1108 recieve HG at GC...only NOW saved??

[luvmyfamily]

I guess it comes as a surprise to me that prior to the General Conference, there were at least 1108 of these faithful believers who were "unsaved" followers of Christ. How can one love Jesus with every fiber of their being, and yet still be considered "unsaved" - according to UPC doctrine?

It is sooo awesome that this many souls got filled with the Holy Ghost. I wish I and my husband had been there; maybe he would have been number 1109!

Someone help me out here. I am really, TRULY trying to understand why it is that the UPC sincerely believes that a person isn't saved until they have evidence of the Holy Ghost of tongues. Sooo many generations of Christians have lived and died out their faith, without tongues being present. Did they all go to hell, or what? And yes, I know that God is the judge of that. I believe that with all my heart. Why is it that so many believe that those kinds of things died out early on? My husband is among those that believe that...now more than ever since after seeking the Holy Ghost for a time, he never did speak in tongues. His faith and belief in that portion died. I think by now most everyone here at GNC knows that.

I don't know. Am I just in utter denial, because of my loved ones, who don't believe like this? Because of my daughter, who loves and worships Jesus like no young teen I know, even among Pentecostals, is afraid of speaking in tongues? Or is there actually something to my questions and concerns? Are "3 steps" REALLY the only ASSURANCE of salvation? Am I missing something here?

But...praise God for those 1108 souls!

[jstoblikJesus]

I can't tell you who is saved and who isn't but I can tell you that anyone that the apostles took the gospel to that was recorded and considered converted were filled with the Holy Ghost. You can't live your life worrying about the past and others even those close to you. All you can do is live your life and be as dedicated to God as you know to be. I hope this doesn't sound unkind cause it isn't my intention to be taken that way. God bless you and I will be praying for you.

[luvmyfamily]

I understand. Thanks.

[luvmyfamily]

One quick question for anyone who can answer: is it a pastor's position to say to a believer (that is, a fervent and devout believer in Jesus) whether they are saved or not? Or is that something they should keep to themselves, and just believe that the Holy Ghost will do His work on the individual as He will (i.e. through preaching heard, conviction, blessing, etc.)

[angelindesguise]

I understand. Thanks.


Acts 10: 45: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, and as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Chapter 19: 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? So just believeing is not all there is to being saved.

I was raised another way and we believed the scripture Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved and accept him in your heart, was all we had to do in order to be saved. And ask him to come into our hearts and lives. But I was misled for years. Thank God He opened my understanding so that I could understand the scriptures. And God knows when we have a hungry heart.

[Former PK]

One quick question for anyone who can answer: is it a pastor's position to say to a believer (that is, a fervent and devout believer in Jesus) whether they are saved or not? Or is that something they should keep to themselves, and just believe that the Holy Ghost will do His work on the individual as He will (i.e. through preaching heard, conviction, blessing, etc.)

There is a very fine line between kindly instructing a person that they do not have full salvation and telling them they are lost and going to hell. If the person is sincere and trying they should be encouraged that there is more for them.

It is a serious breach for anyone, preacher or layman to ever tell someone they got the Holy Ghost, if the person is not sure on their own. It hinders the birth process and you end up with a half born baby, that in many cases will die.

The other side of the coin is more difficult, it is universal in our realm of fellowship to believe that without speaking in tounges the person has yet to be filled with the Holy Ghost. It is almost like going to the gas station and saying that you filled the tank without the nozzle shutting off and you clicking is a couple of times. There has to be some indicator. The amount on the pump assumes you know the amount that was present and how much the tank holds. So that can have errors. The gauge could be used but that assumes it is accurate. So there is only one sure way to make sure the tank is as full as possible. Now, we could debate if a person is full of the holy ghost without speaking in tounges, but it is a sure gauge.

The other point is that many "Chiristians" don't see or know the difference between Speaking in tongues and the Gift of tongues. They are not the same thing.

[searching]

I guess it comes as a surprise to me that prior to the General Conference, there were at least 1108 of these faithful believers who were "unsaved" followers of Christ. How can one love Jesus with every fiber of their being, and yet still be considered "unsaved" - according to UPC doctrine?

It is sooo awesome that this many souls got filled with the Holy Ghost. I wish I and my husband had been there; maybe he would have been number 1109!

Someone help me out here. I am really, TRULY trying to understand why it is that the UPC sincerely believes that a person isn't saved until they have evidence of the Holy Ghost of tongues. Sooo many generations of Christians have lived and died out their faith, without tongues being present. Did they all go to hell, or what? And yes, I know that God is the judge of that. I believe that with all my heart. Why is it that so many believe that those kinds of things died out early on? My husband is among those that believe that...now more than ever since after seeking the Holy Ghost for a time, he never did speak in tongues. His faith and belief in that portion died. I think by now most everyone here at GNC knows that.

I don't know. Am I just in utter denial, because of my loved ones, who don't believe like this? Because of my daughter, who loves and worships Jesus like no young teen I know, even among Pentecostals, is afraid of speaking in tongues? Or is there actually something to my questions and concerns? Are "3 steps" REALLY the only ASSURANCE of salvation? Am I missing something here?

But...praise God for those 1108 souls!

When a mother goes into labor to have her baby, there are steps that need to take place in order for her to have a living child. That child is living as it's inside her, but when it's born, it has to breathe on it's own. It won't live if it doesn't.

The Holy Ghost is God's breath in us. We can have faith and believe and even be baptised, but we've only been taken out of the womb, so to speak. But we haven't yet breathed.

Do we give birth and say, there, my baby is born and healthy, or do we wait to hear that first cry to know our baby is alive? And the joy we feel inside to know that baby is a breathing, living soul!

I know there are instances where people didn't complete 'the steps' before going out into eternity, but that is for God to decide. But we, the living, can't dwell on the 'what ifs' for when we die. It'll be too late for us then.

