cursing the Holy Ghost out of a person...

[seeker]

An emergency board meeting was called by a pastor. Tempers flared and then...the pastor ended up saying something to the effect of...

I curse everyone of you. May the Holy Ghost leave you and never return....

A pastor is preaching from the pulpit. The people did not respond as he wanted....He then states from the pulpit that he is putting a curse on the ones who didn't go to the altar.

What would you do? Is this biblical?

I feel very confused, torn and spiritually/emotionally drained.

seeker

[pastorb]

He is obviously someone devoid of any spiritual maturity and temperance.

I read this to my 15 year old son and he said, are these people aren't for real

What a sad testimony he left for himself.

[survivor4christ]

Proverbs 26 says that a curse w/o a cause will not come. We as the people of God are a blessed people.

NO ONE, and I do mean no one, can place a curse upon you. But yourself. How?

Read Deut. 28. In that chapter is an exhaustive description of what it means to be cursed and what it means to be blessed. And do you know what the Lord said caused the curses to come?

It was disobedience, not a person.

I do mean no harm against leadership, but the incidents you described are spiritual abuse, of which God is not pleased. It is borne out of the spirit of Jezebel. Jezebel is not a spirit where a woman sports a lot of makeup and wears revealing clothes. No. A Jezebel spirit is a spirt that seeks to control the people of God. Some operate out of a spirit of Jezebel out of good intentions. They really want to see people saved, delivered and walking in the power of God. But they are not allowing God to do it; they have ventured off into the flesh.

Zechariah proclaims, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord..."

The revival, the things of God these leaders are seeking after is not going to happen b/c they stranglehold and manipulate people into conviction or submission. No. Even God gives us the power to CHOOSE. The scriptures says, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve...." We are the only creation of God with that power. The power to choose...and many in the name of religion and good intentions are trying to take that power from sincere, hungry sheep by ruling in a Jezebellian spirit. This is not the will of God. God draws us to Him with lovingkindness, and is patient, longsuffering. We venture off into the flesh, get tired of folk not wanting salvation, deliverance, the Holy Ghost, everything that God will have for them, and try to make them want it before it is perhaps the time for them to receive.

I am sorry you have witnessed this side of leadership. But I want to tell you that there are godly leaders out there with a heart for God, who leads by the unction of the Holy Ghost, and not out of their flesh. They are ministers of hope, of redemption, of salvation, of deliverance, of restoration. Many of which are members of this board...

Spiritual abuse is something I wholeheartedly believe many will have to stand before God and give an account to Him as to why they succumbed to their flesh. It is just like Moses who got frustrated with the children of Israel when they 'backslid' and instead of seeking direction from God as to what to do, he took it upon himself to throw down the tablets of commandments. For this Moses missed out on entering the Promised Land. There is a high penalty to pay for ministering in the flesh....

The best thing to do is to pray for those leaders, and get as far from them as you possibly can. If you want more info. on spiritual abuse, please email me at soulsurvivor4christ@hotmail.com.

Love, Sis. Wenona

[Jim]

seeker,

Below is a list of New Testament Scriptures that contain the word "curse" or "cursed."

Since we know it is God's purpose to fill men with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38-39), I know of no basis in the Word of God to believe such an act is biblical. The behavior you describe is specifically addressed in James 3:9.

You asked:

"What would you do?"

1. I would guard my heart against any bitterness forming toward the person who acted in this manner (forgiveness). Forgiveness has nothing to do with approving of wrong behavior.

2. Pray for the person.

3. I would not take any action regarding this quickly and I would seek counsel from Godly brothers and sisters that I trust before I took any action.

4. I am not in a position to know what other actions I might take because I don't know all the circumstances and context involved in this situation. I would pray earnestly that the Lord Jesus guide me in all actions I might take.


Matthew 5:44-46

But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Matthew 26:74-75

Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!”
Immediately a rooster crowed. 75And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.

Mark 14:71

Then he began to curse and swear, “I do not know this Man of whom you speak!”

Luke 6:28

bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.


Romans 12:14

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.


Galatians 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”


Galatians 3:13


Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),


James 3:9


With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. 10Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.


Revelation 22:3


And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.


Matthew 25:41


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


Mark 11:21

And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.”

Hewbrews 6:8

but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


----

When there is a case of clear wrongdoing, repentence is called for rather than cursing:

Acts 8:18-23

And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”


God bless,

Jim

www.GloriousChurch.com

[Jim]

Biblical Submission & Authority in the Church


By Chris Foster



"...But whosoever will be great among you,let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant."

(Matthew 20:26-27)



From the first century church until today, there have been misconstrued notions as to what constitutes true Biblical submission and what establishes true authority. The spirit of Nimrod has attempted to make its way into the church and has been addressed in several passages. I believe the most revealing rebuttal to this brutish spirit is found in Revelation 26 and 15.



"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

"So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate."



God hates (present tense) the deeds, as well as the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. "Nicolaitan" is the compounding of two words; Nike, which means to conquer or triumph, and Laos meaning the people. At times Laos was used to mean the common people and is the basis of our English word, laity; both having the same root, lay. The word, laity, is used to distinguish the non-clergy from the clergy, and as is the case with many words, laity has evolved to also mean a distinguishing of the saints from the ministry.

