are prayed up...powered up... and energized by fasting and prayer we have no controversy over issues.

We are just too busy as we are about the Father's business and are content to stay with in His guidelines because we don't want to take a chance on erring in any way.

Some of us run all the yellow lights and many of the red ones and then we find ourselves in the middle of spiritual dilemma and trials of our own making.

Now just some of my thoughts and I have to go to work but will come back again.

Remember Love Ya' in Jesus!!!!....Cherokee

[NanaRenan]

When we fall totally in love with Jesus none of these things ring our bell.

When we are prayed up...powered up... and energized by fasting and prayer we have no controversy over issues.

We are just too busy as we are about the Father's business and are content to stay with in His guidelines because we don't want to take a chance on erring in any way.

Some of us run all the yellow lights and many of the red ones and then we find ourselves in the middle of spiritual dilemma and trials of our own making.

Bless you, Cherokee!! I agreed with EVERYTHING you said. And I especially like the "ring our bell" remark. You nailed that so succinctly!!! That's exactly how I will describe it from now on....It just doesn't "ring my bell". PERIOD

Thank you, Jesus!!:banana:

Oh...

My husband would LOVE your "traffic" analogy -- my kids will testify he's quite fond of those himself....I can't wait you share yours with him! :cool:

[Just Me]

Hair removal in the Bible! What does Scriptures teach?

1. Numbers 6:9,18-19 show God's instructions for a man or woman to shave their head. This applied to those who had taken the vow of a Nazarite.

2. Leviticus 13:33 covers God's instructions for partly shaving the head of a man or woman when checking for leprosy.

3. Leviticus 14:8-9 again gives God's instructions for shaving off all the hair of a leper (man or woman) in their cleansing.

4. Deuteronomy 21:12 tells God's instructions for a woman to shave her head when an Israelite wanted to marry her after she was taken captive by them in war against their enemies. In the book quoted above, it is stated that "the ancient Israelites considered the shaving of a woman's head humbling to her (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)." This same idea is expressed later in the book. A study of these Scriptures and how the word 'humbled' is used in other verses will show that the woman was 'humbled' because the man had sexual relations with her and the fact that her hair was shaved had nothing to do with this so called "process of humiliation." If this reasoning is to be followed, then it would also be humbling to pare your nails, etc. *snipped*

If one quotes another's work, one should make it clear that they did not author it themselves. It appears this and other posts were taken from elsewhere.

[Anna~]

If one quotes another's work, one should make it clear that they did not author it themselves. It appears this and other posts were taken from elsewhere.
Likewise then, when one repeats traditions of men taught by the church that have no Biblical backing, one should make it clear that they did not authorize it themselves. Nor will I apologize for speaking Biblical truth, nor will I apologize for using other sources. Sorry, but I make no apologies for speaking Biblical truth. My sheep die daily due to lack of knowledge

[Just Me]

Likewise then, when one repeats traditions of men taught by the church that have no Biblical backing, one should make it clear that they did not authorize it themselves. Nor will I apologize for speaking Biblical truth, nor will I apologize for using other sources. Sorry, but I make no apologies for speaking Biblical truth. My sheep die daily due to lack of knowledge

Woooaaaahh there Anna! You surely read much into the two sentences I wrote. I did not address traditions or teachings or what you shared. There was no putting down of yourself.

It is simple etiquitte (sp) to mention when you are quoting word for word someone else's work. The things you posted appeared to be the writings of other people. When you paste them in a post without stating they are not your work, they appear to others to be your work. That is all I am saying.

I didn't ask you to apologize for a thing!

[lellingsworth]

I never really understood or even thought about the dyeing of hair until I saw Ruth Reiders "Holiness" video.

She made a good point in there. The Bible says that the Lords hair is "white". Most people want to start dyeing their hair once that first gray comes about. You wonder why this is??? The devil HATES gray hair! He sees you looking MORE like the Lord. After all, we ARE made in his image;). Gray hair is something to be happy about as fas as I'm concerned. I started getting grays when I had my first child at 18. The gray has never really bothered me because it meant that people wouldnt view me as being 16.

About the cutting of hair...

The devil has his ways of making you very unhappy with the condition of your hair. MANY MANY times I have sat in boredom and start inspecting my hair to see the slit ends and the dried, freying parts. I thought to myself "ohhh how much prettier it would look if I just cut a little off."

Knowing how I would feel after I did it, I started praying for my hair:D. Eventually, it became softer and I barely notice the ends anymore. A lot of people tell me how beautiful my hair is and ask me what I do to it. I'm sure you can imagine their faces when I say I pray for it. Ha ha, at least it tells them that NO prayer is TOO petty for the Lord.

Sure, the devil sneaks his head in every once in a while and says "psst, your hair would grow faster if you cut those nasty ends off." ALL I have to do is laugh at him and tell him to GET BEHIND ME! My hair is the Lords and the Lord sees it as GLORY! If only people understood how much meaning uncut hair has.
But sad as it is, the modesty laws will always be something the people of the world take offense to and will come at us with full force for. Ever notice that their reason for calling us a "cult" is simply because of the way we choose to look? Makes ya wonder who's influencing them. Prayer is powerful people! Let's not let the "hair and dress" issue stand between us and a soul for Christ. No matter how we deal with it, this will be an ongoing discussion wherever we go. We need to make sure to tell people that the MOST important thing to do is get that relationship with the Lord first and then HE will work on the outside.

Love ya'll!

Stella Girl- It doesn't take prayer, all it takes is your pastor pulling up beside you at a stoplight in a town of 500,000 people when you have the scissors in your hand trimming those darn things off. :yeah:

[ddc101]

Sister Lani that is called conviction.lv sis.c

[Victoryitsmine1]

I am very curious to hear what others have to say or answer they have to give to my question.


In response to your question, I have always been told that no matter how short or long your hair is. As long as it is uncut. it is long. I have one child whos hair does not grow hardly at all, however biblically it is long, as it has never been cut. We have a sister in our church in texas, she has epilepsy and the meds she has been on all of her life keep her hair from growing, her hair is not even touching her shoulders, but in Gods eyes it is long as someone who has hair to the floor! Someone can have hair too the floor but if they cut their bangs. they are biblically bald is how I see it

God bless
Sis T

[Truthseeker]

In response to your question, I have always been told that no matter how short or long your hair is. As long as it is uncut. it is long. I have one child whos hair does not grow hardly at all, however biblically it is long, as it has never been cut. We have a sister in our church in texas, she has epilepsy and the meds she has been on all of her life keep her hair from growing, her hair is not even touching her shoulders, but in Gods eyes it is long as someone who has hair to the floor! Someone can have hair too the floor but if they cut their bangs. they are biblically bald is how I see it

God bless
Sis T

Hair to floor would still be long, cut or not.

Using same principle in you post a man could have hair to floor and would consider short as long as he cuts it.

If cut hair always means same as short for a women then the same would apply towards men.

[NanaRenan]

Hair to floor would still be long, cut or not.

Using same principle in you post a man could have hair to floor and would consider short as long as he cuts it.

If cut hair always means same as short for a women then the same would apply towards men.
The "principle" is submission.

As a woman, my submission is outwardly demonstrated by my uncut hair, so I not only keep scissors out of it, I am careful how I wash, brush, roll and otherwise care for it to preserve it.

If I were a man -- and my submission was outwardly demonstrated by keeping it short, I would cut it short and cut it often....I'd probably have a buzz-cut and visit the barber weekly.

[Truthseeker]

The "principle" is submission.

As a woman, my submission is outwardly demonstrated by my uncut hair, so I not only keep scissors out of it, I am careful how I wash, brush, roll and otherwise care for it to preserve it.

If I were a man -- and my submission was outwardly demonstrated by keeping it short, I would cut it short and cut it often....I'd probably have a buzz-cut and visit the barber weekly.

I'm all for submission. Sometimes we have perceived submission which is really not submission to God but what one perceives to be.

