What is the "Affirmation Statement"?

[luvmyfamily]

Hi there, I really need some answers to my questions.

Ok, here's the deal. One evening when we had the pastor of a UPC and his wife at our house soon after we moved to our new town, and we had good talks. However, the pastor mentioned and explained something about the UPC's "Affirmation Statement" (with the cover letter) that every pastor has to sign, now every year. He went on to explain that the cover letter says for them to go ahead and sign it, even if they didn't agree with or believe in every single little thing in there. He said that most ministers think it is ridiculous to have a whole bunch of literally legalistic/phariseeical points in the affirmation statement.

In any case, my husband is really having a problem knowing about this. We are trying to find a church home and he thinks it is extremely hypocritical for preachers to be signing things they don't completely agree with or believe in. My husband is new to the UPC, and there are so many things he doesn't understand. But his point is valid.

I am not trying to make anybody angry, not trying to stir things up. But I really need to know about this, because me and my children really like the Pentecostal church. I also would like to know what other ministers and/or other brothers and sisters thought of this. If anyone prefers to reply to me privately, you are welcome to. I understand the possibility of this being a sticky issue.

[LilOrphanAnnie]

No church or organization is perfect. Some people do feel strongly that it is wrong to sign such an affirmation statement. Whether it is, or not, I think it is more important to attend a church that teaches right doctrine (Apostolic) and where you can grow, and love God, and love others. There will always be some thing that people don't agree on, it is true for me, it is true for everybody. The main thing is to love Jesus, and to love each other with compassion, overlooking one another's faults, and to follow Jesus. You need a church, we all do.

[dllong]

ORIGINAL PREAMBLE & RESOLUTION

"Whereas Jesus warned us concerning the last days saying that `many ei false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many' (Matthew 24:11) and `false if Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if e: it were possible, even the elect' (Mark 13:22), and

Whereas the apostle Paul likewise warned the church saying, `Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils [subversive doctrines inspired by devils -NEB]' (I Timothy 4:1) and that `grievous wolves [shall] enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things [perversions of truth - TCNT] to draw away disciples after them' (Acts 20:29-30), and

Whereas we are seeing these things being fulfilled before our eyes with
false doctrines and seductive spirits rampant throughout the earth, and some even within our fellowship being led astray by them, and

Whereas we are commanded, `in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us [who despises the teachings we gave you- Phillips]' (II Thessalonians 3:6) and `mark them which cause divisions and C offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them [disassociate yourselves from - TCNT]' (Romans 16:17), and

Whereas the Fundamental Doctrine and the Articles of Faith of our organization are scriptural teachings, and

Whereas it is our pledge to wholeheartedly teach and preach our t standards of holiness, which we all agreed to abide by when we applied for r membership in the United Pentecostal Church International, and

Whereas we are forbidden to speak or write in opposition to any of the Articles of Faith (General Constitution, Article VII, Section 7, paragraph 15), and

Whereas some have endeavored to retain their current fellowship card while departing from the faith as outlined in our Articles of Faith and have even
threatened to go to law to sue the United Pentecostal Church International if they are dealt with by their district board,

Therefore be it resolved that the following statement be sent to each minister to be signed before his or her fellowship card for the following year is mailed from World Evangelism Center.

I, (John Doe) , do hereby declare that I believe and embrace the Fundamental Doctrine as stated in the Articles of Faith as set forth in the Manual of the United Pentecostal Church International. I also believe and embrace the holiness standards of the United Pentecostal Church International as set forth in said Articles of Faith, and I pledge to practice, preach, and teach the same.

Signature ___________________

Date ______________


Further, be it resolved that this statement, including the preamble, be mailed to every minister from headquarters each year, at least sixty days prior to the issuance of the annual fellowship cards. Said statement is to be signed by each minister and mailed back to headquarters before his or her fellowship card may be issued to said minister.

Further, be it resolved that the following paragraph be added to the General Constitution as Article VII, Section 7, paragraph 14, and that subsequent paragraphs to be renumbered:

All ministers, licensed or ordained, shall be required to sign an annual statement reaffirming their loyalty to the Fundamental Doctrine as stated in the Articles of Faith and the holiness standards as stated in the Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International. Said statement shall be sent to each minister at least sixty days prior to the expiration of his current fellowship card. Any minister failing to sign and return the statement within this sixty-day period shall be notified that after thirty days his membership fellowship card will be suspended. After this thirty-day grace period, a suspended minister must fill out a new application for license or credentials together with a signed statement and appear before the district board before he may be considered for reinstatement.

[seguidordejesus]

Why in the world would the UPC pastor even bring that up to you???

[jbenjesus]

ORIGINAL PREAMBLE & RESOLUTION

...