The Doctrine of the Nicolaitans was in principle, the teaching whereby the ministry ruled over the common people. Its foundation relied upon the concept that the ministry was to be distinguished above, and remain separate from common church folk, i.e. the saints. Thus the understanding of authority and submission became tainted with this unbiblical view. Common folk (saints) that did as they were told by the ministry were considered submitted; those who did not were considered rebels. The ministry became the self-perpetuating authority triumphing over and conquering what they considered "just saints."



Ministry / Saints



The Bible does not teach that God intended for there to be ministers, and then separate and distinct from the ministers are the saints. By definition, a saint is one who is consecrated, set apart for a special purpose, and a minister is an attendant, a waiter, or servant. We have all been saved to serve; we were not saved to sit. God set all of us apart for the purpose of service. All are not called to the ministry of the Word, but we are all called to be involved in the work of the ministry.

Ephesians 38 tells us that God gifted men. Verse 11 shows how He gifted them; as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

For what purpose did He gift men? For the perfecting (katartismos - complete furnishing, or equipping) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for the edifying (oikodome - architecture, or building up) of the body of Christ. God gifted men to equip people who have been set apart.

Set apart for what? For the work of ministering to and building up of the Church! A saint that is not ministering may indeed describe some who attend our churches, but there is no biblical foundation whereby the saints are to be distinguished separately from the work of the ministry.



The Biblical View



If that is true, then what is the correct Biblical view of authority and submission? Authority to some may be defined as those in charge and submission defined as those who comply with that control, but that is not what the Bible teaches.

The word "submit" used in the Bible in the Greek form is hupotasso, meaning to subordinate oneself, be under, subdue unto, be made subject to, submit self to. Notice the primary definition did not say to be made subordinated, but to subordinate oneself.



A Word Study



Etymology, the study of words in their original application, tells us that the word, submit, in its original application was a military term used in battles and forays. For example, three leaders would be chosen to attack an enemy position. Possibly a frontal and two flanking maneuvers would be employed. The leader who was chosen for the frontal attack would carry the greatest responsibility for the success of the campaign. Those involved in flanking maneuvers would obligate themselves to come to the aid of the leader with the greatest responsibility. They would submit themselves, not because of rank, but because of an understanding of responsibility. They understood the mission and chose to become responsible for its accomplishment.

If I may play on the word, submission; sub meaning under, and mission meaning purpose. True submission then is taking responsibility for accomplishing the purpose.

We can apply this truth to Paul's statement in Ephesians 522. The woman is not considered a second-class citizen nor is she to be ruled over. The husband is given responsibility for the purpose and direction of a household, which is to glorify God. The woman obligates herself to help accomplish that purpose and thus has a part in bringing that glory to God. Thus she fulfills the role of the submitted one, not by constraint, but willingly.



Jesus View



Jesus gave us the correct view of authority in Matthew 20:25-27. The people who are greatest in this church are the people who are serving. Authority is commensurate with service. Proportionally, the lesser becomes the greater, in the Kingdom of God.



* * * * * * *



Fred Childs recently published a book, "Church Leadership Essentials", which contains a chapter entitled, "Leadership is not Control". He writes about control relative to the church. "Leaders are called to lead people and control process, not the other way around." He cites several instances where leaders have used obnoxious tactics to gain control over others and makes it clear that it all boils down to one thing.



A very small person can dominate others, but it takes a real leader to influence others to become more than they are.



The question is not - are you in charge?

But - are you involved in doing what God has charged you with doing?



In other words,

are you submitted? or,

do you exercise authority over others?




(Respectfully Submitted) cf



This article was published in the November 1999 issue of "The Apostolic Writers Digest." For information about "The Apostolic Writers Digest" contact Marjorie Kinnee, Managing Editor brokin_m@hotmail.com

[Jim]

TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED?

by John R. Anderson
January 1997



One of the most common errors found in Christianity today is that particular persons, usually pastors or evangelists, are somehow more "anointed" than the average Christian. This teaching often coincides with a veiled threat in the form of "touch not mine [the Lord's] anointed," (I Ch. 16:22, Ps. 105:15).

The term "anointing" means to "authorize, or set apart, a person for a particular work or service," (Is.61:1). The New Testament is absolutely clear on whom the anointing rests - ALL of Christ's disciples, who are God's very own, set apart and commissioned for service (2 Cor. 1:21). The New Testament does not support the notion of a "greater" anointing based on "position" and such teaching has its origin in a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between the Old and New Testaments.

Proponents of this error fail to use careful exegesis to discern the difference between the Old Testament call of a "prophet," where the anointing rested on one man (Is. 61:1, I Sam. 26:9,11, 2 Sam. 22:51, 2 Chr. 6:42), and the New Testament call of a "priesthood of believers" (I Pet. 2:5,9). Certainly there are diversities of gifts, but the Spirit [or anointing] remains the same (I Cor. 12). Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and many others have long terrorized God's people with "touch not mine anointed" nonsense if anyone dared question them or their teaching. Anyone who has a gift (all have gifts, 1 Cor. 12:7-11), has a ministry, and anyone who has a ministry, has authority and is anointed.