I think the uncut hair doctrine is one of the most twisted, adding and subtracting things being taught.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

I don't get it. It seems crystal clear.

Women should keep hair long.

If "long" is defined as "uncut", this is a clear simple line for everyone, and allows EVERY woman to have "long" hair.

If "long" has any other definition whatsoever, then it opens up a whole debate as to how "long" is "long". There would be the 15-inchers camp, the 12-inchers camp, and for those whose hair is short by genetics, the 5-inchers camp, the 4-inchers camp- etc, etc, to infinity. The Bible makes no definition whatsoever as to how many inches is "long", and it sounds very out of character for the Bible to let US decide "how many inches is 'long'".

The only logical conclusion is that "long" is defined as "uncut". I really, really can't understand why this isn't clear to everyone.

*:) to show no hard feelings*

[Truthseeker]

I don't get it. It seems crystal clear.

Women should keep hair long.

If "long" is defined as "uncut", this is a clear simple line for everyone, and allows EVERY woman to have "long" hair.

If "long" has any other definition whatsoever, then it opens up a whole debate as to how "long" is "long". There would be the 15-inchers camp, the 12-inchers camp, and for those whose hair is short by genetics, the 5-inchers camp, the 4-inchers camp- etc, etc, to infinity. The Bible makes no definition whatsoever as to how many inches is "long", and it sounds very out of character for the Bible to let US decide "how many inches is 'long'".

The only logical conclusion is that "long" is defined as "uncut". I really, really can't understand why this isn't clear to everyone.

*:) to show no hard feelings*


I just can't get it. :p Why can't the uncut group see their using two different meanings for long. They say Long for women is uncut and if she cuts it, it's the same as shorn or short. If that is the case then the men could have hair to their Gluteaus and as long as they cut it would be consider short because long means uncut.

Were not looking for logic, but scriptural understanding. I just don't see how they get long means uncut.


Of course, it's not sin to have uncut hair, but let's not make it more then it is, uncut hair.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

:) But I just said it- Long means uncut, because any other alternative leads to silliness.

[Truthseeker]

:) But I just said it- Long means uncut, because any other alternative leads to silliness.

What would be silliness is going to a lumbar yard and ask for a long board, when they ask how long, you say one that is uncut. :yeah:

Where do you get long means uncut? Source please.

Plus, if long means uncut then a man could have hair to his shoulders and wouldn't be considered long, right?

[Jillian]

There is a road that leads off this mountain. :wah:
Blessed be those that find it..... :yeah:



















I couldn't help myself........ :spin:

[Abigail4476]

:) But I just said it- Long means uncut, because any other alternative leads to silliness.
I think you are misunderstanding the question. Its kind of like algebra...if a=b and b=c, then a=c...right?

If long=uncut, then short=cut? The exact same reference says that it is a shame if men have LONG hair (by your definition that means "uncut")--so, if we apply it to the verse it reads,

"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have uncut hair, it is a shame unto him?"

So, if a woman simply has long hair by not cutting it, then by the same logic does a man have short hair simply by cutting it? (irrelevent of length?)

The question concerns the logic in your explanation.

[Truthseeker]

I think you are misunderstanding the question. Its kind of like algebra...if a=b and b=c, then a=c...right?

If long=uncut, then short=cut? The exact same reference says that it is a shame if men have LONG hair (by your definition that means "uncut")--so, if we apply it to the verse it reads,

"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have uncut hair, it is a shame unto him?"

So, if a woman simply has long hair by not cutting it, then by the same logic does a man have short hair simply by cutting it? (irrelevent of length?)

The question concerns the logic in your explanation.

Bingo! :tup:

[ddc101]

Bingo! :tup:


Do not turn this thread into a standards thread I am warning.We have thus far been able to have many posts here and in peace.lv sis.c

[lellingsworth]

Sister Lani that is called conviction.lv sis.c

Well, it worked................ :)

[ddc101]

So Sister Lani,
Whats the newest hairstyle? lv sis.c

[NanaRenan]

What would be silliness is going to a lumbar yard and ask for a long board, when they ask how long, you say one that is uncut. :yeah:

Where do you get long means uncut? Source please.

Plus, if long means uncut then a man could have hair to his shoulders and wouldn't be considered long, right?
I don't have any trouble seeing the difference in the scriptures, but here is the handiest source I could grab....

"....we need to have an understanding of what Paul is actually saying in the Greek language. We find our answer in the two words that Paul used concerning hair.

The first word is komao, a verb. Komao is translated "to have long hair" in i Corinthians 11:114-15. According to Gingrich's Lexicon, the word is defined as "wear long hair, to let one's hair grow long." Thayer's Lexicon has the same essential meaning. It says, "let the hair grow, have long hair." If you trim or cut your hair to keep it at a certain length, you are not letting it grow. It is impossible to grow your hair and yet cut it at the same time.

The second word is kome, a noun. The use of the word kome also gives us a clear indication as to what Paul meant when he wrote this passage. This is the word that is translated "hair" in verse 15 where it says "for her hair (or her 'kome') is given to her for a covering." Two reference works in particular, Bauer's Lexicon and Moulton and Milligan's Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament both attest to the fact that "kome" demands the meaning of uncut hair. t is used to describe uncut hair in Greek literature, and it describes the Nazarites who were commanded not to cut their hair.

..."

except from Power Before The Throne by Ruth Rieder

[NanaRenan]

Do not turn this thread into a standards thread I am warning.We have thus far been able to have many posts here and in peace.lv sis.c
Please note that my providing a source to Truthseeker's request was done in peace and love.

:angel:

[ddc101]

Please note that my providing a source to Truthseeker's request was done in peace and love.

:angel:

No offense sister.You generally post correctly.I just don't want the only hair thread to get erased because it causes disunity.lv sis.c

[Abigail4476]

Do not turn this thread into a standards thread I am warning.We have thus far been able to have many posts here and in peace.lv sis.c
Here is my first post:

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

the bible says it is a glory to her.

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

1391 doxa (dox'-ah);

from the base of 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):

KJV-- dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
*confused*

I know this isn't [supposed to be] a "standards" thread, but this is something that is specifically relevant to women, which is why [I assume] that it is in the General Ladies Discussion. I don't see how my post has wavered from this topic. But it looks to me like it was a "standards" thread from the very beginning. (based on the content of your first post above)

:confused:

[lellingsworth]

So Sister Lani,
Whats the newest hairstyle? lv sis.c

Well, since I can't do the "up and curls all over" thing. I have been wearing this. Pull your hair back on the top half with a clear rubber band, leaving half of it down like you are just trying to get it out of your face. (Above the ears and up.) Then, pull it up and turn your head upside down at the same time and clip it with a barrette on the top of the middle of your head. This makes a poof and also lets it fall full around your face. I curl it or not and pull out some tendrils on the side. The other thing is you can also take the part that is to take the top part and pull it to the back to the middle of your head and secure it. It creates a "half shell" on the top of your head so it looks like a princess hair do. I like it. I am trying to stay away from those hot sticks. They burn my hair. I am trying to figure out how the girls wear their hair down and all curly with a poof in back. It isn't hot sticks maybe hot rollers. But my hair is so wavy that it doesn't do the hard curled look with either. I have also been doing the hairstyle that the other sister said about the pony tail on top and just curling a few strands and twirling the rest around. That takes just a few minutes to do.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

I always liked the one where you put a french roll in the back, and with the leftover 6 inches or so at the end sticking out, make 3-5 pin curls near the top with bobby pins. I don't use hairspray so this works well for me. Only thing is, I got a compliment on it one day from this guy who said his wife used to wear it just like that- he was in his 60's, or older- :huh: :laugh: Oh well, I still wear it sometimes. I wish I could have been born in an earlier time anyways. (read what I wrote in the techno-phobe thread!! :) )

[NanaRenan]

No offense sister.You generally post correctly.I just don't want the only hair thread to get erased because it causes disunity.lv sis.c
Yikes!..."Generally"....does that mean I've erred in some fashion? Please feel free to correct me -- at large or in PM when you see that, okay??