Whereas it is our pledge to wholeheartedly teach and preach our t standards of holiness, which we all agreed to abide by when we applied for r membership in the United Pentecostal Church International, and

Whereas we are forbidden to speak or write in opposition to any of the Articles of Faith (General Constitution, Article VII, Section 7, paragraph 15), and

Whereas some have endeavored to retain their current fellowship card while departing from the faith as outlined in our Articles of Faith and have even threatened to go to law to sue the United Pentecostal Church International if they are dealt with by their district board,

...Highlighted items speak volumes of the heart of the organization and what they are really about.

It speaks of the exclusivity of the organization being the only one in the "faith", because in their eyes if you leave them you have "left the faith", as if they are the only source of truth. As if they are the only true Church here on earth. Sounds so much like the Catholic church.

It's about complying with their rules and interpretations of scripture or hit the road jack. You're not wanted round here no more. Sounds so much like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. Except in Jesus' day they crucified you in the flesh.

In our day, they try to crucify you in the spirit and cage you like an untamed animal.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

[luvmyfamily]

Well the topic only casually came up over the course of our conversation, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was meant as only a brief mention in whatever it was we were talking about. But my husband instantly picked up on it and went from there and turned it into an issue. It should not have been that big of deal...we should really only have been concerned about what the pastor himself teaches in the church he presides over, which is sound doctrine. But, my husband still has a problem with it.

But I do wonder, perhaps there needs to be a re-examination of various extra-doctrinal, extra-Biblical points that are probably in the Articles of Faith (I can't say that I have read any of it, although I would like to.) The Fundamentals of the faith are very important; what the UPC was founded on, right? But are there various points that have been added to the point of actually BEING legalistic? Are the people free to debate these things, speak up against what would ultimately be not necessary/legalistic? By legalistic I mean rules imposed on the people by OTHER PEOPLE that are not really even mentioned in the Bible.

I am just concerned that it is possible that the organization of UPC may be headed down a Phariseeical road if we aren't careful. Nobody wants that. We all want to be in Unity, after all that's why we came together, right, to form the United Pentecostal Church? To be aware of and sympathetic to each other's differences, and compromise so that we could truly be one?

Our faith is all about Jesus, right? That's really what matters. It's not about how many inches our sleeves have to be, whether we HAVE to wear our hair up or down, or about whether we can't go to ball games but can go to an amusement park (aka "worldly amusements"). So what's it going to be about? The things that Jesus and the apostles really DID teach us, or the things that we as people have tacked on because WE think it best?

So can anyone lead me to the right direction so that I can read the Fundamental Doctrine and the Articles of Faith, etc.? I think it is just as important as reading and knowing about our country's Constitution and Declaration of Independence!

[seguidordejesus]

I think they are headed AWAY from a phariseeical approach, not towards it.

[NanaRenan]

LMF,

I understand your husband's questions and your concerns. I also have watched the enemy make mountains out of molehills over just such "legalities".

There have been "Pharaisees" and "hypocrits" in the Church since it began, and there will continue to be so.

If what the preacher TEACHES (i.e. BELIEVES) is copasetic with your family's beliefs and what you find in the Word of God yourself, then I would think it was pretty much moot whether they'd signed a paper or not.

I may not agree with everything that UPC teaches or stands for, but, to date, I personally have not found any other organization that I trust as adamantly to preach the Truth. But that's just me.

I do feel, there may be a split somewhere down the road -- at that time, and every day until then, I have to pray and trust in God to keep me under good leadership.

God bless.

[tv3a]

I've always said I'd rather go to church with hyporcites than to hell with them.

[NanaRenan]

I've always said I'd rather go to church with hyporcites than to hell with them.

Good point. I've always said it'll take more than a hypocrit or two on the pew beside me to keep me out of Heaven.

[GODis1]

I got my license with UPCI in '75 when Bro. Chambers was in our state for camp.
I have seen many ministers come and go and have preaching of a lot of things that aren't scriptural at all. Some time ago, many left over some doctrines. That was their choice.
Although I'm not pastoring or evangelizing at this present time, I sign the paper and return it with no problem. It is after all, for ministers of the organization. I do have a little better idea of who believes along the same lines as I, and that in no way has anything to do with other organizations. Just this organization.
No church board or laity member has to sign it. It is only for members of that organization.
View points on the matter is one thing, but attitudes and spirits are quite different.

btw- on hypocrites: if people quit church because of them, how many are they around in the world? Do they quit being there also??? ;)

[RevDooley]