This is my take on it.

[luvmyfamily]

Well all I know is, that as long as we are at our current church (which is a non-denominational, teaching sort of church), our family will be miserable. And there is NO way everybody will get the teaching they need regarding being alive through what the REAL Holy Ghost can bring. Their belief about the Holy Ghost is NOT the same as what the Bible actually says. And I am trapped. Because DH sincerely believes that the way Pentecostals believe and worship is not Biblical, and since he wants to keep us all together as a family in church, he will not let me and the girls go to the Pentecostal church.

Academically, this church we attend is good. It teaches the Word. But spiritually, it grieves my spirit. And it grieves the Holy Spirit. It's a "friendly" church, with lots of "good teaching". It draws the more scholarly, academic crowd because they want teaching and not necessarily spiritual stuff. Never once have I seen nor heard about anybody actually being saved, or baptized. I know it happens (according to how they believe about salvation). My husband is quite an academic, as well. He loves to study. he loves sitting under the teachings of our pastor. But it makes me sick, and it makes the children sick. I am sorry, but going through and teaching on and on and on for months about the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem will NOT convict people to turn from their sins, or bring Jesus completely into their hearts. And as interesting as his point of view on the subject is, and no matter how passionate he is about it, what good does it do to a person who does not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour? Not once have I heard solid NT teaching, except occasionally a passage or two as a reference! Very few people are familiar with the stories and principles in the NT, aside from what is basically in the Gospels. If you REALLY want to know, you have to learn for yourself. The passion of the pastor makes people believe that everything he talks about is completely true and that nothing else matters, because he is such a brilliant man (how could I ever compare to this guy? He knows fluent Greek and Hebrew, for crying out loud!)

Maybe I paint a worse picture than it really is, but I am fed up with it. I have kept my mind open long enough, just like my husband asked. And well, it ain't happening. My spirit is hungry. The Holy Ghost dwells in me. He knows this isn't how it is supposed to be. No amount of passion I have when I get up there on the platform with my singing will change others, because I have to FORCE myself to worship!! I love God so much, and it is very sad when I, a singer, have to FORCE myself to worship Him because there is no life in this place. never in my Christian walk have I had to do this, no matter what kind of church I was in. At home, I am more free to worship as I please, and I do. It's like a huge relief. I can put in one of my favorite CDs, close my eyes, raise my hands, dance, clap, whatever. I can really worship freely. God is so good, and it is too bad that hundreds of people's eyes have been blinded. And there is nothing I can do about it. The pastor, for one, has bashed Pentecostals before (I was in the room, when he did, fuming) and so do some of the adult Sunday School teachers. They laugh about it, but I was there, sitting in my seat, fuming through it all, but keeping my silence. What they teach about us is simply untrue. I am sure this goes on in other kinds of churches, as well.

But I am trapped.

[angelindesguise]

Well all I know is, that as long as we are at our current church (which is a non-denominational, teaching sort of church), our family will be miserable. And there is NO way everybody will get the teaching they need regarding being alive through what the REAL Holy Ghost can bring. Their belief about the Holy Ghost is NOT the same as what the Bible actually says. And I am trapped. Because DH sincerely believes that the way Pentecostals believe and worship is not Biblical, and since he wants to keep us all together as a family in church, he will not let me and the girls go to the Pentecostal church.

Academically, this church we attend is good. It teaches the Word. But spiritually, it grieves my spirit. And it grieves the Holy Spirit. It's a "friendly" church, with lots of "good teaching". It draws the more scholarly, academic crowd because they want teaching and not necessarily spiritual stuff. Never once have I seen nor heard about anybody actually being saved, or baptized. I know it happens (according to how they believe about salvation). My husband is quite an academic, as well. He loves to study. he loves sitting under the teachings of our pastor. But it makes me sick, and it makes the children sick. I am sorry, but going through and teaching on and on and on for months about the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem will NOT convict people to turn from their sins, or bring Jesus completely into their hearts. And as interesting as his point of view on the subject is, and no matter how passionate he is about it, what good does it do to a person who does not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour? Not once have I heard solid NT teaching, except occasionally a passage or two as a reference! Very few people are familiar with the stories and principles in the NT, aside from what is basically in the Gospels. If you REALLY want to know, you have to learn for yourself. The passion of the pastor makes people believe that everything he talks about is completely true and that nothing else matters, because he is such a brilliant man (how could I ever compare to this guy? He knows fluent Greek and Hebrew, for crying out loud!)

Maybe I paint a worse picture than it really is, but I am fed up with it. I have kept my mind open long enough, just like my husband asked. And well, it ain't happening. My spirit is hungry. The Holy Ghost dwells in me. He knows this isn't how it is supposed to be. No amount of passion I have when I get up there on the platform with my singing will change others, because I have to FORCE myself to worship!! I love God so much, and it is
very sad when I, a singer, have to FORCE myself to worship Him because there is no life in this place. never in my Christian walk have I had to do this, no matter what kind of church I was in. At home, I am more free to worship as I please, and I do. It's like a huge relief. I can put in one of my favorite CDs, close my eyes, raise my hands, dance, clap, whatever. I can really worship freely. God is so good, and it is too bad that hundreds of people's eyes have been blinded. And there is nothing I can do about it. The pastor, for one, has bashed Pentecostals before (I was in the room, when he did, fuming) and so do some of the adult Sunday School teachers. They laugh about it, but I was there, sitting in my seat, fuming through it all, but keeping my silence. What they teach about us is simply untrue. I am sure this goes on in other kinds of churches, as well.

But I am trapped.