[SisEdith]

I don't get it. It seems crystal clear.

Women should keep hair long.

If "long" is defined as "uncut", this is a clear simple line for everyone, and allows EVERY woman to have "long" hair.

If "long" has any other definition whatsoever, then it opens up a whole debate as to how "long" is "long". There would be the 15-inchers camp, the 12-inchers camp, and for those whose hair is short by genetics, the 5-inchers camp, the 4-inchers camp- etc, etc, to infinity. The Bible makes no definition whatsoever as to how many inches is "long", and it sounds very out of character for the Bible to let US decide "how many inches is 'long'".

The only logical conclusion is that "long" is defined as "uncut". I really, really can't understand why this isn't clear to everyone.

*:) to show no hard feelings*
hint**** the uncut part comes from the verses which state shorn or shaven.

[preachnsister]

But how can shorn or shaven mean uncut :confused: ? If I shaved off the hair of my head then I would have no hair. I would be bald. But if I simply cut an inch off of my hair then my hair will still be long.


God bless.
Preachnsister
Cheri

[Truthseeker]

Shorn and shaven doesn't mean cut, they are type of cuts. It's shame for a women to have shorn hair.

Anyone ever notice it speaks of a head that is shorn or shaven not hair. Why? Types of cuts.

[survivor4christ]

I have stayed away from this thread in that I know a lot of different opinions ride on this one...

I just got a perm in my hair for the first time in four years. I haven't cut my hair in about the same amount of time either. I do believe that their is power on the head of a woman who will not cut her hair. Not that the Lord does not hear the prayers of those who do...It is just my belief and conviction that those who choose to not cut their hair have more 'powerful' prayers than other women.

I know I may get a lot of flack for that, but I have seen it. I have prayed with those who cut their hair and those who do not. It seemed a special anointing lies on the head of a woman who doesn't cut her hair.

For black women, generally speaking our hair does not grow past our shoulders, I think as long as the hair is not cut it is fine. I also do not see a problem with black women having extensions-as long as their hair underneath is not cut, it is fine. The Word of God does not specify if extensions are ungodly! ;)

But being a black woman who has worn extensions/weaves for years I can say this much...black women have to be careful that we do not become vain with the weaves. What do I mean? I mean a lot of times, I struggled with this, too...I would get a weave and act like a totally different woman. And depending upon the weave style, a woman has to be careful with this, too. If you get a weave where the hair covers one side of the face, or is in some way seductive or provocative, then you have to pin it up so as to not tempt the brothers. I had to stop going to some hairdressers b/c they would want to and almost insist on putting weaves in my hair that were provocative and seductive. They were just so into the total makeover thing with me, said I was too young to wear this or that style and I need to try something different. Didn't understand my stand for modesty. I have concluded that the 'weave world' has gotten a little too strange for me. There is no such thing as a simple weave anymore. So I am going to try to wear my own hair permed and uncut. We will see what happens.

Am I rambling??? :)

Love,
Sis. Wenona

[preachnsister]

I am sorry Survivor, why can't you read my post? It shows up fine on my computer.


Also I don't understand why you feel that a woman with uncut hair prays more powerful prayers. James tells us that it is the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man (or woman) that availeth much. There is so much that is more important than the length of my hair or wether I cut it or not. What if I have never cut my hair but I have a spirit of pride, or maybe jealousy? It would seem to me that the condition of ones heart would be more important than the condition of ones hair.


God bless.
Preachnsister
Cheri

[SisEdith]

But how can shorn or shaven mean uncut :confused: ? If I shaved off the hair of my head then I would have no hair. I would be bald. But if I simply cut an inch off of my hair then my hair will still be long.


God bless.
Preachnsister
Cheri

Because it says that if you cut it you may as well shave it all off, and if you did either shave or shorn it is a shame.

1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, (with her hair, because her hair is her covering) let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

[SisEdith]

I am sorry Survivor, why can't you read my post? It shows up fine on my computer.


Also I don't understand why you feel that a woman with uncut hair prays more powerful prayers. James tells us that it is the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man (or woman) that availeth much. There is so much that is more important than the length of my hair or wether I cut it or not. What if I have never cut my hair but I have a spirit of pride, or maybe jealousy? It would seem to me that the condition of ones heart would be more important than the condition of ones hair.


God bless.
Preachnsister
Cheri

It's all about submission.

[SisEdith]

I have stayed away from this thread in that I know a lot of different opinions ride on this one...

I just got a perm in my hair for the first time in four years. I haven't cut my hair in about the same amount of time either. I do believe that their is power on the head of a woman who will not cut her hair. Not that the Lord does not hear the prayers of those who do...It is just my belief and conviction that those who choose to not cut their hair have more 'powerful' prayers than other women.

I know I may get a lot of flack for that, but I have seen it. I have prayed with those who cut their hair and those who do not. It seemed a special anointing lies on the head of a woman who doesn't cut her hair.

For black women, generally speaking our hair does not grow past our shoulders, I think as long as the hair is not cut it is fine. I also do not see a problem with black women having extensions-as long as their hair underneath is not cut, it is fine. The Word of God does not specify if extensions are ungodly! ;)

But being a black woman who has worn extensions/weaves for years I can say this much...black women have to be careful that we do not become vain with the weaves. What do I mean? I mean a lot of times, I struggled with this, too...I would get a weave and act like a totally different woman. And depending upon the weave style, a woman has to be careful with this, too. If you get a weave where the hair covers one side of the face, or is in some way seductive or provocative, then you have to pin it up so as to not tempt the brothers. I had to stop going to some hairdressers b/c they would want to and almost insist on putting weaves in my hair that were provocative and seductive. They were just so into the total makeover thing with me, said I was too young to wear this or that style and I need to try something different. Didn't understand my stand for modesty. I have concluded that the 'weave world' has gotten a little too strange for me. There is no such thing as a simple weave anymore. So I am going to try to wear my own hair permed and uncut. We will see what happens.

Am I rambling??? :)

Love,
Sis. Wenona
There is an anointing on a woman with uncut hair...without a doubt. It's all about submission and obedience.

[SisEdith]

Shorn and shaven doesn't mean cut, they are type of cuts. It's shame for a women to have shorn hair.

Anyone ever notice it speaks of a head that is shorn or shaven not hair. Why? Types of cuts.
do you realize you contradicted yourself?

[Truthseeker]

Because it says that if you cut it you may as well shave it all off, and if you did either shave or shorn it is a shame.

1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, (with her hair, because her hair is her covering) let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

How do you get "be not covered" means cut?

[Truthseeker]

do you realize you contradicted yourself?

How is that?

[SisEdith]

How do you get "be not covered" means cut?
shorn means cut. The covering is her hair. She can not cut her covering. If she does it's as shameful as shaving it all off.

[SisEdith]

Shorn and shaven doesn't mean cut, they are type of cuts. It's shame for a women to have shorn hair.

Anyone ever notice it speaks of a head that is shorn or shaven not hair. Why? Types of cuts.
Shorn means shear...shear is to cut.

[Kingskidtoo]

Question? Why do most Apostolic churches teach against coloring your hair, but have no problem with perming your hair. They are both chemicals in your hair and are for reasons of vaniety wether we like to admit it or not. I don't do either, I wouldn't say it's a conviction as much as a personal prefrence. I DO NOT CUT MY HAIR, that is a conviction and that is the word of God, but the coloring and perming I'm not real clear on. If you can help me from a biblical out of the WORD answer, I'm all ears.

God Bless,
Sis Jo

[Truthseeker]

shorn means cut. The covering is her hair. She can not cut her covering. If she does it's as shameful as shaving it all off.

Not true. Shorn means the shear which is a type of cut, kinda like crew cut is a type of cut.

Here are the places the word shorn is used:


Song 4:2
Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.


Sheep that are shorn, type of cut.

Acts 18:18
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.