I got my license with UPCI in '75 when Bro. Chambers was in our state for camp.
I have seen many ministers come and go and have preaching of a lot of things that aren't scriptural at all. Some time ago, many left over some doctrines. That was their choice.
Although I'm not pastoring or evangelizing at this present time, I sign the paper and return it with no problem. It is after all, for ministers of the organization. I do have a little better idea of who believes along the same lines as I, and that in no way has anything to do with other organizations. Just this organization.
No church board or laity member has to sign it. It is only for members of that organization.
View points on the matter is one thing, but attitudes and spirits are quite different.

btw- on hypocrites: if people quit church because of them, how many are they around in the world? Do they quit being there also??? ;)On this issue, I think it is a travesty when men who we respect sign this and then purchase tv's and send their kids to play in organized sports.
This is plain and simply lying. Shame on the man who does such a thing!

[RevDooley]

Highlighted items speak volumes of the heart of the organization and what they are really about.

It speaks of the exclusivity of the organization being the only one in the "faith", because in their eyes if you leave them you have "left the faith", as if they are the only source of truth. As if they are the only true Church here on earth. Sounds so much like the Catholic church.

It's about complying with their rules and interpretations of scripture or hit the road jack. You're not wanted round here no more. Sounds so much like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. Except in Jesus' day they crucified you in the flesh.

In our day, they try to crucify you in the spirit and cage you like an untamed animal.

Just my thoughts on the matter...The UPCI does NOT think it is the exclusive holder of truth. To be a member, they require that members follow their rules.
You would follow the rules of clubs or organiztions that you were member of wouldn't you?
As the governing body, it is not unreasonable for them to expect a certain level of compliance with issues that they believe are important to the organization and to the church body.
No one is trying to crucify anyone here. Your position while it is your opinion is unfair. You obviously chose to go a different route. Your choice. it doesn't mean that UPCI is wrong for their determinations, just that you disagree with them.
Any minister who so chooses can leave the organization.
A caged animal doesn't have that choice...

[Servant007]

My husband & I are new to The UPC and he has just obtained his license. I know that I love our district and all the people are so respectful and under-standing. I have never to my knowledge attended a UPC church(other than visiting) nor do I now, seeing as how God has not released us from our current work yet. But I love the fellowship that we have in our district and the reverence that the Pastors have for one another as well as for us and other ministers. We are excited to see where God leads us.

As for the affirmation statement, I don't believe you should sign ANYTHING that you don't agree with..........so if it were me I'd take that up with the board. If it's man made stuff it should be left out to begin with or not taught as Heaven or hell issues.

And on another note...I'd be more concerened with the men who sign it, preach it and then go to someone else's house to watch the evening news.

HIS MERCIES ARE NEW EVERY DAY:)

[jbenjesus]

The UPCI does NOT think it is the exclusive holder of truth. They sure do act like it with what they say and how the relate to others. Actions weigh a lot more than words. To be a member, they require that members follow their rules.
You would follow the rules of clubs or organiztions that you were member of wouldn't you? At least someone admits this - the UPC is a club. My words - a fraternity of sorts.
As the governing body, it is not unreasonable for them to expect a certain level of compliance with issues that they believe are important to the organization and to the church body. Moreso to the organization, IMO.
No one is trying to crucify anyone here. You personally, I know not of, but many members in the organization and the organization itself does, IMO. Your position while it is your opinion is unfair. My opinion is quite fair based on my experiences with the organization and those who represent it. And not just my experiences, but also others. However, my opinion is just that. It's not a matter of fair or not. It's just an opinion based upon what was quoted in the affirmation statement, my experiences with said organization and experiences shared by many brethren in the Lord. You obviously chose to go a different route. Your choice. it doesn't mean that UPCI is wrong for their determinations, just that you disagree with them. That's exactly right. I do disagree with them. I also emphatically loathe there manipulative ways of implementing of them.
Any minister who so chooses can leave the organization. This is true.
A caged animal doesn't have that choice...Even a caged animal has choice. They have choice on how to respond to their predicatment and environment. But don't blame them if they do something unseemly because of their caged experience.

Ever read, "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"?

[RevDooley]

Even a caged animal has choice. They have choice on how to respond to their predicatment and environment. But don't blame them if they do something unseemly because of their caged experience.

Ever read, "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"? Your comments leave much to be desired. It would appear that you had a bad experience somewhere along the line and are choosing to spew invective on a whole organization of fine men and women of God simply because of your personal experience. It is wrong for you to accuse as you are doing and to point your finger at things that are not indicative of the whole.
Any time that you get people together there will always be those who will do things outside of the rest of the group and without the consent of the group. That is human nature.
I don't know if you consider yourself a man of God, but if you do you should be a little more careful how you malign a group of people who are trying to maintain a sense of unity while fulfilling the great commission. Disagree with us if you feel to do so, but do not point your judegemental finger at a whole organization just because you have a problem with it. Tearing it apart is downright despicable on your part.
Shame on you!!!