People can be so blind to the simple plan of salvation. Because for years I did not understand. My step mom is AOG and since she married my dad she goes to the Baptist church with him, which is dead and full of drybones. But she remains AOG in her heart. What I a getting at is, she knows her Bible, she knows the OT history, and she can trip me up with her knowledge of the Bible, but tho she knows so much, she does not know the simple plan of salvation. And of course they believe in the trinity. So she thinks she is wiser than I, so I am not able to win her scriptually speaking because I do not know Bible history and Geneology and such. I came into this truth late and life, and tho' I know the plan of salvation and how you are suppose to live in order to please God, I am not a Bible scholar. But I know what I know to be true. Our only hope is to live a life before tham and pray that God will open their understanding of the scriptures.

[Former PK]

I guess it comes as a surprise to me that prior to the General Conference, there were at least 1108 of these faithful believers who were "unsaved" followers of Christ. How can one love Jesus with every fiber of their being, and yet still be considered "unsaved" - according to UPC doctrine?



I spoke to a person who was at GC and this came up. As he explained there was a major outreach in Columbus prior to the GC. These 1100 to 1800 ( I have heard two different numbers.) were unchurched or at least new to Pentecost.

[luvmyfamily]

I spoke to a person who was at GC and this came up. As he explained there was a major outreach in Columbus prior to the GC. These 1100 to 1800 ( I have heard two different numbers.) were unchurched or at least new to Pentecost.

Ah, i see. Thank you for clearing this up. That makes quite a lot more sense.

[coadie]

I often wondered who was the one who counted all those people, and how did they know they were filled with the Holy Spirit? Maybe that is what those guys running up and down the isles are really doing.. :angel:


There is something sneaking going on here. :banana:
Luke started giving numbers when people gathered and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

12
120
3,000

Angels rejoice in heaven when one new sinner repents.

[coadie]

Game? Numbers Game?


Your comment:
Because if you do you will see that there is no way the numbers in all the Oneness churches is not even close enough to reach the world, let alone the US.

Please explain what you are trying to tell us.

[luvmyfamily]

Are you sure you want to get in numbers game Coadie? Because if you do you will see that there is no way the numbers in all the Oneness churches is not even close enough to reach the world, let alone the US.

Oh no? Who was it that preached in Acts 2? Peter. Through only ONE Holy Ghost filled person, GOD reached 3000 souls. The 119 who were with him that day were like in the background, speaking whatever. We don't know exactly. But it was Peter who preached the sermon. Through Paul, thousands in the Roman empire came to Christ and recieved the Holy Ghost.

Does it matter when there are small numbers? Absolutely not. It is the impact those small numbers make that counts. The Bible itself is evidence that God can use a single person to reach thousands of people. And the numbers multiply. The early church started out small, only 120...in one day more than 3000 were added...by the time John died there were countless of dozens of thousands of Christians, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe even a couple million, I don't know. The church continued to grow steadily, until probably the dark ages maybe. There wasn't much evangelistic work again until probably the 1600s, then after a while it died down again, then revived again in the late 1800s with explosive force. Since then we have lived in a time of active mission work around the world. People have once again started devouring their Bibles, studying His every word.

Where did God grow Israel? It wasn't in their homeland. It was in Egypt. He told that outright to Abraham, I think before Isaac was even born (I do not at the moment have my Bible in front of me so correct my timeline if I am wrong). God used an ungodly place to grow God's people. Israel is small...the number of Jews in this world is small...but they impact this world like nothing else does. There is no logical reason for why this is...only God. Same with the church. Numbers don't matter. God will use small numbers to make a big impact on the world. It isn't by our might. It's by the power of the Holy Ghost. It's only one way that He shows He is God. ANd He has grown the church through whatever means He deems necessary.

[luvmyfamily]

Let me put it a different way. Where in the world has the Oneness doctrine not been reached? The list is huge!

Have you ever heard of "operation World?"

Did you know there are Oneness missionaries all over the world?
The list is huge for all organizations. Its a big world, and many must believe in secret, or simply be living witnesses where the name of Jesus is outlawed.

In places where people must gather in secret, with no pastor, or people who have only the Bible to depend on for their doctrine, I am rather sure that they have not heard of any "trinity" doctrine...not until men from the outside come to them and start preaching it. Then it becomes confusing. My daughter, born and raised in a Muslim country, attended a small house church across the street from her orphanage. It was of no particular denomination. She believed in "Iesus". When she first came to America, I still believed in the trinity, and tried to explain trinity to her. That was totally confusing to her. She knew Jesus was God...she hadn't heard or been taught anything about trinity concepts. When we started going to an Apostolic church, everything made perfect sense to her again, for it is Jesus she worships, not a confusing "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost".

Oneness teaching is all over the world, and it is NOT a new thing for Christians in places like Asia and Africa. They often wonder why westerners believe the way they do about who God is.

[coadie]

Did you know there are Oneness missionaries all over the world?
The list is huge for all organizations. Its a big world, and many must believe in secret, or simply be living witnesses where the name of Jesus is outlawed.

In places where people must gather in secret, with no pastor, or people who have only the Bible to depend on for their doctrine, I am rather sure that they have not heard of any "trinity" doctrine...not until men from the outside come to them and start preaching it. Then it becomes confusing. My daughter, born and raised in a Muslim country, attended a small house church across the street from her orphanage. It was of no particular denomination. She believed in "Iesus". When she first came to America, I still believed in the trinity, and tried to explain trinity to her. That was totally confusing to her. She knew Jesus was God...she hadn't heard or been taught anything about trinity concepts. When we started going to an Apostolic church, everything made perfect sense to her again, for it is Jesus she worships, not a confusing "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost".

Oneness teaching is all over the world, and it is NOT a new thing for Christians in places like Asia and Africa. They often wonder why westerners believe the way they do about who God is.

The Pentecostal preachers are the boldest and the first to get arrested in China. The dead churches really don't have as many missionaries get in trouble. We will have a Holy Ghost revival in the end times.