It is a sad situation in many churches today that "laity" are content to sit on a pew week after week and assume the opinions of professional clergymen are to be the final authority. They find comfort in this approach because it is safe. Preachers are content to keep it this way because it secures their position in the church.

How many times have believers been subjected to mishandled scripture with an implicit or explicit "touch not God's anointed" if any dared to question? This is in contrast to the Biblical admonition to "try the spirits", (1 John 4:1). Fear is not of God and teaching which incorporates psychological intimidation is corrupt and deceptive. One of the easiest ways to determine what "spirit" motivates a person "in authority" is to question them. A godly man or woman will never be offended or become indignant if someone dares to question them and compare what is said with the Word of God. However, if one is motivated by an "authoritarian" spirit of conceit or arrogance, the questioner will soon know it. Peter warned the elders (pastors and spiritual guides of the church) not to be domineering [arrogant, dictatorial, overbearing] over the flock of God, but to be patterns and models of Christian living (I Pet. 5:3, AMPL.)

Many prominent pastors and evangelists today make the claim that because "healings" take place in their meetings, this somehow validates their ministry. While these things may be well and good, they are no indication of "divine" sanction. A.A. Allen was a drunkard, Jimmy Swaggart a whoremonger, Jim Bakker a thief, Larry Lea a prevaricator, and Robert Tilton a charlatan - yet ALL of these saw miracles take place in their meetings. Because one is blessed with "prosperity" and has a "following" of thousands, doesn't mean anything when it comes to integrity and godly sanction, for "he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust," (Matt. 5:45).

Twenty-six years ago I experienced the greatest miracle of my life - the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This experience came in a Pentecostal "holiness" church where, unbeknown to me at the time, the pastor was committing adultery, one of the deacons (or "pillars" of the church as they were called) visited a prostitute on a regular basis, another deacon kept a large supply of porno magazines in his home, and still another was a philanderer. This taught me that just because God moves in a particular setting, it is no indication that those who bear the message are "godly."

[John Atkinson]

"What would you do?"

1. I would guard my heart against any bitterness forming toward the person who acted in this manner (forgiveness). Forgiveness has nothing to do with approving of wrong behavior.

2. Pray for the person.

3. I would not take any action regarding this quickly and I would seek counsel from Godly brothers and sisters that I trust before I took any action.

4. I am not in a position to know what other actions I might take because I don't know all the circumstances and context involved in this situation. I would pray earnestly that the Lord Jesus guide me in all actions I might take.


This looks like sound counsel from Bro. Jim, I second it. Without knowing all the details (nor do I feel that such details should be aired here) I think this is about all anyone here can offer you.

[drummerboy_dave]

I grieve with you, Seeker. I know this is a very difficult time for you. I encourage you, to remain faithful to God. Don't let anyone or anything seperate you from Christ.

Looks like your church is going through some turmoil, but God is still on the throne.

I sense, that you are aware of your next step. Boldly go forth, with the grace of God. He will help you!

[tufluv]

SEEKER:

WELCOME!
Sounds weird to me, and I have to wonder, how you can even begin to let this bother you? What makes you even think this is really possible, that someone can curse the HG out of you?

Its an absurd notion to me, the one whom gives the HOLY GHOST, is not an "Indian giver", HE would be the only one whom could ever take it back, anyway, as for curses, they don't work, unless you give them the power to work. Its all up to you, to let it get to you, or ignore it, have FAITH in the one whom has ALL POWER, Jesus Christ. It matters not all the details around this incident, so much as GOD IS IN CONTROL! Nothing happens without his knowlege, he is the only real judge, jury, and executioner! AMEN!?
Praise God, HE is all the answer you need, take heart, keep your eyes focused on JESUS, and you can't go wrong, HE is the Master surgeon whom can fix all broken hearts! and avenge HIS own!

IF for some reason, anyone may think I am out of line in anyway for my response, sorry! This is just my humble take on this.:)

TO GOD BE THE GLORY!

[ddc101]

Seeker,
That is a full blown case of witchcraft.and witchcraft is a work of the flesh.Go and check the works of the flesh and you will find it listed there.If this is the church you are attending I would think very seriously about praying for Gods will and if it is.I would vote with my feet because the church will backslide from the onslaught of witchcraft coming out of the pulpit.You bet I would worry.We war enough and sure don't need it from our brethren.
Coming from a sinner this would not even war you period but when a saint entertains witchcraft the whole church feels it in the spirit realm.The intercessors will hear it in the Spirit realm all day long and be worn down.Just like when new people receive the Holy Ghost and we have to pray and prophecy against the Dung Gate.This was the gate to the city where all the refuge went out.
It was also where the dogs and swine gathered to eat the garbage.We don't need the Dung gate spiritually backing up.
I would call together the intercessors and all pray against this spirit that is trying to gain control.It is not the man himself but the enemy trying to gain entrance.Think it can not happen? Remember that the Lord rebuked Satan within Peter.I can almost spell out the situation without even knowing the people involved.This is a church that needs to be preached to about denying self will and denying the flesh.The fruit of this is very loud and clear.lv sis.c

[survivor4christ]

Amen and amen, Sis. Cooper...