"having shorn his HEAD" You see, you don't shorn hair, you shorn heads.
.

keiro, Greek 2751, Strong’s
keiro, ki'-ro; a primary verb; to shear :- shear (-er).

When one was under a vow they would shorn/shear there head like a sheep would be sheared.




1 Cor. 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

The covering in this scripture is speaking of a veil, so he was saying no veil is the same as if women is shorn.

1 Cor. 11:6 NASB
For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.

1 Cor. 11:6 ASV
For if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it is a shame to a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.




The word covered means
katakalupto, Greek 2619, Strong’s
katakalupto, kat-ak-al-oop'-to; from Greek 2596 (kata) and Greek 2572 (kalupto); to cover wholly, i.e. veil :- cover, hide.




Paul is just making a comparison between a natural veil and hair. How just as it is comely and accepted for women to have long hair, she is to be covered while in prayer or prophesying.

[Truthseeker]

Shorn means shear...shear is to cut.


NO, you have to cut to shear. Just like shave doesn't mean cut, but you have to cut to shave. Sounds like a play on words, but it's a big difference.

It's speaking of a types of cut. When I was in the army they sheared by HEAD, my head was shorn.

Do you believe shave means cut?

[SisEdith]

Not true. Shorn means the shear which is a type of cut, kinda like crew cut is a type of cut.

Here are the places the word shorn is used:


Song 4:2
Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.


Sheep that are shorn, type of cut.

Acts 18:18
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.


"having shorn his HEAD" You see, you don't shorn hair, you shorn heads.
.

keiro, Greek 2751, Strong’s
keiro, ki'-ro; a primary verb; to shear :- shear (-er).

When one was under a vow they would shorn/shear there head like a sheep would be sheared.




1 Cor. 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

The covering in this scripture is speaking of a veil, so he was saying no veil is the same as if women is shorn.

1 Cor. 11:6 NASB
For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.

1 Cor. 11:6 ASV
For if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it is a shame to a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.




The word covered means
katakalupto, Greek 2619, Strong’s
katakalupto, kat-ak-al-oop'-to; from Greek 2596 (kata) and Greek 2572 (kalupto); to cover wholly, i.e. veil :- cover, hide.




Paul is just making a comparison between a natural veil and hair. How just as it is comely and accepted for women to have long hair, she is to be covered while in prayer or prophesying.

1 Corinthians 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Brother it is very plain that her hair is her covering as the scripture teaches us. Shorn is to cut no maatter how you look at it.

[Truthseeker]

1 Corinthians 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Brother it is very plain that her hair is her covering as the scripture teaches us. Shorn is to cut no maatter how you look at it.


Strongs nor biblical uses of the word don't seem to support you definition of the word.

BTW It doesn't say "her covering" or "the covering" but "a covering"


once again Paul was speaking of a natural covering and comparing it to hair.

Man is not to have is head covered(veiled) compared to his hair in that he is to have short hair because long hair is a shame to a man,

No veil for the man compared to having short hair.

Vice versa with women.

They are to be covered(veiled) which is compared to women having long hair.

Covered(veiled) for the woman compared to having long hair.

[Truthseeker]

1 Cor. 11:4
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.


Now, how does a man pray with his head covered? And if this speaking of hair why does it mention during prayer of prophesying only?

Some will say it's speaking of having long hair. Going by others definition of long hair, which they say means uncut hair, a man could have hair to is coccyx and cut it and he wouldn't have long hair since long hair supposely means uncut hair.

So can a man pray with hair to his knee but cut it without dishonouring his head? I think not.


Why does the defintion of long hair change for the genders? wouldn't long hair be the same for both.

[foreverblessed]

Shorn as used in 1 Cor 11

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 2751 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
keivrw a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Keiro None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ki'-ro Verb

Definition
to sheer: a sheep
to get or let be shorn
of shearing or cutting short the hair of the head


King James Word Usage - Total: 4
shear 3, shearer

Every time the word shorn was used in the bible, it was used in showing that ALL of the hair was cut off, or close to the head.

[ddc101]

Just a warning.I love this thread.It has been one of the most productive in the ladies area.We have remained civil.Some have come and stated their judgemental positions.Lets just keep it going in a civil manner.So far so good.I do see the tendancy for a standards discussion.Take that to the Standards thread please.I love you all.lv sis.c

[Truthseeker]

Just a warning.I love this thread.It has been one of the most productive in the ladies area.We have remained civil.Some have come and stated their judgemental positions.Lets just keep it going in a civil manner.So far so good.I do see the tendancy for a standards discussion.Take that to the Standards thread please.I love you all.lv sis.c


AAH, maybe I need to bow out since this is a ladies area? :shrug:

[Kingskidtoo]

Has anyone found and answer for my question earlier about perming and coloring???

[ddc101]

You can stay Rob but its mostly a thread about hair care etc.I doubt you could share anything...lol...lv sis.c

[survivor4christ]

Sis. Sheri:

I don't know, the font was white and my background for posts is white. But once I believe it was ActsAlive replied to that post, I was able to read it just fine there.

Like I said in my post, it is a personal conviction of mine. I in no way mean to imply that the prayers of women who do choose to cut their hair are of lesser quality than those who do not. You are right, the effectual fervent prayer of the righteous does avail much, and we are to make sure that our hearts are right before praying. God hears the prayers of a sinner. But in terms of warfare and intercession, how much power does those same prayers hold? When it comes to praying like that, power is needed. And a woman who obeys God in this matter, even if she does not understand it, is specially anointed by God to travail.

Based upon the scipture about power being on the woman's head b/c of uncut hair and my experience, I cannot help but notice that there is a special anointing on a woman who has not cut her hair.

Bro. Rob....r u 'splitting hairs' again, Bro-Ham??? :cool: :laugh: :banana:
(Pun intended!) :bow:

Love
Sis. Wenona

[florahall]

I would like to say hello to everybody. I am back to GNC. Please include me in your prayers. I am still fighting with the devil untill now. It is more than one year now and the devil will not leave me alone. I am Glad that i have Jesus and i have the holy ghost. I was able to survive untill now. I was fighthing with both personal and spiritual war in my life. Please include me in all your prayers. My son is in the captivity of the devil. I did lost my custody of my son and the judge give the custody to my husband . I will post the whole story of my trial fighthing for the devil and the system. We ladies need to know that we can lost everything because of the lies of the other person. I would like to share the horrible experience that I have in the court system and the most horrible experience that i have with the devil. It is very scarry when you trust a person because he is a christian but the truth he is a satan. I did not know how I survive, but for sure, I know God was with me all this time that i am on my trials in life. Please pray for my son. my ex=husband, to open his eyes that he is hurting his own son and himself. He fall on to the trap of Judas and I am sure that both of them will fall and will never rise up again if they keep on living on wickedness and decieving people.
My son is 5 years old and will easily be influence of evilness because of what he see in his sorounding. I pray that my son will be back to me and God will take him out of the place where he is now suffering for loneliness to be with his mother. My pain that I am suffering right now being away from my son because of the wickedness of his dad is nothing to compare. The pain of Jesus when he was crucified is the same pain that I feel right now that my ex-husband did to me and my son. Please pray for me.

Sister Flora

[survivor4christ]

Question? Why do most Apostolic churches teach against coloring your hair, but have no problem with perming your hair. They are both chemicals in your hair and are for reasons of vaniety wether we like to admit it or not. I don't do either, I wouldn't say it's a conviction as much as a personal prefrence. I DO NOT CUT MY HAIR, that is a conviction and that is the word of God, but the coloring and perming I'm not real clear on. If you can help me from a biblical out of the WORD answer, I'm all ears.