[Donny Cage]

The Pentecostal preachers are the boldest and the first to get arrested in China. The dead churches really don't have as many missionaries get in trouble. We will have a Holy Ghost revival in the end times.

I don't think Michael has any idea what the Apostolic church is actually doing. I read another post of his that said something similar, as if it's only the trinitarians working throughout the world, and the oneness are at home on our keyboards. Nothing can be farther from the truth. It's comments like these that cause him to lose much credibility. The true gospel is being spread all throughout the earth, yes even through persecution.

All around the world, there are thousands upon THOUSANDS receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in Jesus' name. The Lord is adding to the church daily, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Amen.

[Webmaster]

its not worth the bandwidth.

It's not worth you getting banned, either. Watch your attitude.

[coadie]

I don't think Michael has any idea what the Apostolic church is actually doing. I read another post of his that said something similar, as if it's only the trinitarians working throughout the world, and the oneness are at home on our keyboards. Nothing can be farther from the truth. It's comments like these that cause him to lose much credibility. The true gospel is being spread all throughout the earth, yes even through persecution.

All around the world, there are thousands upon THOUSANDS receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in Jesus' name. The Lord is adding to the church daily, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Amen.

From my observation in my family we have missionaries on several continents as we have relatives. We Chose how far to drift from the original gospel. Underground church movements in Asia are very far from learning trinitarian buzzwords and Roman Catholic influenced traditions and doctrines. I know of bible studies in Mandarin that are being duplicated very discreetley and thousands are getting help but they can get it at home. Microsoft has been a tool to open access to millions. A bible cd doesn't look like a bible.

We all are accurately aware that believing is a step that proceeds baptism of the Holy Ghost. All of US know we have something we did not have before. It is far too dangerous to live in China without the Power of the Holy Ghost.

[luvmyfamily]

From my observation in my family we have missionaries on several continents as we have relatives. We Chose how far to drift from the original gospel. Underground church movements in Asia are very far from learning trinitarian buzzwords and Roman Catholic influenced traditions and doctrines. I know of bible studies in Mandarin that are being duplicated very discreetley and thousands are getting help but they can get it at home. Microsoft has been a tool to open access to millions. A bible cd doesn't look like a bible.

We all are accurately aware that believing is a step that proceeds baptism of the Holy Ghost. All of US know we have something we did not have before. It is far too dangerous to live in China without the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Asia to me is probably one of the most interesting places in regards to mission work and the work of the Holy Ghost. Missionaries very often are forced to work "underground" if they are to get anything accomplished. This is not only in China, but all over Asia. In Kazakhstan, where we went and are hoping to go to again, one does not go as a missionary. It is not legal. They go as teachers, pastors, etc. Church work and evangelism is carefully watched by the government. In fact, outright evangelism is restricted by law (whether it be Christian or Muslim, as they are officialy anti-terror). But groups of believers pop up all over the place, often unregistered (and subsequently arrested), so we do not know the actual numbers of souls saved and under cover missionaries and house churches. We do not know exactly how many are put in jail or deported for proclaiming the gospel in unauthorized ways. Like I said, the word "missionary" is a forbidden word. You do NOT use it in correspondence, even in email to one whom you know that is. They use code words to get various messages across to other believers (much like the Jesus fish drawn in the dirt of old days).

There are people like this all over Asia, where, even when there are authorized churches, these are limited in what they preach. It is the souls worshipping underground, unauthorized by their government, that are the most on fire for God...it is these same souls which cannot be officially numbered. If a native Kazakh is found to have converted to Christianity, they are very often considered dead by their family. It is a huge risk they have to take, as they are an extremely family-oriented type of people. Again, this is similar thinking in many parts of Asia...you convert to Christianity, you are dead to your family. You try explaining a trinity to a Muslim, or a new convert from Islam, they call you nuts. They know very well there are not 3, nor 3 in 1. To them the concept is absurd...why is that something they should believe, when they know very well that the Bible says one God? You don't convert a muslim through trinity teaching. Nor a hindu, as they believe in a plethora of gods, as it is and it would just be adding on to that. Nor a buddhist or believer in Confucious...it's not logical.

If a person comes to Christ and gets the Holy Ghost through just reading the Bible, no external influence, and they come to the conclusion on their own of something LIKE a threeness of one God, I won't say they aren't saved. They probably won't call God a trinity, either, if their teaching comes only from the Bible...at least, not until a trinitarian comes along and teaches this word to them to further explain that threeness. There is no reason to reach peoples who don't know God at all with anything like trinity. Their understanding must be reached through certain perceptions of culture and mind that they already have. Take the people who Nate Saint and his fellow missionaries were trying to reach...the wives taught them God through their understanding of a great "Waongoni" (or something like that) which they understood to be the supreme God. Also daring missionaries in Siberia who preach to dangerous indigenous tribes there...they teach God through their understanding of the supreme God which deserted them (through the first man's sin, therefore they must try to please the devils), and taught that this God actually loves them, and has not deserted them and that the worship of these devils is not right, that God wants them back, that He sent someone to reconcile them back to Him. Both of these instances are kind of like Paul's discovery on Mars' Hill...he preached to them concerning this unknown God.

Preaching God to pagans is a very delicate thing...yet, most have in their religion's history somewhere some supreme, almighty God, who created all things, who they dare not approach or talk about. He's too powerful. His wrath is too great. But most often they don't know that there was a plan for reconciliation back to this God...through the Bible, we know that only the Jews were given this revelation, and it is through the Jews' bloodline that this reconciliation comes.

[RevDWW]

Rom 8:10 - Rom 8:11 (KJV) 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

No Spirit infilling, no being raised from the dead!