Sis. Wenona

[Sandy]

I also agree sister cooper. And not only that, but I would take authority over that spoken Word and rebuke it just like Jesus did when Peter spoke the wrong thing too, cursing mankind from salvation. It may not seem like he was, and yes, he did so ignorantly. But Jesus seemed to think it important enough to rebuke it when he said it because it was against the will of God, and when someone says something like it, we should too. Don't think for one minute that anothers words do not have any power, because they do.

To prove it, why do we baptize in the name of Jesus, speaking that name over them? And that is just for starters. So to begin, cover yourself, and the other saints by doing the same as Jesus di, and rebuke it, whether it was ignorantly said or not.

My husband and I will also be praying for you and all those others too, doing this as well.

And yes, you also need to pray for this man too, that God deliver him from the gaul of bitterness and rebellion he so obviously is walking in.

[seeker]

I want to say thanks for all the wonderful counsel, thoughts and prayer that was given regarding this topic. It is also very relieving to have what I felt confirmed. seeker

[truemessianic]

The issue here is a man overstepping his boundaries. He is trying to make himself Jesus Messiah, by speaking a curse upon the people. He is making the people subjective to his spiritual authority with wrath, and then think he can just tell the Spirit of Messiah what to do. He can just curse a man, then the Holy Spirit will just do it. What is needed here is repentance and some serious seeking of the Lord by this man, and the rejection of all forms of pride out of this work.
So, we should always be aware of our spiritual condition, and be prayerful, lest we fall into the snare of temptation of pride.

[Adoniyah]

Seeker:

Anyone that would say those things are obviously tormented in their souls. They need salvation and washing of all that bitterness.

I would recommend that you not react to it such deluded expressions of pride. Only pray that the Lord will have his way.
Stay sweet in your own soul without allowing yourself to come under his control.

The church does not belong to any man. It belongs to the Lord Jesus, only. Men such as these two that you mentioned, come and go and soon their memory is lost forever. Meanwhile, you must remain true to God. Pray for them that the Lord will have mercy on them.

Baalam found out the truth of the matter: THAT WHICH GOD HAS BLESSED CANNOT BE CURSED.

Sister Wenona:

Your first post above was a very intelligent and wise post. I enjoyed reading it.

Sister Ddc:

Your are right Sis. It is a spirit of witchcraft. It is a work of the flesh. Actually, the man has lifted himself up above God himself. IT is the spirit of the devil. He has become self exalted in his attempt to control people.

[dllong]

The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.

Proverbs 17:3

[bill]

Let us all remember that there are two sides to every story...

Just my humble thoughts.

[John Atkinson]

Yes, there are two sides, but a pastor who operates in a spirit that curses has no business being in the ministry.

I understand that ministers can get frustrated with unresponsive saints and carnal board members with no vision, not saying this is the case, but even if it were, the pastor who who resort to that has some serious issues to work out with God.

That kindof controlling spirit is ungodly, and as is elucidated elsewhere, is the spirit of the Nicolaitanes.

[bill]

Bro John,

All that I meant was that sometimes people perceive things the wrong way. Ministers often say things and it's taken way out of context. Thus, we don't know exactly what was said, much less the spirit with which it was said. I have a very hard time believing that a minister would wish the Holy Ghost to depart and actually curse anyone, much less his board members and entire congregation. It's best to reserve judgment until we know all the facts.

[seeker]

Brother Bill,
You may not believe it, but it is true. Although maybe you misunderstood one thing. He did not curse the entire congregation, just the ones who did not go up at the altar call. This is the same man who told me ....”God is going to honor every word that comes out of my mouth, because I am the Pastor....and...If the Pastor tells you the grass is blue, even if it looks green to you, you better believe your Pastor.”

My intention for starting this thread was to see if a pastor cursing someone was biblical and an acceptable thing for a pastor to do. I did not feel in my spirit that he was right to say it, but we are taught to obey and trust our pastors.

I had thought about changing churches, I had asked about it on another thread, but decided to wait until I was sure about some things. I have tried remaining loyal to my pastor because he is my pastor.

I have love for this man, and wanted to see him succeed. He has struggled with some unwilling saints, very tight finances, and not enough workers in the church. He has been accused of ungodly things by an ungodly “saint”which I don’t believe are true. I have tried to help him all I could. I have seen and heard things that only well-established mature saints should be witness to, and I am totally saddened and confused by what I see.

seeker

[tufluv]

SORRY, BUT I disagree with the following statement:

"Jezebel is not a spirit where a woman sports a lot of makeup and wears revealing clothes"

BUT, it IS an indicator of the vanity spirit within this spirit of Jezebel. That cannot be under underempasized.

[Adoniyah]

Seeker the Pastor said, ”God is going to honor every word that comes out of my mouth, because I am the Pastor....and...If the Pastor tells you the grass is blue, even if it looks green to you, you better believe your Pastor.”