[NanaRenan]

Brothers, let's please keep this civil.

No one can know exactly what another has gone through. For everyone who had a bad experience, there is someone else who has nothing but good to report. We ALL need to be careful to consider how our opinions might sound to someone with differing ones and speak accordingly.

I've been in the position where I was almost ashamed to be counted among the laity of an organization -- but in hindsight, I know the devil was making mountains out of molehills and I wasn't doing as good a job of ignoring him as I should have.

We should always check ourselves before sharing our personal dislikes of an individual, congregation, or organization in a less than flattering light. Lets don't do the devil's work for him and call ourselves 'right' in doing so -- for that is the core of being a Pharaisee.

[jbenjesus]

Your comments leave much to be desired. It would appear that you had a bad experience somewhere along the line and are choosing to spew invective on a whole organization of fine men and women of God simply because of your personal experience. It is wrong for you to accuse as you are doing and to point your finger at things that are not indicative of the whole.
Any time that you get people together there will always be those who will do things outside of the rest of the group and without the consent of the group. That is human nature.
I don't know if you consider yourself a man of God, but if you do you should be a little more careful how you malign a group of people who are trying to maintain a sense of unity while fulfilling the great commission. Disagree with us if you feel to do so, but do not point your judegemental finger at a whole organization just because you have a problem with it. Tearing it apart is downright despicable on your part.
Shame on you!!!I'm sorry brother. I will not be shamed or cursed by you.

Those are my honest thoughts and feelings on the organization and a few of it's members.

I know that there must be some decent, honorable, humble people servants of God within the organization. There must be. They can't all be corrupt, and manipulative, and taking advantage of so many humble, ignorant saints of God, who know no better than to toe the line and become a part of a community because they know not of the freedom in the Spirit of the Lord.

But its so hard for a caged animal to come out and enjoy the fruits of their freedom when for most of their lives they've only known the environment of the cage. They've been conditioned to believe that this is all there is and that "this is as good as it gets".

When you have been on the other side and experienced and partaken of the Love of God and the freedom in the Spirit of the Lord and body of Christ that knows no organizational/denominational bounds and you see so many dear saints being abused and used within this organization it is simply put, deeply grieving.

Deeply grieving...

But it is no surprise to me that a member of the organization can't see it.

To see it, would be to pronounce oneself and very dear and close brethren as guilty.

Many men, Godly or not, do not wish to accept the truth and confess one's own guilt and change the corrupt spirit at work within, which is really one of the truest signs of repentance.

The core of being a Pharisee is hypocrisy and manipulation to the utmost.

I hope and pray to God that I never be found walking in what I've seen with my own eyes and exprienced with my own life and in the lives of other brethren the things that I've seen UPC "ministers" walk in.

With all due respect to you Bro. Dooley and Sis. Renan...

[tv3a]

The Affirmation Statment is a religious form of ethnic cleansing. There were non-salvational issues that people held near and dear and the A.S. was a way to force non-salvational issues upon every licensed minister. The spirit of the merger died when the a.s. was implemented.

[Polaris]

(referring to the letter, quoted below)
THAT'S all that the letter said? Why would anybody have the slightest hesitation in signing THAT? And if they DO have a problem signing it, then as far as I'm concerned, they need to be honest enough to leave and find a fellowship that they DO agree with. It is dishonest and completely unethical to sign a letter saying you agree with these things when you in fact do NOT believe them and are not preaching them any longer. Whether these people agree with it or think it's ridiculous, by signing it, they're saying that this is still what they believe, preach, and stand for in their congregations. If they sign it when they, DON'T hold to these things anymore, then they are lying.

Troy Fullerton
Pauls Valley, OK


ORIGINAL PREAMBLE & RESOLUTION

"Whereas Jesus warned us concerning the last days saying that `many ei false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many' (Matthew 24:11) and `false if Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if e: it were possible, even the elect' (Mark 13:22), and

Whereas the apostle Paul likewise warned the church saying, `Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils [subversive doctrines inspired by devils -NEB]' (I Timothy 4:1) and that `grievous wolves [shall] enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things [perversions of truth - TCNT] to draw away disciples after them' (Acts 20:29-30), and

Whereas we are seeing these things being fulfilled before our eyes with
false doctrines and seductive spirits rampant throughout the earth, and some even within our fellowship being led astray by them, and

Whereas we are commanded, `in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us [who despises the teachings we gave you- Phillips]' (II Thessalonians 3:6) and `mark them which cause divisions and C offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them [disassociate yourselves from - TCNT]' (Romans 16:17), and