[mizpeh]

Well all I know is, that as long as we are at our current church (which is a non-denominational, teaching sort of church), our family will be miserable. And there is NO way everybody will get the teaching they need regarding being alive through what the REAL Holy Ghost can bring. Their belief about the Holy Ghost is NOT the same as what the Bible actually says. And I am trapped. Because DH sincerely believes that the way Pentecostals believe and worship is not Biblical, and since he wants to keep us all together as a family in church, he will not let me and the girls go to the Pentecostal church.

Academically, this church we attend is good. It teaches the Word. But spiritually, it grieves my spirit. And it grieves the Holy Spirit. It's a "friendly" church, with lots of "good teaching". It draws the more scholarly, academic crowd because they want teaching and not necessarily spiritual stuff. Never once have I seen nor heard about anybody actually being saved, or baptized. I know it happens (according to how they believe about salvation). My husband is quite an academic, as well. He loves to study. he loves sitting under the teachings of our pastor. But it makes me sick, and it makes the children sick. I am sorry, but going through and teaching on and on and on for months about the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem will NOT convict people to turn from their sins, or bring Jesus completely into their hearts. And as interesting as his point of view on the subject is, and no matter how passionate he is about it, what good does it do to a person who does not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour? Not once have I heard solid NT teaching, except occasionally a passage or two as a reference! Very few people are familiar with the stories and principles in the NT, aside from what is basically in the Gospels. If you REALLY want to know, you have to learn for yourself. The passion of the pastor makes people believe that everything he talks about is completely true and that nothing else matters, because he is such a brilliant man (how could I ever compare to this guy? He knows fluent Greek and Hebrew, for crying out loud!)

Maybe I paint a worse picture than it really is, but I am fed up with it. I have kept my mind open long enough, just like my husband asked. And well, it ain't happening. My spirit is hungry. The Holy Ghost dwells in me. He knows this isn't how it is supposed to be. No amount of passion I have when I get up there on the platform with my singing will change others, because I have to FORCE myself to worship!! I love God so much, and it is very sad when I, a singer, have to FORCE myself to worship Him because there is no life in this place. never in my Christian walk have I had to do this, no matter what kind of church I was in. At home, I am more free to worship as I please, and I do. It's like a huge relief. I can put in one of my favorite CDs, close my eyes, raise my hands, dance, clap, whatever. I can really worship freely. God is so good, and it is too bad that hundreds of people's eyes have been blinded. And there is nothing I can do about it. The pastor, for one, has bashed Pentecostals before (I was in the room, when he did, fuming) and so do some of the adult Sunday School teachers. They laugh about it, but I was there, sitting in my seat, fuming through it all, but keeping my silence. What they teach about us is simply untrue. I am sure this goes on in other kinds of churches, as well.

But I am trapped.

It won't be like this always. God won't allow it. But until then learn to be content in whatever state you are in. Trust in God. I went through some very difficult things with family when I became a Christian but God brought me through the fire. He will do the same for you.

Praying for you and yours,
Mizpeh

[fwhilton]

I guess it comes as a surprise to me that prior to the General Conference, there were at least 1108 of these faithful believers who were "unsaved" followers of Christ. How can one love Jesus with every fiber of their being, and yet still be considered "unsaved" - according to UPC doctrine?

It is sooo awesome that this many souls got filled with the Holy Ghost. I wish I and my husband had been there; maybe he would have been number 1109!

Someone help me out here. I am really, TRULY trying to understand why it is that the UPC sincerely believes that a person isn't saved until they have evidence of the Holy Ghost of tongues. Sooo many generations of Christians have lived and died out their faith, without tongues being present. Did they all go to hell, or what? And yes, I know that God is the judge of that. I believe that with all my heart. Why is it that so many believe that those kinds of things died out early on? My husband is among those that believe that...now more than ever since after seeking the Holy Ghost for a time, he never did speak in tongues. His faith and belief in that portion died. I think by now most everyone here at GNC knows that.

I don't know. Am I just in utter denial, because of my loved ones, who don't believe like this? Because of my daughter, who loves and worships Jesus like no young teen I know, even among Pentecostals, is afraid of speaking in tongues? Or is there actually something to my questions and concerns? Are "3 steps" REALLY the only ASSURANCE of salvation? Am I missing something here?

But...praise God for those 1108 souls!

Not sure if you have had your question answered or not.

Read Acts 10...

Cornelius believed in God, gave alms, fasted etc...

But, yet He had to have the gospel preached to him as well. He heard the word and the Holy Ghost fell on him as well as others that were there.

They spoke in tongues and then were COMMANDED to be baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:44-48)

UPC, myself and other Apostolics all concurr that until a person fulfills the plan of salvation as taught by Jesus himself (John 3:5, Mat 28:19-20, Mark 16:15-17, Acts 2:38) that they are not saved according to scripture.

When Jesus died on the cross a new testament became in effect. No longer does "just believing" save a person. Believing only was up until the death of Jesus.

After that... Jesus taught that we MUST be born of the water (water baptism) and OF THE SPIRIT (holy ghost baptism).

And everyone knows that the evidence that a person has been filled with the Holy Ghost is the sign that they speak in tongues as the spirit gives the utterance.

When presenting the message of salvation to somebody who "believes", but has not fullfiled all the Bible salvation commands. We must not discount their belief in God...

Believing on the Lord is part of the first steps... It doesn't end there and we must present this in a loving and uncondemning manner.

We have to help them see that without...

1) Water baptism, thier sins are not washed away yet.
2) Spirit baptism, they are not sealed by God and can not be resurrected by the Holy Ghost, and that they are none of his without the Holy Ghost, and they recieve a new nature (this is a more complex thing to explain to them -- I am not getting into that here)

Because of deep traditional views of "just believe on the Lord", before approaching someone we must pray that God opens their eyes to this life changing truth!!!

