Part 2 An Anonymous Letter: Why I disagree with Oneness Pentecostals [Archive]

View Full Version : Part 2 An Anonymous Letter: Why I disagree with Oneness Pentecostals

mizpeh

10-30-2006, 07:01 PM

Here is Part 2 of a Trinitarian's Objections to Oneness Pentecostalism:

4.) This brings me to my biggest problem with Oneness Pentecostals (though there are more). They deny the teachings and revelations of Jesus Christ the Son of God. In fact, they deny that Jesus Christ is in any real sense a Son at all. The Son is a mode, manifestation, title, role, office, etc., but the Son is not a person who is the Son of His Father.
The Son is a person who is the Son of his Father (the Holy Ghost).
How many nonsensical explanations do you want to explain away a real Son because Oneness have plenty. The Son is the Father enfleshed (unbiblical).

The Son is just a human nature (unbiblical) while the Father is divine nature (not to mention that nature do not pray, love, communicate, etc., only persons do).

The Son is a man (human person) indwelled by the Father (who is also the Holy Spirit).

The Son isn’t the Father, but the Son is the Father.

The Son is God, but the Son is not eternal.

The Son is not God, the Son is a flesh tabernacle for the Father.

The Son was not praying to Himself, but the Father is not someone other than the Son, but the Son was praying to the Father, but the Father is not the Son, the Father and Son are not different persons…etc, etc.

In short, Oneness Theology is most clearly an anti-Christ doctrine as defined by Scripture

Oneness theology is anti-Christ:

3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (1John 1:3)
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour…
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus [the Son] is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. (2John 2:18, 20-26)

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ [the Son of God] has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ [the Son of God] has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist he who does not confess Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as coming in the flesh], which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.(1John 4:1-3)
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1John 5:5-6, 9-13)
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ [the Son of the Father] as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2John 3, 7-9)

Don’t misunderstand me. Oneness Pentecostals see the word "Son" but deny it’s meaning, the Father does not have a Son. The Son can be no one other than the Father (except for those who believe that Jesus was a man indwelled by the Father). They adamantly deny the Son is eternal, they deny the Son ever existed before the incarnation (though some might attempt to say He existed as a thought in the mind of the Father, which would mean the Father existed in His own mind as a thought). And don’t forget those that say the Son is human nature, flesh, while the Father is divine nature, outright denying the Son is God. And throughout all of this maintaining that not only is the Son Jesus, but that also the Father and Holy Spirit are Jesus, even though it flies in the face of the explicit and repeated teaching of Scripture.
In denying that the Son is eternal, they deny the Son is God, and they most certainly deny that the Son was with the Father in creation. They deny that it is the Father’s Son who was incarnated, insisting that it is the Father who was incarnated (as there is no one other than the Father before the incarnation to be incarnated).

Do you think this person is harsh on us or the way in which we present the doctrine of Oneness? Once again how would our heavenly Father want us to respond to this person? Do you believe God is God and there is nothing He cannot do? Can God even open the mind of this trinitarian to the truth of who He is? Jer 32:17 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+32:17&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en), Mr 10:27 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mr+10:27&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

Ec 9:4 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ec+9:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Mizpeh

OriginalPraxeas

10-30-2006, 11:21 PM

mizpeh

10-31-2006, 04:59 AM

I think this person is like a lot of other Trinitarians that have made up their minds about us. They are a waste of time as no matter how you try to explain it they will reword and reinterpret everything you say based on their presumption about you.

Other than for apologetics and a defense of the faith for anyone that is interested, I see people like this as a waste of time

OP,

Perhaps you are right. For whatever reason this person is adamantly opposed to Oneness doctrine, I refuse to believe there is no hope that he will never turn to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. He may be like Saul of Tarsus and need a direct revelation from God. Does God do that anymore? I think He does if a person is sincerely seeking Him for truth.