Whereas the Fundamental Doctrine and the Articles of Faith of our organization are scriptural teachings, and

Whereas it is our pledge to wholeheartedly teach and preach our t standards of holiness, which we all agreed to abide by when we applied for r membership in the United Pentecostal Church International, and

Whereas we are forbidden to speak or write in opposition to any of the Articles of Faith (General Constitution, Article VII, Section 7, paragraph 15), and

Whereas some have endeavored to retain their current fellowship card while departing from the faith as outlined in our Articles of Faith and have even
threatened to go to law to sue the United Pentecostal Church International if they are dealt with by their district board,

Therefore be it resolved that the following statement be sent to each minister to be signed before his or her fellowship card for the following year is mailed from World Evangelism Center.

I, (John Doe) , do hereby declare that I believe and embrace the Fundamental Doctrine as stated in the Articles of Faith as set forth in the Manual of the United Pentecostal Church International. I also believe and embrace the holiness standards of the United Pentecostal Church International as set forth in said Articles of Faith, and I pledge to practice, preach, and teach the same.

Signature ___________________

Date ______________


Further, be it resolved that this statement, including the preamble, be mailed to every minister from headquarters each year, at least sixty days prior to the issuance of the annual fellowship cards. Said statement is to be signed by each minister and mailed back to headquarters before his or her fellowship card may be issued to said minister.

Further, be it resolved that the following paragraph be added to the General Constitution as Article VII, Section 7, paragraph 14, and that subsequent paragraphs to be renumbered:

All ministers, licensed or ordained, shall be required to sign an annual statement reaffirming their loyalty to the Fundamental Doctrine as stated in the Articles of Faith and the holiness standards as stated in the Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International. Said statement shall be sent to each minister at least sixty days prior to the expiration of his current fellowship card. Any minister failing to sign and return the statement within this sixty-day period shall be notified that after thirty days his membership fellowship card will be suspended. After this thirty-day grace period, a suspended minister must fill out a new application for license or credentials together with a signed statement and appear before the district board before he may be considered for reinstatement.

[RevDooley]

I'm sorry brother. I will not be shamed or cursed by you.I did not curse you friend. That is not found in my post.

Those are my honest thoughts and feelings on the organization and a few of it's members.

I know that there must be some decent, honorable, humble people servants of God within the organization. There must be. They can't all be corrupt, and manipulative, and taking advantage of so many humble, ignorant saints of God, who know no better than to toe the line and become a part of a community because they know not of the freedom in the Spirit of the Lord.Your implication here is that we are all corrupt. I am appalled that you feel this way. Again, not everyone has the same experience as yours. Whatever happened, I am sorry that you feel like you do. I would hope that God would grant you enough humility to be able to shrug it off instead of publicly trashing an organization of men and women of God who are trying to walk the walk of faith. I wonder if I made the same comments toward those that you associate with, would you feel as strongly against them as I do against yours?

But its so hard for a caged animal to come out and enjoy the fruits of their freedom when for most of their lives they've only known the environment of the cage. They've been conditioned to believe that this is all there is and that "this is as good as it gets".

When you have been on the other side and experienced and partaken of the Love of God and the freedom in the Spirit of the Lord and body of Christ that knows no organizational/denominational bounds and you see so many dear saints being abused and used within this organization it is simply put, deeply grieving.

Deeply grieving...Been on the other side huh? That is sad that you look at it that way. I was under the impression that we were on the same side. Evidently not.

But it is no surprise to me that a member of the organization can't see it.

To see it, would be to pronounce oneself and very dear and close brethren as guilty.

Many men, Godly or not, do not wish to accept the truth and confess one's own guilt and change the corrupt spirit at work within, which is really one of the truest signs of repentance.Now we're all corrupt. Wow, what an accusation. It seems to me that the Bible says that the accuser of the brethren is the devil.

The core of being a Pharisee is hypocrisy and manipulation to the utmost.

I hope and pray to God that I never be found walking in what I've seen with my own eyes and exprienced with my own life and in the lives of other brethren the things that I've seen UPC "ministers" walk in.

With all due respect to you Bro. Dooley and Sis. Renan...I agree with this. I would hope that you never walk in it either as I certainly will not. The last thing that the church needs is pharissees that look down on godly men and women and point judgemental fingers at a whole group because of their small experience with a few.

[jbenjesus]

Shame on you!!!These are your words are they not?

Your implication here is that we are all corrupt.You are all not. I did say "there must be some decent, honorable, humble people servants of God within the organization".