:)

[apostolictexas]

Well all I know is, that as long as we are at our current church (which is a non-denominational, teaching sort of church), our family will be miserable. And there is NO way everybody will get the teaching they need regarding being alive through what the REAL Holy Ghost can bring. Their belief about the Holy Ghost is NOT the same as what the Bible actually says. And I am trapped. Because DH sincerely believes that the way Pentecostals believe and worship is not Biblical, and since he wants to keep us all together as a family in church, he will not let me and the girls go to the Pentecostal church.

Academically, this church we attend is good. It teaches the Word. But spiritually, it grieves my spirit. And it grieves the Holy Spirit. It's a "friendly" church, with lots of "good teaching". It draws the more scholarly, academic crowd because they want teaching and not necessarily spiritual stuff. Never once have I seen nor heard about anybody actually being saved, or baptized. I know it happens (according to how they believe about salvation). My husband is quite an academic, as well. He loves to study. he loves sitting under the teachings of our pastor. But it makes me sick, and it makes the children sick. I am sorry, but going through and teaching on and on and on for months about the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem will NOT convict people to turn from their sins, or bring Jesus completely into their hearts. And as interesting as his point of view on the subject is, and no matter how passionate he is about it, what good does it do to a person who does not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour? Not once have I heard solid NT teaching, except occasionally a passage or two as a reference! Very few people are familiar with the stories and principles in the NT, aside from what is basically in the Gospels. If you REALLY want to know, you have to learn for yourself. The passion of the pastor makes people believe that everything he talks about is completely true and that nothing else matters, because he is such a brilliant man (how could I ever compare to this guy? He knows fluent Greek and Hebrew, for crying out loud!)

Maybe I paint a worse picture than it really is, but I am fed up with it. I have kept my mind open long enough, just like my husband asked. And well, it ain't happening. My spirit is hungry. The Holy Ghost dwells in me. He knows this isn't how it is supposed to be. No amount of passion I have when I get up there on the platform with my singing will change others, because I have to FORCE myself to worship!! I love God so much, and it is very sad when I, a singer, have to FORCE myself to worship Him because there is no life in this place. never in my Christian walk have I had to do this, no matter what kind of church I was in. At home, I am more free to worship as I please, and I do. It's like a huge relief. I can put in one of my favorite CDs, close my eyes, raise my hands, dance, clap, whatever. I can really worship freely. God is so good, and it is too bad that hundreds of people's eyes have been blinded. And there is nothing I can do about it. The pastor, for one, has bashed Pentecostals before (I was in the room, when he did, fuming) and so do some of the adult Sunday School teachers. They laugh about it, but I was there, sitting in my seat, fuming through it all, but keeping my silence. What they teach about us is simply untrue. I am sure this goes on in other kinds of churches, as well.

But I am trapped.

Where do husbands get thr right o not allow their wives to NOT visit or worship the church of their choice? This sounds controlling which we are called to not do..I cannot prevetn my wife from attending whereever she may be..even if one day she desires to convert another way..God forbid..I am just saying..She is her own person..I am her husband..not her ruler..I am sorry to hear you are so miserable

[Pressing-On]

When a mother goes into labor to have her baby, there are steps that need to take place in order for her to have a living child. That child is living as it's inside her, but when it's born, it has to breathe on it's own. It won't live if it doesn't.

The Holy Ghost is God's breath in us. We can have faith and believe and even be baptised, but we've only been taken out of the womb, so to speak. But we haven't yet breathed.

Do we give birth and say, there, my baby is born and healthy, or do we wait to hear that first cry to know our baby is alive? And the joy we feel inside to know that baby is a breathing, living soul!

I know there are instances where people didn't complete 'the steps' before going out into eternity, but that is for God to decide. But we, the living, can't dwell on the 'what ifs' for when we die. It'll be too late for us then.

This is my take on it.
Good post, Searching!

[Evangelist Paul]

Where do husbands get thr right o not allow their wives to NOT visit or worship the church of their choice? This sounds controlling which we are called to not do..I cannot prevetn my wife from attending whereever she may be..even if one day she desires to convert another way..God forbid..I am just saying..She is her own person..I am her husband..not her ruler..I am sorry to hear you are so miserable

I think they get it from the Bible. You know it does say for the wife to submit to the husband and some people think that means to literally submit.

[luvmyfamily]

I think they get it from the Bible. You know it does say for the wife to submit to the husband and some people think that means to literally submit.

My point exactly. As I said before, my husband wants to keep the family together in worship. It won't do for us to be in different places...this indicates disunity in the husband and wife, who are supposed to be one. It is a matter of my husband being the head of this family, making the ultimate decisions, and his family submitting to those decisions. The responsibility of his decisions is on HIS shoulders, and not mine. He is not being controlling. He is acting out his part as a Bible-believing husband, who happens not to agree with the way Apostolics present the plan of salvation and thinks there is too much control and legalism within the UPC organization.

[ddc101]

Well all I know is, that as long as we are at our current church (which is a non-denominational, teaching sort of church), our family will be miserable. And there is NO way everybody will get the teaching they need regarding being alive through what the REAL Holy Ghost can bring. Their belief about the Holy Ghost is NOT the same as what the Bible actually says. And I am trapped. Because DH sincerely believes that the way Pentecostals believe and worship is not Biblical, and since he wants to keep us all together as a family in church, he will not let me and the girls go to the Pentecostal church.