You need to pray earnestly for this poor man. Also pray for the church earnestly. This man desires his congregation to surrender their minds to him. I have seen this many times. Jim Jones had his congregation to drink cyanyde that resulted in the death of almost a thousand people because those poor deluded people had surrendered their minds to him. You must NEVER do that...not to him...not to anyone...ever.

My former Pastor, G. A. Mangun, told me something when I was quite young that I have never forgotten. He said, "The body of Christ has a way of purifying itself. Don't you ever take matters in your own hands, God will handle it."

You do not need to leave your church. That church does not belong to that man. It belongs to God. No doubt you are where you are because of divine appointment. Therefore, I would ask that you give yourself to diligent prayer and even fasting for not only the church but the man also. If you leave, who will do the work that God has called you to do there?

Let the saints grown up and recognize their calling and responsibility to their church and not take flight just because things are terrible. Both you and the church will be better for the trial.

[bill]

Seeker,

There are many ways to handle this, most of them are the wrong way.

Remember that there are always two sides to each and every story. Go to your pastor personally and tell him that he offended you and talk to him about it. You'll both feel better afterwards, if you go in the right and humble spirit.

[BroDane]

I am one for praying and Entreating my elders when I think I need to speak with them in private about something I dont see in scripture that was said.

I will NOT however discuss that same thing with anyone else as it causes discord.

The only time I see where the Holy Ghost leaves a dwelling is when the Dwelling is UNCLEAN. God will not dwell in a dirty cup. ( person )

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God

So, I see this as a false teaching, that is, one to cast-out God of a person... I dont know if that was spoken as it was said here, I know if it happened to me I would do as I said here as a first step..Pray, and see my pastor...

[PastorV]

Praise the Lord. My name is PastorV please allow me to share in this conversation. It appears by what was said that the Pastor did make comments out of frustration. But concerning whether or not the man of God has the authority to speak condemnation upon heretics or detractors, I feel it is possible. Jesus told the disciples whosever sins ye remit they are remitted they are remitted unto them: and whosever sins ye retain, they are retained. Jn 20:23

[Abigail4476]

An emergency board meeting was called by a pastor. Tempers flared and then...the pastor ended up saying something to the effect of...

I curse everyone of you. May the Holy Ghost leave you and never return....

A pastor is preaching from the pulpit. The people did not respond as he wanted....He then states from the pulpit that he is putting a curse on the ones who didn't go to the altar.

What would you do? Is this biblical?

I feel very confused, torn and spiritually/emotionally drained.

seeker
*Looks aghast and feels slightly sick to her stomach*

I'd like it if some of the ministers on this board responded to this one, but I'd say NO...it ISN'T Biblical...

My husband and I were once told by a minister who will go unnamed that we and our family were "possibly" going to drive off a bridge in our white car if we resigned from the church as we intended. The same minister told a friend of mine that if they left the church, her little boy's arm would be torn off in a farming accident. And I've heard much worse.

As far as I know, there is NO Scripture for this kind of manipulation. I think men who abuse their positions to manipulate people through intimidation are ungodly in the worst way and misrepresent the Apostolic faith. I believe God will hold such men accountable for their actions. There is no way I would EVER allow my family to endure that kind of treatment.

[Abigail4476]

Praise the Lord. My name is PastorV please allow me to share in this conversation. It appears by what was said that the Pastor did make comments out of frustration. But concerning whether or not the man of God has the authority to speak condemnation upon heretics or detractors, I feel it is possible. Jesus told the disciples whosever sins ye remit they are remitted they are remitted unto them: and whosever sins ye retain, they are retained. Jn 20:23
*passes out*

[BrotherBallard]

All I can say is "God have Mercy." I don't know both sides of this issue, but when men try to use the position they are in and try to use righteousness to condemn everyone, there is a problem. There is only one who is perfect!

For instance in the standards issue, if a Pastor uses standards to abuse the saints in a Church and when it's all said and done, there is blood all over the place because of standards he has implemented, he is leaning towards the place of being Judge over his congregation and not a shepherd. The Pastor is to lead people, not to drive people.

God is the only sovereign one, what authority does the pastor have to "curse" people in the first place? We are to be soul winners not soul condemners!

The Pastor needs to align himself with Grace and Mercy!

Also, on a side note, this can lead to being cultic when men try to scare people and condemn people in a congregation to do as they wish.

In His Name!!!


An emergency board meeting was called by a pastor. Tempers flared and then...the pastor ended up saying something to the effect of...

I curse everyone of you. May the Holy Ghost leave you and never return....

A pastor is preaching from the pulpit. The people did not respond as he wanted....He then states from the pulpit that he is putting a curse on the ones who didn't go to the altar.

What would you do? Is this biblical?