God Bless,
Sis Jo

Wow, I didn't realize most apostolic churches teach against chemicals in the hair. But as a black woman, I can tell you that the reason we get perms is so that we can comb it. If we do not perm our hair, depending upon how thick one's hair is, it is very, very difficult to comb out and manage. My hair was so bad, the hairdresser would beg me to get a perm b/c she felt like she was hurting me by combing out my hair. :) There is a joke about little (black) girls being abused b/c of getting their hair combed...w/o a perm, most little girls would be in much pain at least once a week when it comes time to get their hair combed. And for the average mother, they do not have the energy or time to wrestle with the moss. ;) Have you ever seen a black woman's hair w/o a perm? It is a holy mess! I walked around w/o a weave or perm in my hair for a week and my kids begged me not to take them to school or refused to be seen with me in public! I looked HORRIBLE! It truly wasn't a matter of vanity; the avg. Joe or Joann on the street probably thought I was on crack or something! I kid you not! I know that white or hispanic women get perms to make their hair curly, but for black women, we do it so we can put a comb through it. No other reason....and I stayed away from perms for so long not b/c of this teaching, but b/c perms were really bad for my hair. My hair fell out by the handfuls for years, so I gave it a much needed break from the chemicals. Now, there are products out there that are much friendlier and healthier for the hair, so I have decided to give it a try. I would probably end up wearing it in a bun or something simple like that anyway in that I shout and dance so hard I would sweat out any hairstyle the dresser gives me. ;)

Now to attempt to answer your question re: chemicals...

The coloring piece is another story. Most women who color their hair are trying to hide something or add highlighting features to it, hence to be seen. And isn't that vanity? I know girls who get burgundy and blond and all kinds of colors, black girls, and I wonder, what r they doing? Why do we highlight anything? A sentence on a pg....to see it. They do it to be seen or to hide age or something. I know fifty years from now when my hair is all white, I will be more than happy to sport it as is, b/c that will let ol' slewfoot know I made it in spite of his attempts to kill me!

Furthermore, I do not see any supporting scripture for this teaching against chemicals. I guess b/c in biblical times there was no such thing as sodium hydoxide. :laugh:

Ultimately, we just have to pray about things the Word of God are silent on. And the Lord will let us know what we should do, Amen? What is good for me may not necessarily be good for you, Capiche? :bow:

I still love you all!

Sis. Wenona

[survivor4christ]

I would like to say hello to everybody. I am back to GNC. Please include me in your prayers....... Please pray for me.

Sister Flora

Sis Flora:

It is good to see you back! I will be praying for your situation. Do know God is a restorer and what the enemy meant for bad God can sure enough turn it around for our good! Amen?

Lord,
Protect Sis. Flora's son as he lies in the custody of his father. Send your Angels to minister to this child right now. Protect his body, mind and spirit. Lord, You sit high and you look low: you know that this father received custody by ill gotten means. I pray that you will let justice prevail in this situation. I pray that you will heal my sister's heart and give her confidence to know she will get her boy back. Give her the peace that surpasses all understanding. Bring the lies of the enemy to the light of those in charge of this situation and let them make the proper decisions re: this child...

In the name of Jesus,
Amen

Sis., Might I suggest that you post this in the Prayer request forum? Much love to ya, Sis. Wenona aka Survivor4christ.

[SisEdith]

Strongs nor biblical uses of the word don't seem to support you definition of the word.

BTW It doesn't say "her covering" or "the covering" but "a covering"


once again Paul was speaking of a natural covering and comparing it to hair.

Man is not to have is head covered(veiled) compared to his hair in that he is to have short hair because long hair is a shame to a man,

No veil for the man compared to having short hair.

Vice versa with women.

They are to be covered(veiled) which is compared to women having long hair.

Covered(veiled) for the woman compared to having long hair.


Yes you're right her HAIR is A covering for her HEAD! And it should not be SHORN which is to cut.

Praise the Lord. The Bible says what it means and it means what it says. It is very plain indeed. Paul was indeed speaking of a "natural" covering.......hair is natural and a veil is fake covering.

We can go back and forth forever on this but I am not budging because this is what Paul was talking about...long uncut hair is a glory to her and her covering.

[SisEdith]

Shorn as used in 1 Cor 11

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 2751 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
keivrw a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Keiro None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ki'-ro Verb

Definition
to sheer: a sheep
to get or let be shorn
of shearing or cutting short the hair of the head


King James Word Usage - Total: 4
shear 3, shearer

Every time the word shorn was used in the bible, it was used in showing that ALL of the hair was cut off, or close to the head.

Amen Sister.

[SisEdith]

Just a warning.I love this thread.It has been one of the most productive in the ladies area.We have remained civil.Some have come and stated their judgemental positions.Lets just keep it going in a civil manner.So far so good.I do see the tendancy for a standards discussion.Take that to the Standards thread please.I love you all.lv sis.c
I do not believe I am being judgmental at all. The Bible says what it means and it means what it says. I will bow out of this particular topic because there really is not to much more to say about it.
Not cutting the hair is a Biblical command and is not a man made standard.

I am enjoying all the hair style posts although it's hard for me to follow some of the how too's lol...can I get some pictures???? I am so unlearned in hair styles.

I love you all too! SisActs....and sometimes Actsup..lol

[Truthseeker]

You can stay Rob but its mostly a thread about hair care etc.I doubt you could share anything...lol...lv sis.c


Ha Ha I can give advice for the sides and back :laugh:

[Truthseeker]

Yes you're right her HAIR is A covering for her HEAD! And it should not be SHORN which is to cut.

Praise the Lord. The Bible says what it means and it means what it says. It is very plain indeed. Paul was indeed speaking of a "natural" covering.......hair is natural and a veil is fake covering.

We can go back and forth forever on this but I am not budging because this is what Paul was talking about...long uncut hair is a glory to her and her covering.


It's not Paul what was talking about, it's what your intepretation of what you think he was talking about.


I'm still waiting for an answer on why there is two definitions of "long hair" used for both genders. Maybe you can give an answer

[NanaRenan]

I do believe that their is power on the head of a woman who will not cut her hair.
I've had a lot of years to observe the role of uncut hair -- in myself and in friends.

One woman I know was a much loved musician. She would walk away from God and immediately "shear" her head. And I do mean "SHEAR"....short like a man's. Then she would come back for a refilling and instantly, the pastor put her back on the organ. I would tell my husband, "It's too soon. She doesn't feel right there yet."

Sure enough, she'd be gone again. In talking to her -- and other sisters, like myself, who've backslid and then returned to the fold -- I began to pick up a pattern.

Almost every single one of us cut our hair drastically upon leaving the church. And upon returning -- repenting and being freshly filled with an outpouring of the Holy Ghost -- we report feeling that "something" isn't quite right. We KNOW we're saved and full of the Holy Ghost, but "something" isn't as it was before.

I finally came to realize -- the glory is gone. The power and glory that comes with UNCUT hair doesn't return overnite when one reconsecrates themselves to Christ. It takes time to demonstrate obedience and submission.

That is not to say if a short-haired sister prayed thru tonight and was taken into eternity tomorrow that she'd be lost. But, the longer she stays in total submission to Christ and leaves her hair uncut, there is a power that will continue to grow within her.

Are there any sister's here, who've walked away from God, cut your hair and finally returned to Him who know what I'm talking about? By contrast, backslidden men who return do NOT report feeling as if "something" is missing.

Sis. Wenona, you ramble any time you want....I enjoy it and will ramble right back atcha! :goof:

[NanaRenan]

What would be silliness is going to a lumbar yard and ask for a long board, when they ask how long, you say one that is uncut. :yeah:

Poor analogy. Boards of wood are by the nature of their existance CUT or they would still be TREES, correct? Boards do not sit around in a lumber yard and continue to grow.

[Truthseeker]

Poor analogy. Boards of wood are by the nature of their existance CUT or they would still be TREES, correct? Boards do not sit around in a lumber yard and continue to grow.


OK poor one

[Truthseeker]

I've had a lot of years to observe the role of uncut hair -- in myself and in friends.

One woman I know was a much loved musician. She would walk away from God and immediately "shear" her head. And I do mean "SHEAR"....short like a man's. Then she would come back for a refilling and instantly, the pastor put her back on the organ. I would tell my husband, "It's too soon. She doesn't feel right there yet."