This situation can't be shrugged off like it was something that happened in the past and just get over it. It happens even now, the abuse of the beloved brethren of God for the sake of erecting man's kingdom. To the point that beloved brethren's families are falling a part to the point of divorce and the condemning voice comes (present tense) from a UPC minister of God who passively allowed them to continue to serve in his church while watching the family fall apart before his own eyes.

Then he has the gall to blame the wife because she couldn't handle walking in the will of God. As if the will of God is to serve in the church at the cost of broken marriage and family.

And that's just a bit of what I've experienced. Not to mention the hypocrisy and subtle manipulative wiles to keep the sheep in line, to keep the busy in church activies as if that solves all of their problems. Then to top it all off they wan't to cajole money from struggling saints with no papers in order to build their church building fund.

But this is not a new thing. This happens elsewhere. I'm not naive in thinking it only happens with this organization. It happens with others. I know this.

I have problems with people loving loyalty over truth and over righteous judgment and justice.

All of this that I have seen and experienced is in order to keep "ministers" comfortable in their self-erected kingdoms that are painted as if they and their work are the kingdom of God. They brutally use up the poor saints of God who are ignorant to the abuses they themselves endure for the sake of man's kingdom. And the deplorable sadness of it all is they believe that do it for the Lord. They remain ignorant in the vices of the enemy and would prefer the bondage of the enemy over the freedom inherent in the Spirit of the Lord.

Ahhhhhhhhh, makes me want to scream and cry and bellow and groan and kick all at once.

I have to purpose to keep my eyes on Him. Knowing that He will call out from the darkness into His marvelous light those that are His.

But seeing the suffering of my brethren is almost more than I can bear. I longingly await the deliverance for them from my King.

My captain of the hosts of the army of the Lord - Jesus rise up!!!

For your name's sake...

[RevDooley]

These are your words are they not?Yes, and there is a lot of difference between saying "Shame on you" and "Curse you", which I did not do and you cannot prove by my post.

You are all not. I did say "there must be some decent, honorable, humble people servants of God within the organization".Yes, and your continuation of it showed that you do NOT believe it the way that you posted it. It cannot be taken any other way on that one.

This situation can't be shrugged off like it was something that happened in the past and just get over it. It happens even now, the abuse of the beloved brethren of God for the sake of erecting man's kingdom. To the point that beloved brethren's families are falling a part to the point of divorce and the condemning voice comes (present tense) from a UPC minister of God who passively allowed them to continue to serve in his church while watching the family fall apart before his own eyes.

Then he has the gall to blame the wife because she couldn't handle walking in the will of God. As if the will of God is to serve in the church at the cost of broken marriage and family.

And that's just a bit of what I've experienced. Not to mention the hypocrisy and subtle manipulative wiles to keep the sheep in line, to keep the busy in church activies as if that solves all of their problems. Then to top it all off they wan't to cajole money from struggling saints with no papers in order to build their church building fund.

But this is not a new thing. This happens elsewhere. I'm not naive in thinking it only happens with this organization. It happens with others. I know this.Just because someone made a decision that you disagree with doesn't make them wrong. Further, did it involve you directly? If not, then pray for those involved and get on with your life instead of allowing this root of bitterness to dwell in your heart. It will ultimately make you sick and ineffectual in the kingdom.

I have problems with people loving loyalty over truth and over righteous judgment and justice. Couldn't agree with you more. While there are some within the organization that may not feel that way, there is a far larger number who do. I happen to be one of them.

All of this that I have seen and experienced is in order to keep "ministers" comfortable in their self-erected kingdoms that are painted as if they and their work are the kingdom of God. They brutally use up the poor saints of God who are ignorant to the abuses they themselves endure for the sake of man's kingdom. And the deplorable sadness of it all is they believe that do it for the Lord. They remain ignorant in the vices of the enemy and would prefer the bondage of the enemy over the freedom inherent in the Spirit of the Lord.

Ahhhhhhhhh, makes me want to scream and cry and bellow and groan and kick all at once.Please let me know where to write so that I can get some of this fictitious comfort that you mention. I haven't found it yet and now that I know that it is out there, I guess I need to chase it too so that I can be lumped together with all of the rest of the caged animals.

I have to purpose to keep my eyes on Him. Knowing that He will call out from the darkness into His marvelous light those that are His.

But seeing the suffering of my brethren is almost more than I can bear. I longingly await the deliverance for them from my King.

My captain of the hosts of the army of the Lord - Jesus rise up!!!

For your name's sake...Well, obviously that is your skewed opinion. I don't see the suffering ones. I have no doubt that there are going to be some naysayers on this, but it is hardly a large number. If it were, the organization would have fallen apart long ago.