I feel very confused, torn and spiritually/emotionally drained.

seeker

[Abigail4476]

*passes out*
whoops...apparently this is an old thread...for some reason only the very first post showed up on my screen...now I've read all of your responses...which are better and much more thorough than mine :)

[ddc101]

I reread the first initial post and have to humbly ask," What has happened to make the pastor feel such things about the congregation?"
Possibly he is frustrated with the lack of response as a whole and its coming from his mouth.
I wonder if this particular church has a pastors prayer team because its sure needed.There needs to be some emergency Holy Ghost surgery done.
Is it possible that such stubborness exists that its really frustrating the man of God? lv sis.c

[Abigail4476]

I reread the first initial post and have to humbly ask," What has happened to make the pastor feel such things about the congregation?"
Possibly he is frustrated with the lack of response as a whole and its coming from his mouth.
I wonder if this particular church has a pastors prayer team because its sure needed.There needs to be some emergency Holy Ghost surgery done.
Is it possible that such stubborness exists that its really frustrating the man of God? lv sis.c
I don't know, but I heard one respected minister comment that men who implement these tactics are often those who never sat under anyone themselves prior to stepping into leadership roles. I've always heard that to be a good leader, you must first learn how to follow.

[ddc101]

Whew! I don't know about that but I feel for both the pastor and the congregation because there is some heavy duty frustration going on there.lv sis.c

[PastorV]

Praise the Lord, as a Pastor myself I don't believe a Pastor would labor to gain souls in his ministry and then try to curse the Holyghost out of them. I personally would have called the church to prayer and fasting, and suspended all other activities until the church was in the right direction. To rebuke a member is one thing, but to have to rebuke the whole church is a reflection of his ineffective leadership. However we must know preceding details that lead to this incident before passing judgement.

[BrotherBallard]

Well said!

In His Name!!!

Praise the Lord, as a Pastor myself I don't believe a Pastor would labor to gain souls in his ministry and then try to curse the Holyghost out of them. I personally would have called the church to prayer and fasting, and suspended all other activities until the church was in the right direction. To rebuke a member is one thing, but to have to rebuke the whole church is a reflection of his ineffective leadership. However we must know preceding details that lead to this incident before passing judgement.

[Truthseeker]

An emergency board meeting was called by a pastor. Tempers flared and then...the pastor ended up saying something to the effect of...

I curse everyone of you. May the Holy Ghost leave you and never return....

A pastor is preaching from the pulpit. The people did not respond as he wanted....He then states from the pulpit that he is putting a curse on the ones who didn't go to the altar.

What would you do? Is this biblical?

I feel very confused, torn and spiritually/emotionally drained.

seeker


Lord, have mercy!

No man can curse us.

[PastorV]

Praise the Lord, please read I Timothy 1:20 "Of whom Hymenaenus and Alexander whom I have delivered unto Satan that they may learn not blaspheme.

Also II Timothy 4:14 Alexander, the coppersmith did me much evil; the lord reward him according to his works.

Was Apostle Paul wrong??? or using manipulative tactics to control people?

[Truthseeker]

Seeker the Pastor said, ”God is going to honor every word that comes out of my mouth, because I am the Pastor....and...If the Pastor tells you the grass is blue, even if it looks green to you, you better believe your Pastor.”

You need to pray earnestly for this poor man. Also pray for the church earnestly. This man desires his congregation to surrender their minds to him. I have seen this many times. Jim Jones had his congregation to drink cyanyde that resulted in the death of almost a thousand people because those poor deluded people had surrendered their minds to him. You must NEVER do that...not to him...not to anyone...ever.

My former Pastor, G. A. Mangun, told me something when I was quite young that I have never forgotten. He said, "The body of Christ has a way of purifying itself. Don't you ever take matters in your own hands, God will handle it."

You do not need to leave your church. That church does not belong to that man. It belongs to God. No doubt you are where you are because of divine appointment. Therefore, I would ask that you give yourself to diligent prayer and even fasting for not only the church but the man also. If you leave, who will do the work that God has called you to do there?

Let the saints grown up and recognize their calling and responsibility to their church and not take flight just because things are terrible. Both you and the church will be better for the trial.

But sometimes leaving is the answer.

[Truthseeker]

Seeker,

There are many ways to handle this, most of them are the wrong way.

Remember that there are always two sides to each and every story. Go to your pastor personally and tell him that he offended you and talk to him about it. You'll both feel better afterwards, if you go in the right and humble spirit.


That doesn't always work especially with a carnal bitter controlly pastor or saint for that matter.

[Truthseeker]

Praise the Lord, please read I Timothy 1:20 "Of whom Hymenaenus and Alexander whom I have delivered unto Satan that they may learn not blaspheme.

Also II Timothy 4:14 Alexander, the coppersmith did me much evil; the lord reward him according to his works.

Was Apostle Paul wrong??? or using manipulative tactics to control people?


Doesn't seem to apply to the subject.

[BrotherBallard]

PastorV,
I think you took me out of context. Let me clarify something, I came from a Church that would make statements in like manner, a cult to say the least. What you are stating is not relevant to this topic.

In His Name!!!


Praise the Lord, please read I Timothy 1:20 "Of whom Hymenaenus and Alexander whom I have delivered unto Satan that they may learn not blaspheme.

Also II Timothy 4:14 Alexander, the coppersmith did me much evil; the lord reward him according to his works.