Sure enough, she'd be gone again. In talking to her -- and other sisters, like myself, who've backslid and then returned to the fold -- I began to pick up a pattern.

Almost every single one of us cut our hair drastically upon leaving the church. And upon returning -- repenting and being freshly filled with an outpouring of the Holy Ghost -- we report feeling that "something" isn't quite right. We KNOW we're saved and full of the Holy Ghost, but "something" isn't as it was before.

I finally came to realize -- the glory is gone. The power and glory that comes with UNCUT hair doesn't return overnite when one reconsecrates themselves to Christ. It takes time to demonstrate obedience and submission.

That is not to say if a short-haired sister prayed thru tonight and was taken into eternity tomorrow that she'd be lost. But, the longer she stays in total submission to Christ and leaves her hair uncut, there is a power that will continue to grow within her.

Are there any sister's here, who've walked away from God, cut your hair and finally returned to Him who know what I'm talking about? By contrast, backslidden men who return do NOT report feeling as if "something" is missing.

Sis. Wenona, you ramble any time you want....I enjoy it and will ramble right back atcha! :goof:


Backslidding is of the ehart not of dead cells called hair. Alot of these feelings about he hair is due to it being preached so long it's received as truth, kinda like the phaisees washing hands before eating. After awile it just would feel right todo otherwise and expect others to believe the same.

Is it scripture is what counts.

[SisEdith]

It's not Paul what was talking about, it's what your intepretation of what you think he was talking about.


I'm still waiting for an answer on why there is two definitions of "long hair" used for both genders. Maybe you can give an answer
As I already said I have said enough. I am firm in my belief and am satisfied with what chapter 11 of corninthians is talking about.

I agree with Sis Pam. There is power with God and it comes from obediance and submission to him and his Word. I have also seen woman who have backslide and the first thing to go is the hair...I wonder why??

[NanaRenan]

Backslidding is of the ehart not of dead cells called hair. Alot of these feelings about he hair is due to it being preached so long it's received as truth, kinda like the phaisees washing hands before eating. After awile it just would feel right todo otherwise and expect others to believe the same.

Is it scripture is what counts.
Backsliding is disobedience and cutting the hair, whether a little or a lot, is just one manifestation of disobedience.

I totally argued from your exact standpoint for many, many years, Brother. So it's not about "just hearing it preached for so long". I totally picked apart the scriptures and dissected them.

But after a long spiritual journey that put my heart where it needed to be -- seeking His pleasure in all things -- I realized I was searching the scriptures intently to prove MYSELF right. Not to glorify Him.

That is when He permitted me to see there are ways to please Him and draw closer to Him that don't require such scrutiny, but are best accepted at face value. As my signature quote implies -- there is much liberty in loving Him thusly.

[Truthseeker]

Backsliding is disobedience and cutting the hair, whether a little or a lot, is just one manifestation of disobedience.

I totally argued from your exact standpoint for many, many years, Brother. So it's not about "just hearing it preached for so long". I totally picked apart the scriptures and dissected them.

But after a long spiritual journey that put my heart where it needed to be -- seeking His pleasure in all things -- I realized I was searching the scriptures intently to prove MYSELF right. Not to glorify Him.

That is when He permitted me to see there are ways to please Him and draw closer to Him that don't require such scrutiny, but are best accepted at face value. As my signature quote implies -- there is much liberty in loving Him thusly.


I've come from the uncut hair doctrine and my wife doesn't cut hers because of my request. But I''ve been dessecting the scriptures as well and come to the conclusion uncut is not what it is saying. I'm not trying to prove myself right, just want to know what is right.

[Truthseeker]

As I already said I have said enough. I am firm in my belief and am satisfied with what chapter 11 of corninthians is talking about.

Same here, but why afraid to answer the question?

I agree with Sis Pam. There is power with God and it comes from obediance and submission to him and his Word. I have also seen woman who have backslide and the first thing to go is the hair...I wonder why??

That's doesn't prove a thing.

[NanaRenan]

I've come from the uncut hair doctrine and my wife doesn't cut hers because of my request. But I''ve been dessecting the scriptures as well and come to the conclusion uncut is not what it is saying. I'm not trying to prove myself right, just want to know what is right.
Brother -- in all godly love and concern, can I suggest "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it."

If leaving it uncut is not a problem for you or your wife, then I dare say its working for ya'll. Then don't waste precious time trying to figure it out. For this is the kind of "confusion" (under the guise of study, academia, enlightenment, etc.) that the devil loves to get a hold of in someone.

Been there, done that and hate to see it happen to anyone else.

[Truthseeker]

Brother -- in all godly love and concern, can I suggest "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it."

If leaving it uncut is not a problem for you or your wife, then I dare say its working for ya'll. Then don't waste precious time trying to figure it out. For this is the kind of "confusion" (under the guise of study, academia, enlightenment, etc.) that the devil loves to get a hold of in someone.

Been there, done that and hate to see it happen to anyone else.


That would hold true for a bible doctrine.

[foreverblessed]

Amen Sister.


I don't think you would be in my amen corner. :)

See, I believe that shorn means to cut short, close to the head, or to shear like a sheep.

Keiro None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ki'-ro Verb

Definition
to sheer: a sheep
to get or let be shorn
of shearing or cutting short the hair of the head

so 1 Cor 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

IF it is a shame to be shorn (hair cut that is close to the head or sheared like a sheep) or shaven (hair totally shaved off) then let her be covered.

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Covering equals hair. Hair that has not been cut close to the head, or sheared like a sheep, or shaved off.

I believe that long or lenthy gender distinctive hair is what is pleasing to God. I do not find biblical foundation for the uncut doctrine. If Paul meant uncut, he could have plainly said so.

Since Ddc doesn't want this to be a hair standards thread, I will go back to discussing hair on Faithchildforums. I was just helping out a friend....I think this is the only issue that Bro. Rob and I agree on! ;)

[foreverblessed]

Yes you're right her HAIR is A covering for her HEAD! And it should not be SHORN which is to cut.



not to just cut, but to cut short

[ddc101]

I am posting this hair discussion primarily for ladies.We are to remain ladylike at all times in what we post.Do not post things that you would not say to your sister face to face.Arguing never solves anything and is a fleshly thing.It actually interupts the flow of the Spirit.
Lets share scriptures of types and meanings and articles of history etc that will edify one another on this subject.I say it can be done in a civilized manner.We many not all agree but we can sure love each other regardless of the stance taken on the issue.
I believe the ladies who are posting are of a very berean nature and it should be lots of fun.lv sis.c
Here is my first post:

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

the bible says it is a glory to her.

1 Cor 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(KJV)

1391 doxa (dox'-ah);

from the base of 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):

KJV-- dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
__________________
I believe the key to revival is unity of purpose.Apostle Paul said,"Follow me as I follow Christ."

[survivor4christ]

1 Corinthians 11
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

[Truthseeker]

1 Corinthians 11
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


Exactly what I believe too!! :tup:

[NanaRenan]

not to just cut, but to cut short
I'd never heard the "uncut" doctrine until I married and moved to Texas. (Altho' my mother never cut her hair in her life, she didn't stop me from trimming mine, nor did I ever hear anyone say it was wrong.)

Anyhow -- I fought against it long and hard. But my husband's pastor taught us that the scripture is worded to mean that "IF" it is cut, it might as well be shorn. (cut really short)

I've looked at the scriptures from every angle, but simply find when I quit trying to find an out and got my prayer life where I wanted it to be that I wasn't willing to take a chance that "to trim" might mean the same as "shorn" to HIM.

That said I do not pass judgement on anyone who DOES cut or trim their hair. I figure they just haven't been where I've been and come to the same conclusions I have.

But, at the same time, I dislike hearing anyone say unequivocally that it doesn't matter at all -- because only God knows -- and to discourage someone from doing something that MIGHT matter to Him isn't a good idea.