Academically, this church we attend is good. It teaches the Word. But spiritually, it grieves my spirit. And it grieves the Holy Spirit. It's a "friendly" church, with lots of "good teaching". It draws the more scholarly, academic crowd because they want teaching and not necessarily spiritual stuff. Never once have I seen nor heard about anybody actually being saved, or baptized. I know it happens (according to how they believe about salvation). My husband is quite an academic, as well. He loves to study. he loves sitting under the teachings of our pastor. But it makes me sick, and it makes the children sick. I am sorry, but going through and teaching on and on and on for months about the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem will NOT convict people to turn from their sins, or bring Jesus completely into their hearts. And as interesting as his point of view on the subject is, and no matter how passionate he is about it, what good does it do to a person who does not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour? Not once have I heard solid NT teaching, except occasionally a passage or two as a reference! Very few people are familiar with the stories and principles in the NT, aside from what is basically in the Gospels. If you REALLY want to know, you have to learn for yourself. The passion of the pastor makes people believe that everything he talks about is completely true and that nothing else matters, because he is such a brilliant man (how could I ever compare to this guy? He knows fluent Greek and Hebrew, for crying out loud!)

Maybe I paint a worse picture than it really is, but I am fed up with it. I have kept my mind open long enough, just like my husband asked. And well, it ain't happening. My spirit is hungry. The Holy Ghost dwells in me. He knows this isn't how it is supposed to be. No amount of passion I have when I get up there on the platform with my singing will change others, because I have to FORCE myself to worship!! I love God so much, and it is very sad when I, a singer, have to FORCE myself to worship Him because there is no life in this place. never in my Christian walk have I had to do this, no matter what kind of church I was in. At home, I am more free to worship as I please, and I do. It's like a huge relief. I can put in one of my favorite CDs, close my eyes, raise my hands, dance, clap, whatever. I can really worship freely. God is so good, and it is too bad that hundreds of people's eyes have been blinded. And there is nothing I can do about it. The pastor, for one, has bashed Pentecostals before (I was in the room, when he did, fuming) and so do some of the adult Sunday School teachers. They laugh about it, but I was there, sitting in my seat, fuming through it all, but keeping my silence. What they teach about us is simply untrue. I am sure this goes on in other kinds of churches, as well.

But I am trapped.

You could come on over to Paltalk with Sister Phyllis,Mizpah and myself and study Greek and later Hebrew.
Don't feel that you are less than this pastor or cannot compete.Jesus and the Apostles put up with Pharrases who were very learned men.Not having genuine biblical based salvation is not intelligence.Its not wise.Pray for this pastor and pray God will deliver you.Have you asked God to deliver you from this situation sister? I need to ask if you were in a truth teaching church when you received salvation.If you were then why not now?
lv sis.c
pm me if you are uncomfortable speaking about this openly.

[GMB]

Praise the Lord and I hope that all is well with everyone.

I have read heard and talked lately with many people about salvation in God's word. The most common response is,"Is everyone else going to hell if they are not UPC?"

UPC has NOTHING to do with it. Yet they will tell me (for example) "I was born a Baptist and I'll die a baptist."

Question: When the church was born in the book of Acts, what denomination or organization was it born in?

Answer: NONE

There were no denominations or organizations in that day. But the doctrine one, and the Repentance, Water Baptism in the name of Jesus, and recieving the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking in tongues was their doctrine.

This is the GOSPEL. Death, Burial, and ressurection.

While there are many denominations and organizations there is only ONE GOSPEL.

That is also another response to the "trinity". Though they try to prove their doctrine as far back as Genisis it is still false doctrine. It wasn't introduced until 325 A.D. Until then there was only the Acts2:38 message because it and still is the GOSPEL in original forum.

I belonged to a church that taught otherwise and almost died in sin 3 times. I know by God's GOSPEL that I had not obey it and would have went to a devils hell. But glory to God, He allowed me another chance to obey the GOSPEL and recieve salvation.

The Acts 2:38 message is not the UPC way it is God's way. Therefore I am doing all that I can to walk in the path of His Word. I am not following the UPC. But I do follow the doctrine that is preached, because it is not a man made doctrine of rules and legislative legalism, but it represents God's way of salvation and holiness.

It is not hard to see, find or live if we are willing to submit more and more to God's Word.

[Anna~]

I guess it comes as a surprise to me that prior to the General Conference, there were at least 1108 of these faithful believers who were "unsaved" followers of Christ. How can one love Jesus with every fiber of their being, and yet still be considered "unsaved" - according to UPC doctrine?

It is sooo awesome that this many souls got filled with the Holy Ghost. I wish I and my husband had been there; maybe he would have been number 1109!

Someone help me out here. I am really, TRULY trying to understand why it is that the UPC sincerely believes that a person isn't saved until they have evidence of the Holy Ghost of tongues. Sooo many generations of Christians have lived and died out their faith, without tongues being present. Did they all go to hell, or what? And yes, I know that God is the judge of that. I believe that with all my heart. Why is it that so many believe that those kinds of things died out early on? My husband is among those that believe that...now more than ever since after seeking the Holy Ghost for a time, he never did speak in tongues. His faith and belief in that portion died. I think by now most everyone here at GNC knows that.

I don't know. Am I just in utter denial, because of my loved ones, who don't believe like this? Because of my daughter, who loves and worships Jesus like no young teen I know, even among Pentecostals, is afraid of speaking in tongues? Or is there actually something to my questions and concerns? Are "3 steps" REALLY the only ASSURANCE of salvation? Am I missing something here?

But...praise God for those 1108 souls!



Comes down to this, whom do you place your trust in? UPC or Gods Word? I’d stick with the word, after all God word is correct, no matter how much spin and play man try to add or take from it.

[Anna~]

My point exactly. As I said before, my husband wants to keep the family together in worship. It won't do for us to be in different places...this indicates disunity in the husband and wife, who are supposed to be one.

Very true! You are under your husband, and should obey and respect his rules as the head.

He is acting out his part as a Bible-believing husband, who happens not to agree with the way Apostolics present the plan of salvation and thinks there is too much control and legalism within the UPC organization.

I must say I agree with your husband, on the legalism. The gospel is not hard, nor is it of works, the bible very clear. I'll stop here....;)

[GMB]

There IS NO LEGALISM in the UPC stance of holiness nor salvation.