I was thinking recently how difficult would it be to derail me from what I believe are the foundational truths of Gods word? When I was a new Christian, say the first few years, I struggled with the scriptures in the NT that showed a distinction between the Father and the Son, until after much seeking I believe God showed me who He is (Oneness) and even with that I still find a few scriptures difficult but they do not sway me toward becoming a Trinitarian. I have been grounded in the doctrine of baptisms Heb 6:1-2 and the Oneness of God, not because it has been preached to me over and over again but because I have searched the scriptures myself to see if those things are so, and they are.

Mizpeh

PS:I'm going to respond but I have no time to do that today esp with the board going down tonight.

Donny Cage

10-31-2006, 11:15 AM

4.) This brings me to my biggest problem with Oneness Pentecostals (though there are more). They deny the teachings and revelations of Jesus Christ the Son of God. In fact, they deny that Jesus Christ is in any real sense a Son at all.

False! In actuality, we truly believe the Man, Christ Jesus is the Son of the Living God. Literally! (Luke 1:35; 2 John 1:3) - in contrast, trinitarians don't truly believe Jesus is the Son of God - they believe the Son literally existed along side two other persons, who share being "God". Trinitarians believe Jesus has ALWAYS existed as Son, for the same length of time as the Father (forever). Guess what? Someone that has existed for the same length of time as someone else, they would not be "Father/Son" they would be Brothers (Triplets if you add the Holy Spirit).

They believe Jesus was the Son, then became a Son AGAIN, through birth, when scripture teaches us otherwise. The Bible is perfectly clear on when and WHY He is called the Son of God (Luke 1:35). Through birth.

The Son is a mode, manifestation, title, role, office, etc., but the Son is not a person who is the Son of His Father.
The Son is a person who is the Son of his Father (the Holy Ghost).
How many nonsensical explanations do you want to explain away a real Son because Oneness have plenty. The Son is the Father enfleshed (unbiblical).

The Son is God revealed in flesh. The Bible is perfectly clear about this (1 Timothy 3:16). He was a REAL Human Being. He wasn't pretending to be Human. He wasn't acting. He truly was Human, born of a Woman around 4bc. He actually had a mother, and a biological Father (God), and an earth father, (Joseph). He was literally raised. He literally died, and was resurrected. This Man, is the express image of God's substance. When you look at this Man, you aren't merely looking at a Man that was born of a woman. You are looking at the visible image of the invisble omnipresent Spirit (Hebrews 1:3). The creator of all things (Hebrews 1:10). He isn't just a Man, He is God Himself, revealed in flesh (Hebrews 1:8).

The Son is just a human nature (unbiblical) while the Father is divine nature (not to mention that nature do not pray, love, communicate, etc., only persons do).

Strawman. And this whole "persons" thing is just trickery to attempt to refute the Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God. God is never referred to as a person (The word "Person" in Hebrews 1:3, literally means "substance") The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are never referred to as "persons within the godhead". God is God, and He was revealed in flesh, in ONE person, the Man, Christ Jesus. In Him all the fulness of the Godhead dwells, bodily.

The Son is a man (human person) indwelled by the Father (who is also the Holy Spirit).

The Son isn’t the Father, but the Son is the Father.

The Son is God, but the Son is not eternal.

The Son is not God, the Son is a flesh tabernacle for the Father.

The Son was not praying to Himself, but the Father is not someone other than the Son, but the Son was praying to the Father, but the Father is not the Son, the Father and Son are not different persons…etc, etc.

In short, Oneness Theology is most clearly an anti-Christ doctrine as defined by Scripture

You do not understand Apostolic theology.

Oneness theology is anti-Christ:

False!

The spirit of the antichrist is one who denies the Father and the Son... Which just so happens to be the SAME spirit that denies Jesus came in the flesh. The two are connected. By acknowledging Jesus came in the flesh, you are acknowledging the Father and the Son. Because the Man, Christ Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). The express image of God's substance (Hebrews 1:3). This is why Jesus said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father" and again, "and from now on, you know Him and have seen Him"

Don’t misunderstand me. Oneness Pentecostals see the word "Son" but deny it’s meaning, the Father does not have a Son.