But that's just my opinion.

[Victoryitsmine1]

Well i gracefully bow out of this one,,, This is seeming to turn into more of a debate then a nice thread. If we wanted debates I can go find promoe or one of his other counterparts on pal talk or somewhere... God bless yall


Sis T

[Angela071963]

I was raised UPC.

Backslid 8+ years ago - and whacked my knee-length hair off.

I decided about 9 months ago to let my hair grow again. Still living in sin, with no Godly principles guiding me about my hair, just a personal choice... God began to deal with me. Whenever I went to parties, drank, did drugs, etc... I would end up blubbering and crying and having dreams of my past Godly life.

(I had always vowed NEVER to return to church. NEVER!)

To make a long story short - I went to the pastor/church of my youth on February 29, 2004 - prayed through to the Holyghost, was healed completely of alcoholic withdrawal symptoms (been under a Dr.'s care for a year - trying to beat alcoholism on my own).

My point? I believe with all my heart, that when I decided to grow my hair again, it opened a door into my soul, maybe due to my past teachings - that led to my renewal in the Holyghost.

I am no longer a backslider, but am re-born, again! HE is so Faithful!

There IS power!

[lellingsworth]

I am sorry Survivor, why can't you read my post? It shows up fine on my computer.


Also I don't understand why you feel that a woman with uncut hair prays more powerful prayers. James tells us that it is the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man (or woman) that availeth much. There is so much that is more important than the length of my hair or wether I cut it or not. What if I have never cut my hair but I have a spirit of pride, or maybe jealousy? It would seem to me that the condition of ones heart would be more important than the condition of ones hair.


God bless.
Preachnsister
Cheri

I don't know. I kind of agree with Survivor For Christ. There's something about the power of having charge over the angels.

[lellingsworth]

I was raised UPC.

Backslid 8+ years ago - and whacked my knee-length hair off.

I decided about 9 months ago to let my hair grow again. Still living in sin, with no Godly principles guiding me about my hair, just a personal choice... God began to deal with me. Whenever I went to parties, drank, did drugs, etc... I would end up blubbering and crying and having dreams of my past Godly life.

(I had always vowed NEVER to return to church. NEVER!)

To make a long story short - I went to the pastor/church of my youth on February 29, 2004 - prayed through to the Holyghost, was healed completely of alcoholic withdrawal symptoms (been under a Dr.'s care for a year - trying to beat alcoholism on my own).

My point? I believe with all my heart, that when I decided to grow my hair again, it opened a door into my soul, maybe due to my past teachings - that led to my renewal in the Holyghost.

I am no longer a backslider, but am re-born, again! HE is so Faithful!

There IS power!

Angel Gurl- I am so happy for you!!! That never, never thing.... A wise sister once told me that God makes words like that very edible. :)

[ddc101]

Not a coincidence.I was just talking about this with a new sister.Its not the hair that saves us.Its also not the hair that gives you prayer power.Its the attitude and dedication that caused you to dedicate that hair to Jesus that means something beautiful in His eyes.That is called God's marriage bed.It is a relationship issue with Jesus Christ.He loves when his children take on concecrations and dedications to him.lv sis.c

[NanaRenan]

Not a coincidence.I was just talking about this with a new sister.Its not the hair that saves us.Its also not the hair that gives you prayer power.Its the attitude and dedication that caused you to dedicate that hair to Jesus that means something beautiful in His eyes.That is called God's marriage bed.It is a relationship issue with Jesus Christ.He loves when his children take on concecrations and dedications to him.lv sis.c
That's it exactly, Sister. The heart of the matter is our relationship with Him.

[NanaRenan]

My point? I believe with all my heart, that when I decided to grow my hair again, it opened a door into my soul, maybe due to my past teachings - that led to my renewal in the Holyghost.

I am no longer a backslider, but am re-born, again! HE is so Faithful!

There IS power!
Praise the Lord and WELCOME!!


Thank you for the encouragement......despite no other changes in their lifestyle....both my backslidden daughter and my unsaved daughter-in-law have not cut their hair in about a year.

I've been hesitant to place too much importance on it, although inside I did dare to hope either God was preparing them or they were preparing themselves. I'm going to believe with you that something wonderful is about to happen in their lives!

Hallelujah!

[Truthseeker]

Alot of stuff being said about hair that isn't scripture.

[ddc101]

Here is a neat link to look at hair history and pictures of ladies with really nice long hair and hairdos.

http://www.costumegallery.com/Hairstyles/Longhair/Women/menu.htm

[ddc101]

How Soap-Based Shampoos
Do More Harm Than Good

By Jennifer Bahney

I admit it - I used to be one of those people who believed that "natural" products must automatically be better for my hair than products manufactured in a lab. But years of studying trichology and conducting my own non-scientific experiments have convinced me that natural isn't always better - especially when it comes to shampoos.

Many "natural" shampoos are soap-based. You'll see the ingredient listed as "saponified oils" of almond, jojoba, olive, etc. Saponification is simply the process of adding sodium or potassium hydroxide - also known as lye or potash - to animal fats or vegetable oils. The result is an alkaline soap solution. On the chemist's pH scale, alkalis have numbers greater than 7, while acids have numbers less than 7.




Hair is more on the acidic side, and has an ideal pH of 4.5 to 5.5. When a hair is placed in an alkaline solution (like water and baking soda), the cuticle cells swell and lift, leaving the hair with a rough, dull texture. When hair is placed in an acidic solution (water and lemon juice), the cuticle is sealed, leaving the hair smooth and shiny.
Bleaches, hair colors, permanents and relaxers are all alkaline solutions that lift the hair's cuticle to create the desired results.

In addition to roughing up the cuticle, soap-based shampoos also leave mineral deposits behind, which is why hair can appear extra dull after weeks of use. That's why our great-grandmothers often followed their hair washings with a lemon or vinegar rinse - with a pH of 2, the acid rinses would reseal the hair's cuticle, which had been lifted by the alkaline soap.

Today's lab-created shampoos use surfactants to clean the hair. Common mild surfactants that wash away dirt and oil from hair but don't strip away the skin's natural oils are ammonium laureth sulphate and sodium laureth sulphate.

If you still prefer to go "natural", look for shampoos containing cleansing agents such as soapwort (Saponaria Officinalis), soapbark (Quillaja Saponaria), and soapberry (Sapindus Indica). These ingredients will cleanse your hair without swelling the cuticle and causing damage.

[Renee29]

Alot of stuff being said about hair that isn't scripture.

Nope, it's testimony and nobody can argue with your own personal testimony.

[Truthseeker]

Nope, it's testimony and nobody can argue with your own personal testimony.

Line upon line, precept upon precept....


Scripture determines a doctrine not a testimony.

Anyways, I wasn't refering to anyone testimony, but the nonbiblical things expressed about hair.

[Renee29]

Line upon line, precept upon precept....


Scripture determines a doctrine not a testimony.

Anyways, I wasn't refering to anyone testimony, but the nonbiblical things expressed about hair.

This is true.....however, many people can argue away at Acts 2:38 and get someone mighty confused. However, you can't argue away someone's testimony. Sort of like the song, "Something, bout the power of the Holy Ghost, I can't explain it, but I've got it."

[Truthseeker]

This is true.....however, many people can argue away at Acts 2:38 and get someone mighty confused. However, you can't argue away someone's testimony. Sort of like the song, "Something, bout the power of the Holy Ghost, I can't explain it, but I've got it."


True, that is why I wouldn't argue a trinitarians testimony.

[NanaRenan]

Here is a neat link to look at hair history and pictures of ladies with really nice long hair and hairdos.

http://www.costumegallery.com/Hairstyles/Longhair/Women/menu.htm
That was very interesting Sister C....thanks for sharing it.

I loved those Seven Sutherland Sisters, didn't you??

Always makes me wonder -- who was it decided that split ends are "ugly"?

Hollywood??