Was Apostle Paul wrong??? or using manipulative tactics to control people?

[NanaRenan]

*Looks aghast and feels slightly sick to her stomach*

My husband and I were once told by a minister who will go unnamed that we and our family were "possibly" going to drive off a bridge in our white car if we resigned from the church as we intended. The same minister told a friend of mine that if they left the church, her little boy's arm would be torn off in a farming accident.
Now its my time to look aghast and feel sick!!!

I think the worst I ever witnessed -- had a friend who just did NOT look good with her hair up, no matter how she tried it. She played the piano to beat the band and sang beautifully -- solos, duets and trios. Everyone loved and adored her.

A new pastor came who wanted anyone on the platform to wear their hair up. Again she went thru a round of hairdo attempts -- none of which pleased her, but she obeyed and stayed off the platfom. One night the the man leading worship service -- evidently unaware of the conflict -- said, "We haven't heard from Sister M. in a while, will she please get ready."

Faced with the choice of publically declining or being in disobedience, she went and sang. Those who knew sort of held their breath while the pastor flushed red.

When he got in the pulpit he begain to preach on disobedience and said, "The Word of God says to disobey is an abomination. And anyone who commits an abomination is practicing witchcraft." Pointing directly at Sister M. he said, "Hey!! You're a witch."

That was over 25 years ago and to my knowledge she's never set foot in a UPC church since.

Lost track of the preacher -- but I remember he didn't pastor there too long after that. Oh Dear Lord.....I pray for all the pastor's who have the truth, that the enemy can't come against them and their congregation with these spirits of manipulation cause the damage can be severe and long-lasting for those who step out of Your presence.

[PastorV]

All I am saying is that sometimes (depending on the circumstances) the man of God has a right even as Apostle Paul did to speak condemnation on those who refuse correction. So the scriptures that I brought up do indeed relate to the topic at hand. "Whether or not a Man of God can curse people"? If we say that they can't then Apostle Paul was wrong for delivering Alexander over to Satan. Apostle Paul also said concerning the brother in the Corinthian church who was sleeping with his Father's wife that he should be delivered over to Satan.

[BrotherBallard]

Why is it that there seems to me more and more of this happening? It boils down to one thing, Pride!

Several people have been hurt by Pastors, in such situations and if you were to look further into the situation you would likely see that sin was/is lying at their door.

God put me through the hardest trial of my life due to similar situations that have been discussed in this thread. What a Pastor did to me and my family is of no concern to anyone in GNC, but I could not live with bitterness that was born in my spirit due to the situation. If I were to live with it, then bitterness would eventually destroy me and my family. God mercifully brought us out! His tender hand gently led us to a true understanding of Grace and Mercy!

Honestly, when I hear of these types of stories my heart breaks, and that is not a play on words, I feel the pain of those who go through such crisis.

There is hope, there is help. Please remember this "The name of Jesus is greater and His blood is more Powerful than anything we will have to endure!!!"

In His Name!!!



Now its my time to look aghast and feel sick!!!

I think the worst I ever witnessed -- had a friend who just did NOT look good with her hair up, no matter how she tried it. She played the piano to beat the band and sang beautifully -- solos, duets and trios. Everyone loved and adored her.

A new pastor came who wanted anyone on the platform to wear their hair up. Again she went thru a round of hairdo attempts -- none of which pleased her, but she obeyed and stayed off the platfom. One night the the man leading worship service -- evidently unaware of the conflict -- said, "We haven't heard from Sister M. in a while, will she please get ready."

Faced with the choice of publically declining or being in disobedience, she went and sang. Those who knew sort of held their breath while the pastor flushed red.

When he got in the pulpit he begain to preach on disobedience and said, "The Word of God says to disobey is an abomination. And anyone who commits an abomination is practicing witchcraft." Pointing directly at Sister M. he said, "Hey!! You're a witch."

That was over 25 years ago and to my knowledge she's never set foot in a UPC church since.

Lost track of the preacher -- but I remember he didn't pastor there too long after that. Oh Dear Lord.....I pray for all the pastor's who have the truth, that the enemy can't come against them and their congregation with these spirits of manipulation cause the damage can be severe and long-lasting for those who step out of Your presence.

[Abigail4476]

All I am saying is that sometimes (depending on the circumstances) the man of God has a right even as Apostle Paul did to speak condemnation on those who refuse correction. So the scriptures that I brought up do indeed relate to the topic at hand. "Whether or not a Man of God can curse people"? If we say that they can't then Apostle Paul was wrong for delivering Alexander over to Satan. Apostle Paul also said concerning the brother in the Corinthian church who was sleeping with his Father's wife that he should be delivered over to Satan.
But don't those references refer to giving over in the same way Job was given over to Satan to be tried? Paul said, "...for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved...." and "...that he may learn not to blaspheme...." Both of these imply that the person will learn to do better through hardship, and Paul still seems to have the best interest of the person at heart. I think what we're discussing here are ministers who try to scare people with threats when anyone dares disagree with them or whenever someone tries to attend a different assembly.