The Father, very much has a Son, He was born around 4bc (Luke 1:35). Scripture tells us the Son was born of a woman (Galatians 4:4).

The Son can be no one other than the Father (except for those who believe that Jesus was a man indwelled by the Father). They adamantly deny the Son is eternal, they deny the Son ever existed before the incarnation (though some might attempt to say He existed as a thought in the mind of the Father, which would mean the Father existed in His own mind as a thought). And don’t forget those that say the Son is human nature, flesh, while the Father is divine nature, outright denying the Son is God. And throughout all of this maintaining the not only is the Son Jesus, but that also the Father and Holy Spirit are Jesus, even though it flies in the face of the explicit and repeated teaching of Scripture.
In denying that the Son is eternal, they deny the Son is God, and the most certainly deny that the Son was with the Father in creation. They deny that it is the Father’s Son who was incarnated, insisting that it is the Father who was incarnated (as there is no one other than the Father before the incarnation to be incarnated).

God was perfectly clear that He was ALONE...

Isaiah 44:24 24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NKJVP&book=Isa&chapter=44#) Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
"I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Trinitarians make God out to be a liar, when they put their twist on John 1:1

luvmyfamily

11-01-2006, 10:00 AM

John 1:1-18

luvmyfamily

11-01-2006, 10:46 AM

Well at least they don't actually put new, small words in John 1:1 the way that JWs do; in JW Bible John 1:1 goes like this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." We have much to be thankful for that it is only interpretation of scripture and not scripture itself that is twisted.

John 1:1-18 KJV words of scripture in blue

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This tells me, the Word was God. What is the Word? Strong's 3056 "logos" - "something said (incl. the thought);...spec. (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ)." God speaks (or thinks, or whatever), something happens. As well as being the Christ (Christos - anointed, i.e. the Messiah an epithet of Jesus.)
The same was in the beginning with God. Sounds to me like the Word (logos) of God has either forever been there, or that it only existed since the beginning of time (at creation). Good thing God exists outside of time! Also God's thoughts, are always WITH Him, but the Word isn't necessarilly something there next to Him. I stand with my husband, but my thoughts and my words are my own. They, too, are WITH me, but my word is not a separate but co-equal "person" of myself. I myself am spirit, flesh, concious thought, and if my kids ever need their lives saved, I will save their life. But I am still one person. I am a mother, and I am a daughter. I have a mother, and I have a daughter. but I am still one person. God made me in His image...therefore there are not three of me. If God were a trinity, He would make my thoughts separate from my flesh, and my spirit separate from all. I could say, hi spirit go comfort my thoughts. But no, that's not how it is. God's thoughts, God's WORD has been with Him forever. And part of God's Word is His plan to save His children.
All things were made by Him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Sounds like the Word made everything.
In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. Without the Word, there would be no life and no light. He is the epitome of life and light.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Sounds like dark doesn't understand this Light. Opposing forces? Oil and water?
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. A man named John was called of God.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. John was a witness of the Light, so that people could believe. We have already ascertained that the Light is the same as the Word is the same as God. John was God's witness.

I will finish this in a couple of hours. Cool study.

coadie

11-01-2006, 11:53 AM

In just reading the letter, It is clear why it is anonymous.

It has line after line with little or large errors in our beliefs.

And what keeps this person from logging in and discussing their opinion?

In the psychology of this deal, they don't like somebody or preacher and are making false claims about doctrine to justify their dislike. It is so easy to see.

They know better than to sign it.

luvmyfamily

11-01-2006, 01:27 PM

Finishing this up...