As far luvfamily. I respect your submission to your husband. God will bless you for that. But lets say your husband says that "this family is not gonna live according to the Bible only anymore. For I found revalation in the Book of Morman." Would you still submit to that.

It is one thing to be submissive and honor ones spouse( for the Biblealso says to submit one to another). But if one is leading another into a way that contradicts the Bible way of salvation then I would not suggest submiting to that.

Seek ye the kingdom of God FIRST, and His RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all these things will be given unto you.

I guess what I am trying to say is if it came down to disobeying God's plan of salvation to be obedient to my spouse, then God will win every time.

Before my wife and I got married she told me, "I want to make one thing clear. I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you, but should something happen down the line, YOU ARE NOT WORTH GOING TO HELL OVER".

This made me love her even more. Because I then knew that her commitment to God was as important or more so than to me.

I fell in love with her even more. Since then there was a time in my life where I wanted to walk away from God, but because of my wife's love for me and God I was able to come out on top.

God Bless and remember, we will be judged by God's Word not our spouse.

[Anna~]

Where do husbands get thr right o not allow their wives to NOT visit or worship the church of their choice? This sounds controlling which we are called to not do..I cannot prevetn my wife from attending whereever she may be..even if one day she desires to convert another way..God forbid..I am just saying..She is her own person..I am her husband..not her ruler..I am sorry to hear you are so miserable



Where does the man get his authority ? From God! God make no distinctions whether the husband saved or not, ( Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.), by the wife obeying her husband out love and respect, the husband will know the love of Christ.

1) It does not mean violation of her rights according to her dignity as a human person;

2) It does not mean for her to submit to her husband’s desires blindly, totally, and completely because his desires may be unreasonable and not compatible to his wife’s dignity;

3) It does not mean she is to be treated like minors who are not able to make mature judgment.


Now from what I've read, luv husband is not beating her, otherwise I'd say leave get to a safe place, that does not seem to be the issue here. He asked her to attend another church, this is not a sure death, at least he going to church not a bar or worse.

[GMB]

What if her husband says "You are not going to go where they believe in the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues and that holiness stuff. You will cut your hair and wear pants and jewlery and make up."

What give a husband the right to demand his wife to defy God's word?

Is a husbands authority above God's? I THINK NOT!

Whether it be right to obey man or God you be the judge. We can't he but speak of the things which we have seen and heard.

Obediance to God's Word unto salvation is the most important.

When receiving the Holy Ghost one will speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterence is not only scriptural but is salvational.

[Anna~]

What if her husband says "You are not going to go where they believe in the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues and that holiness stuff. You will cut your hair and wear pants and jewlery and make up."

What give a husband the right to demand his wife to defy God's word?

Is a husbands authority above God's? I THINK NOT!

Whether it be right to obey man or God you be the judge. We can't he but speak of the things which we have seen and heard.

Obediance to God's Word unto salvation is the most important.

When receiving the Holy Ghost one will speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterence is not only scriptural but is salvational.

God word is clear, please take this matter to Him.

[GMB]

Your the one that needs to redirect your view. God's word says to see ye the kingdom of God FIRST.

Does one think that God at judgement is going to say " I know you didn't obey the Gospel. But, you obeyed your husband so come on in."


I Think Not!

Obey God's word and pray that God will bring your husband around.

[luvmyfamily]

Your the one that needs to redirect your view. God's word says to see ye the kingdom of God FIRST.

Does one think that God at judgement is going to say " I know you didn't obey the Gospel. But, you obeyed your husband so come on in."


I Think Not!

Obey God's word and pray that God will bring your husband around.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Yes I am submitting to and obeying my husband by going to the church of his choice (and THANK GOD it ISN"T a Mormon church or something!). But that doesn't mean I have to believe what that church thinks. And I don't agree with everything. I have that liberty. There is never going to be a church where someone agrees with 100%. Neither my husband nor the church we go to force me to believe in something I don't agree with. I study the Bible more and more, rather than a bunch of denominational (or non-denominational) doctrine and opinion. It is the Bible which I follow in my walk with God.

Also, my husband doesn't agree with some of the things I believe in...he has got his own interpretations. But he doesn't force me to believe like him. We are in agreement on most things. There are certain things, particularly things about women, that we don't agree on. He is not a female so he doesn't understand what a girl's hair means to her (no matter what length it is), or what it means to have to go out of our way in this day and age to actually be feminine. He doesn't understand that this is something that has actualy been taken away from us in our culture. However, he IS beginning to appreciate it. I am steadfast and firm about me and our daughters, and he is beginning to see the difference that it makes in our lives.

So first and foremost, I submit to God. Then I submit to my husband. If my husband tries to impose something on me that is contrary to the Word of God, I let him know and tell him not only Who he will answer to, but also Who I answer to and that it isn't right. Rarely does this happen.

Regarding our church, it has taken time, but I think he is seeing that it isn't as great as he once thought it was. He is seeing what it is doing to our children. Yes, our pastor usually has some good messages. I won't deny that a good portion of the time what he teaches is solid and sound from the Word of God. But I also won't deny that the Holy Ghost simply isn't there...at least, I have never been able to identify it. Occasionaly a visitor will come who does have the Holy Ghost...and I can sense it automatically in them, simply because our congregation is so devoid of it.

Hubby and I have had a good time studying and discussing the Bible and studying beliefs that are contrary to God's Word (such as Islam, JWs, and Mormonism). It has made us more solid in our faith, because in order to refute them, we HAVE to know what God's Word REALLY says, and not some person's interpretation of it. We like to hear what other people have to say, and discussing our opinion over whether it is right, or wrong, or safely open to interpretation. There are times we go on for HOURS talking about things like these, without getting into arguments! The kids have also picked up on this, and are able to discuss what the Bible has to say with others.