I was brought up to respect my elders and I do so in obedience. I was not disrespectful to the minister who mistreated my family. But I do believe men(and women) who misuse their position in the body of Christ to their own purposes will be held accountable by Him.

I don't believe the scriptures below apply merely to laymen.

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

If it is not the will of our Father that any should perish, how would a minister find authority from God to curse someone?

[PastorV]

Very we stated! But it is hard for me to see that Alexander would be delivered to Satan for correction. I viewed it in the same sense as when the Bible says in Romans 'God gave them over to a reprobate mind. I think from both of those actions there is no return. I do agree that men or women of God can speak out of frustration and sometimes curse the people of God, Like in the case of Moses and they will be dealt with by God. But some people are given over and God would even instruct the men & women of God not to even pray for them seeing he has rejected them. Also please explain to me Jn. 20:23?

[Abigail4476]

Very we stated! But it is hard for me to see that Alexander would be delivered to Satan for correction. I viewed it in the same sense as when the Bible says in Romans 'God gave them over to a reprobate mind. I think from both of those actions there is no return. I do agree that men or women of God can speak out of frustration and sometimes curse the people of God, Like in the case of Moses and they will be dealt with by God. But some people are given over and God would even instruct the men & women of God not to even pray for them seeing he has rejected them. Also please explain to me Jn. 20:23?
Have to get back with you later...goin' out the door to Bible Class in about 30 minutes....

[survivor4christ]

I do believe that leaders can curse their flocks and have seen it happen.

It disgusts me and terrifies me all at once.

I am currently going through a situation that while I cannot say it is cursing, I will say that the leadership is trying to 'war' against me. You see, a few years back, I went to this church and b/c the pastor was not preaching the full truth (yet, had grown up in the truth) I kindly wrote him and his wife a letter revealing my heart for this matter. We both know it is the truth, we both know if he preached the truth again that the church would be healed.

I left broken hearted b/c I know there are some hungry people there who really love God, but were in bondage partly due to erroneous, or incomplete teaching. I was told that I was rebellious and causing division and that I was in error. Then a two year long battle in the spirit realm ensued; I felt the psychic prayers-curses if you will-being sent my way b/c everything the Lord told me to share with the pastors, the warning of disobeying God-was coming to pass. People were leaving the church. Much gossip and division was present and the pastors were getting weary. I still remained heartbroken, but from afar as I vowed to never step foot in that congregation again.

Then, the Lord led me back! I was of course a whole lot hesitant at first, but I know the voice of my Father, so I returned. And hell had broken loose in that house. But I can say I have noticed a more intense hunger for the things of God by the people. Yes, in every church there are gonna be some carnal folks, that is a given. But I see God pouring out His Spirit. People who never praised and worshipped God are doing so more freely. More people are being filled with the Holy GHost! God told me that I was assigned there, and even though my flesh didn't like it....I had to obey. I reread the post by my favorite elder, Elder Adoniyah,,(we miss you!), and it makes much more sense to me now. You see, if there are only ten hungry folks who want the truth in this place, God wants me here to pray. It has been a fight, saints, and I invoke your prayers. Sis. Cooper is right, you feel that thing heavy in the Spirit. But I know that I am in the will of God! It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. But I know that God told me to do this; so I am praying for the pastors, even though they may be trying to curse me. They are under the influence of a devil, so they cannot see that I am here to be a blessing. But God is in control of his church.

Much love,
Sis. Wenona

[PastorV]

Praise The Lord. Dear Sister keep fighting the good fight of Faith and lay hold on eternal life. I am in a similar situation right now, but my fight is not with the overseer, (he is a very elderly man) but rather with some of the older members of the church. I recently took my congregation in that church (by the leading of the Holyghost of course) the overseer was happy for the help and welcomed me and my congregation. He has step back and pretty much given me space to operate in my calling as a pastor, teacher & preacher. But some of the former members were not used to being taught the Word of God. Many of them are recently from other faiths and have not been properly trained in the Apostolic Faith, they're coming against me in every way they can, while he is grateful for the help that I am giving him. I'm sure they are trying to curse me if they could. But it's different when others within the church are cursing you, and when the leader of the church is trying to curse you. I do believe that if the leader is in right standing with God that they can pronouce judgement on those who are contrary and won't turn, even as Apostle Peter pronouced on Ananias and Saphirra (hope I spelled their names right) But if the leadership is coming against you, I doubt it very seriously that you will be able to grow and propser. Of course you should examine yourself first to see whether you are of the faith, and then when you are cleared, run and pray saving yourself from this froward generation.

[The Riddler]

Playing the devils advocate here, but the only scripture I see that our brother could fall back on is "What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven." I hope he remembers the same judgement he passes out will be the same judgement he receives.

I remember a preacher turning 3 young ladies over to Satan because they had to work late and missed church. I pray for people confused with this preacher's misguided attempt to stir people.

If people aren't responding the way the peacher likes, my first response is blame the preacher. Maybe he isn't communicating in a way that would elicit a response. He may have used scare tactics for so long the congregation may be slightly numbed to the manipulation. It may not always be the people's fault for not responding.