I think they're just evidence of our submission and therefore LOVELY in God's eyes!

[lhardin]

Hey I made a mistake and posted my reply to another topic. My responce was about the comment someone made about African American hair. Hope you can find it.

Latonral

[ddc101]

I have a daughter whose hair draws attention.lv sis.c

[mrspac]

:icon_dancI agree that your hair is your glory and you should not cut your hair:sb:

[holiness_gurl]

hello everyone,
i am new on here and i'm not apostolic put i am pentecosal and i'm sorry to change the topic but what is the difference in apostolic pentecostals and plain ol' pentecostals? i really didnt mean to change a subject but i just happenned to be on this and thought of that question.....sorry! oh and can i ask maybe that yall email me and explain because i dunno if i will be allowed to be back on this site cause my dad is a sinner and he totally disagrees with my beliefs and all:( .....thanx
luv and prayers
jessica

coggirl_jc89@yahoo.com

[ddc101]

Bump
This thread is worth rehashing.I read some if it and its awesome.Its the most civil discussion I have ever had on hair.In fact I want to make sure to print some of these discussions and read them again slower.lv sis.c

[GodsTruthIsHi-R]

I go to an apostolic assembly church now (vs. UPCI), and they wear veils. As I read ICorinthians, I can see where they get it, just as I can see where others get the 'uncut' doctrine.

Do you think that whoever is wrong is going to be judged!? and that God is very unhappy with them? and that if "they" {the other side} will pray and fast 'God will SHOW them the truth'?

Is God showing the UPC women that their uncut hair IS their covering, but he is showing the apostolic assembly women that the veil is their covering?

And why is everyone so concerned with what I believe? Why don't they keep their convictions THEIR convictions, and leave me out of it? Do they think because I don't believe what they believe I am LOST? and don't serve the same God that they do? or that I'm not spiritual enough to see it?

Has anyone truely had God talk to them directly about this? with a tongues interpretation or something of that magnitude? anyone?

[Melody]

I have no problem with women who want to wear a veil but don't expect me to agree to do so also.

Anytime God has made a requirement He has always given the specifics on how to keep that requirement.

If God commanded women to wear veils he would have also included specifics on how long they should be, what material they should be made of etc....

The scripture is quite clear that a woman's hair is her covering.

1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.

[tufluv]

1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.
My emphasis added in above quote., the letter "a"..as it indicates that there can be more than ONE covering., and Peter was most likely referring to this fact.
*sigh*
.. well I DO wear a veil having sought my LORD AND HIS WORD on this..I do consider it biblical., an honor and blessing to wear one..

I am wondering if this type "talk or topic" might be considered as part of the "standards" thread and we shouldn't be discussing this at all on this thread???? :eek:

'nuf said..
g'night
GOD BLESS!

[Melody]

My emphasis added in above quote., the letter "a"..as it indicates that there can be more than ONE covering., and Peter was most likely referring to this fact.
*sigh*
.. well I DO wear a veil having sought my LORD AND HIS WORD on this..I do consider it biblical., an honor and blessing to wear one..

I am wondering if this type "talk or topic" might be considered as part of the "standards" thread and we shouldn't be discussing this at all on this thread???? :eek:

'nuf said..
g'night
GOD BLESS!

a is singular not plural.

[ddc101]

I think the veil thing veers a bit and maybe you guys could look up that thread in the archive.
But regardless of veil or no veil.The Lord is the maker of Heaven and Earth.
lv sis.c

[Apostolic Kitty]

Now, now, ladies... No splitting hairs on this topic...

[angelindesguise]

I'd never heard the "uncut" doctrine until I married and moved to Texas. (Altho' my mother never cut her hair in her life, she didn't stop me from trimming mine, nor did I ever hear anyone say it was wrong.)

Anyhow -- I fought against it long and hard. But my husband's pastor taught us that the scripture is worded to mean that "IF" it is cut, it might as well be shorn. (cut really short)

I've looked at the scriptures from every angle, but simply find when I quit trying to find an out and got my prayer life where I wanted it to be that I wasn't willing to take a chance that "to trim" might mean the same as "shorn" to HIM.

That said I do not pass judgement on anyone who DOES cut or trim their hair. I figure they just haven't been where I've been and come to the same conclusions I have.

But, at the same time, I dislike hearing anyone say unequivocally that it doesn't matter at all -- because only God knows -- and to discourage someone from doing something that MIGHT matter to Him isn't a good idea.

But that's just my opinion.

Good post Sister.

[tellmehow]

Not true. Shorn means the shear which is a type of cut, kinda like crew cut is a type of cut.

Here are the places the word shorn is used:


Song 4:2
Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.


Sheep that are shorn, type of cut.

Acts 18:18
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.


"having shorn his HEAD" You see, you don't shorn hair, you shorn heads.
.

keiro, Greek 2751, Strong’s
keiro, ki'-ro; a primary verb; to shear :- shear (-er).

When one was under a vow they would shorn/shear there head like a sheep would be sheared.




1 Cor. 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

The covering in this scripture is speaking of a veil, so he was saying no veil is the same as if women is shorn.

1 Cor. 11:6 NASB
For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.

1 Cor. 11:6 ASV
For if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it is a shame to a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.




The word covered means
katakalupto, Greek 2619, Strong’s
katakalupto, kat-ak-al-oop'-to; from Greek 2596 (kata) and Greek 2572 (kalupto); to cover wholly, i.e. veil :- cover, hide.




Paul is just making a comparison between a natural veil and hair. How just as it is comely and accepted for women to have long hair, she is to be covered while in prayer or prophesying.

This is interesting.

I just look the dictionary...

webster dictionary: shorn mean shear
Thesaurus dictionary: shorn mean hairless

I see what your trying to accross.... If we use the thesaurus dictionary saying... hairless..

If a woman hairless let it be covered???? Because she is bald headed. And if she ashame being bald headed let her wear the veil? That way she won't be ashamed?? Correct?

Is this what your trying to accross? hahahaha:icon_laug

[Monique.]

I'm a member of the Apostolic Assembly where we still believe in the Veil plus long hair.
During prayer at the alter or in my prayer closet there is a special reverence in a veil made especially for the purpose of virtuous submission. But there have been times where i have had to pray in a parking lot for a friend or during school hours where i get a call from G-d for intercession and i did not have my veil.
I believe very much that it's a matter of the intention of the heart.

I've been in the presence of such inspiring women from the UPCi, that i could never speak against not wearing a veil.

The word is true when it speaks of a G-dly woman's hair being her glory. Especially during these "Modern times," when almost every other woman has her hair cut so short. The difference is incredibly beautiful.

[luvmyfamily]

Can anyone tell me why then a man would not find long hair beautiful, only annoying? Even a man of God? What is it that he is not seeing when he looks at his wife and daughters? Why does he seem to go out of his way to sincerely believe and assert that women with long hair (Corinth. 11) does not apply to us today? Why does he have to make it so hard for me to be completely submissive to him, in the way I know I need to be, and want to be, by ordering me NOT to wear a veil (or covering, what have you), and making such an issue out of me and our daughters' long hair, to the point of frequent threatening of taking them to the salon to get their hair cut?

Can anyone tell me why?

[Deonna]

Can anyone tell me why then a man would not find long hair beautiful, only annoying? Even a man of God? What is it that he is not seeing when he looks at his wife and daughters? Why does he seem to go out of his way to sincerely believe and assert that women with long hair (Corinth. 11) does not apply to us today? Why does he have to make it so hard for me to be completely submissive to him, in the way I know I need to be, and want to be, by ordering me NOT to wear a veil (or covering, what have you), and making such an issue out of me and our daughters' long hair, to the point of frequent threatening of taking them to the salon to get their hair cut?

Can anyone tell me why?

It sounds like he is feeling the pull of the world. Possibly embarrassment because of ribbing by other guys or looks from other people when you're out in public. Pray for him and love him. God will bring his heart around.

Is he saved or unsaved?