[OneGodDivine]

jbenjesus
Your additude here toward UPCI and its ministers is what makes me careful about posting on the Apostolic Library Forum where you are a moderator, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, and tend to quickly attack anything UPC or anyone who belongs to the orginization. You are walking bitterness, your soul does not know peace, I pray that you find the peace of our Lord Jesus. By the way just cause you are no longer UPC does not give the right to "touch men of God" tread carefully my friend otherwise you may well find yourself in the hands of an angry God..........

With deep sincerety and concern
and a burdan for your soul
In Jesus Name
Joe Goodman

[Polaris]

These are your words are they not?

You are all not. I did say "there must be some decent, honorable, humble people servants of God within the organization".

This situation can't be shrugged off like it was something that happened in the past and just get over it. It happens even now, the abuse of the beloved brethren of God for the sake of erecting man's kingdom. To the point that beloved brethren's families are falling a part to the point of divorce and the condemning voice comes (present tense) from a UPC minister of God who passively allowed them to continue to serve in his church while watching the family fall apart before his own eyes.

Then he has the gall to blame the wife because she couldn't handle walking in the will of God. As if the will of God is to serve in the church at the cost of broken marriage and family.

And that's just a bit of what I've experienced. Not to mention the hypocrisy and subtle manipulative wiles to keep the sheep in line, to keep the busy in church activies as if that solves all of their problems. Then to top it all off they wan't to cajole money from struggling saints with no papers in order to build their church building fund.

But this is not a new thing. This happens elsewhere. I'm not naive in thinking it only happens with this organization. It happens with others. I know this.

I have problems with people loving loyalty over truth and over righteous judgment and justice.

All of this that I have seen and experienced is in order to keep "ministers" comfortable in their self-erected kingdoms that are painted as if they and their work are the kingdom of God. They brutally use up the poor saints of God who are ignorant to the abuses they themselves endure for the sake of man's kingdom. And the deplorable sadness of it all is they believe that do it for the Lord. They remain ignorant in the vices of the enemy and would prefer the bondage of the enemy over the freedom inherent in the Spirit of the Lord.

Ahhhhhhhhh, makes me want to scream and cry and bellow and groan and kick all at once.

I have to purpose to keep my eyes on Him. Knowing that He will call out from the darkness into His marvelous light those that are His.

But seeing the suffering of my brethren is almost more than I can bear. I longingly await the deliverance for them from my King.

My captain of the hosts of the army of the Lord - Jesus rise up!!!

For your name's sake...

You have obviously seen some things that disturb you greatly. I'm not going to discount, "pooh-pooh", or otherwise try to dismiss those things, as I believe that far too much of that goes on, and that in itself is a major problem. So often church trouble reminds me of children playing in the sandbox with laizze-faire adults ignoring them. Some big bully can torment the other kids, pick on them, and even beat them up, but if you complain about it, they say you need to "just try to get along", if you tell on him, you're a "tattle-tale", and if you stand up to him, then YOU get in trouble for fighting. And while the people who were hurt are being chastized for complaining and are essentially being told to "get over it", no one calls the wrong-doers into account and the situation is never rectified.

What you need to understand is that this problem doesn't limit itself to the UPC. I've been appalled by things I've seen in UPC, but I've also been appalled by things I've seen in some independent churches, and in several other organizations. And while you should always be honest about it and never try to cover up what you know when it is relevant and expedient to talk about it, if you can't do anything about it, then what's the use of dwelling on it? Bad things happen--but I've never seen anybody helped by people going to war over it. No matter how bad it is, if people don't want to believe you, you're wasting your time. And if you waste time trying to decry the wrong you see around you, you're in danger of losing your own victory and getting distracted from what God has called YOU to do. Wouldn't it be a shame to let the adversary win yet another battle by getting the people who are doing right so concentrated on the ones who are doing wrong that lose their own focus?

Think about people praying, immersing themselves in God's word, and walking in victory. Think about new saints learning to glorify God in their body and in their spirit, sanctifying their homes and their lives, and learning to please God. Think about couples healing their marriages, and children getting real parents to raise them once their folks are truly converted. Think of spiritual babes splashing in the baptismal tank--picture them learning to talk right, learning to dress right, and learning to pray in the Holy Ghost. Think about people in your own congregation developing a close, abiding relationship with God, being filled with zeal, faith, and wisdom. Looks pretty good, doesn't it? Think about home Bible studies, prayer meetings in the saints' houses, and basking in the Holy Ghost--think on THESE things: "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Let God take care of the reprobates and the false prophets...that's God's job. He knows what He's doing. It only looks like they're getting by.

Troy Fullerton
Pauls Valley, OK

[jbenjesus]

Just because someone made a decision that you disagree with doesn't make them wrong. Further, did it involve you directly? Do you not carry your brother's burdens when they are being affected? Do you not share in their abuses even when you are not directly abused? If not, then pray for those involved and get on with your life instead of allowing this root of bitterness to dwell in your heart. It will ultimately make you sick and ineffectual in the kingdom.I have been praying and continue to pray and minister to those that are being abused. The "root of bitterness" that you see is nothing but righteous indignation against the unjust actions of supposed brethren against the beloved brethren of God. The problem is you never see of find fault in the actions of ministers. They are always right in everything they do and ask of the brethren.

Well, obviously that is your skewed opinion. I don't see the suffering ones. I have no doubt that there are going to be some naysayers on this, but it is hardly a large number. If it were, the organization would have fallen apart long ago.If you did see them, I would hope that you would treat them differently.

[jbenjesus]

jbenjesus
Your additude here toward UPCI and its ministers is what makes me careful about posting on the Apostolic Library Forum where you are a moderator, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, and tend to quickly attack anything UPC or anyone who belongs to the orginization. You are walking bitterness, your soul does not know peace, I pray that you find the peace of our Lord Jesus. By the way just cause you are no longer UPC does not give the right to "touch men of God" tread carefully my friend otherwise you may well find yourself in the hands of an angry God..........

With deep sincerety and concern
and a burdan for your soul
In Jesus Name
Joe GoodmanFirstly, I was never UPC I only attended the church for 2-3 years that was UPC and have seen and experienced the hypocrisy of that church/organization. Why include the organization? Because that church and pastor proudly represented themselves as UPC.

Brother Strange is the one who runs ALF, not I. I am just a PT moderator and if you feel I need to be reported to him to be removed for any words/actions that I have done or not done on ALF, please feel free to let him know. He's really easy to get a hold of if he's not traveling or out of town.

It is amazing to me that if a person shares what he has experienced from an organization and its ministers that he is immediately labeled as walking in bitterness and the old "touching the anointed" phrase (touch men of God) that is used to scare people who are telling the truth.

Ears are shut closed if anyone says anything contrary to the UPC or its ministers. That speaks volumes as well.

[jbenjesus]

You have obviously seen some things that disturb you greatly. I'm not going to discount, "pooh-pooh", or otherwise try to dismiss those things, as I believe that far too much of that goes on, and that in itself is a major problem. So often church trouble reminds me of children playing in the sandbox with laizze-faire adults ignoring them. Some big bully can torment the other kids, pick on them, and even beat them up, but if you complain about it, they say you need to "just try to get along", if you tell on him, you're a "tattle-tale", and if you stand up to him, then YOU get in trouble for fighting. And while the people who were hurt are being chastized for complaining and are essentially being told to "get over it", no one calls the wrong-doers into account and the situation is never rectified. Thank youi for recognizing this.

What you need to understand is that this problem doesn't limit itself to the UPC. This I know, and have readily recognized. I've been appalled by things I've seen in UPC, but I've also been appalled by things I've seen in some independent churches, and in several other organizations. Absolutely true. And while you should always be honest about it and never try to cover up what you know when it is relevant and expedient to talk about it, if you can't do anything about it, then what's the use of dwelling on it? It's easy to dwell on something because you are living in it with brethren who are suffering the experience at present. Bad things happen--but I've never seen anybody helped by people going to war over it. No matter how bad it is, if people don't want to believe you, you're wasting your time. And if you waste time trying to decry the wrong you see around you, you're in danger of losing your own victory and getting distracted from what God has called YOU to do. Wouldn't it be a shame to let the adversary win yet another battle by getting the people who are doing right so concentrated on the ones who are doing wrong that lose their own focus?

Think about people praying, immersing themselves in God's word, and walking in victory. Think about new saints learning to glorify God in their body and in their spirit, sanctifying their homes and their lives, and learning to please God. Think about couples healing their marriages, and children getting real parents to raise them once their folks are truly converted. Think of spiritual babes splashing in the baptismal tank--picture them learning to talk right, learning to dress right, and learning to pray in the Holy Ghost. Think about people in your own congregation developing a close, abiding relationship with God, being filled with zeal, faith, and wisdom. Looks pretty good, doesn't it? Think about home Bible studies, prayer meetings in the saints' houses, and basking in the Holy Ghost--think on THESE things: "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Let God take care of the reprobates and the false prophets...that's God's job. He knows what He's doing. It only looks like they're getting by. Thanks.

Troy Fullerton
Pauls Valley, OK
My mistake was letting my feelings out here in this forum.

Forgive me, Rev. Dooley, Goodman and all others...