He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. Making it clear that John wasn't the Light (God), only His witness, his prophet.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. God gives light to every person who is born.
He was in the world, and the world was made my Him, and the world knew Him not. The Light i.e. the Word i.e. GOD came in the form of a man to the world He made, but nobody knew He was there.
He came unto His own, and His own recieved Him not. "His own" meaning His fleshly bloodline, the Jews. They would not acknowledge He was God, for the most part.
But as many as recieved Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Anyone who DID acknowledge this man to be God, and recieved Hi, He gave them power to be His children - ANYONE who believes in His name.
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. These "children" could only be born of God, by His power, not of flesh, blood or man. Our own fleshly will does not do this. Anyone who recieves Him becomes born of God. Our flesh comes under subjection to our spirit, leading us to God's Spirit.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. God fashioned a fleshly body for Himself to dwell in, to live among us. His followers saw the glory which could only be who God Himself dwelt inside. He was full of grace and truth. God's glory shone through the flesh He designed for Himself.
John bare witness of Him, and cried, saying, This was He of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for He was before me. John talked about a great one who would come after him, and testified to others when he saw Him. He said He would be even greater than himself, because, He was before John ever was...He was God.
And of His fulness have all we recieved, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Here a name is given to associate with the grace and truth...Jesus, the Christ.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. There you have it. This is the FIRST place where the terms "Father" and "Son" are mentioned in this whole passage. The Son declares the Father, Who is unseen. Who does it refer to the Son as? Jesus.

This is one of the best passages in the Bible, and it really speaks for itself, especially when you take a really good look at it. The Word is God. God is the Light. The Word became flesh. The name taken is Jesus. And who did He give power to become sons of God? Anyone who believed on His name, the name of Jesus.

You simply cannot separate Word and God. It's the same thing. This passage says so itself. I wish I had the words to really go in depth, but like I said, the whole passage really speaks for itself.

mizpeh

11-01-2006, 01:57 PM

Response part 1

I think this Trinitarian speaks for the majority of trinitarians in the grievances he brings up regarding Oneness Pentecostals. He is not the first to say these things nor will he be the last. We (Oneness) can take a stand for what we know to be the tuth of God's word with love and not animosity.

Dear Trinitarian,

I'd like to address your remarks concerning Oneness Pentecostals.

4.) This brings me to my biggest problem with Oneness Pentecostals (though there are more). They deny the teachings and revelations of Jesus Christ the Son of God. In fact, they deny that Jesus Christ is in any real sense a Son at all.

This statement cannot be any further from the truth. We don't deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We affirm it wholeheartedly. We just don't hold to an eternally begotten Son. We can only speak of Jesus Christ being the Son of God when He was born as a man Lu 1:35 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+1:35&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Any preexistence of the Son was in the foreknowledge of God. Ro 4:17 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+4:17&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

Heb 1:5 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+1:5&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

The Son is a mode, manifestation, title, role, office, etc., but the Son is not a person who is the Son of His Father.

The Son is a manifestation of God 1Ti 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=1ti+3:16&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) The scripture clearly teaches this. The question is who is God?

The Son is a person who is the Son of his Father (the Holy Ghost).
How many nonsensical explanations do you want to explain away a real Son because Oneness have plenty. The Son is the Father enfleshed (unbiblical).

Enfleshed = Incarnated.

I guess I should begin with who I think God is. If I define "God" then you will understand what I mean when I say "God". And while I'm at it, let's just say the word "person ' is the same as the "self" or the "I". Let's keep it simple.

God is spirit and a Spirit. There is only one God. One as in one "person" One as in when God speaks He says "I " of himself. He speaks of himself in the form of a singualr pronoun. He is the only God. Isa 37:20 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+37:20&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) He alone is God. Isa 37:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+37:16&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) There is no other God. Isa 44:8 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+44:8&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

Isa 45:12 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+45:12&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Eze 38:23 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+38:23&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ex 6:2 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+6:2&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

Did God change from the Old Tetament to the New Testament? or was He still the same God? Do you think the apostles thought of God any differently when they encountered Him in the flesh? When did their understanding change from the God who spoke singularly of himself as "myself" to a plurality of selves within one nature? Where is the "missing link" verse which would clearly show how God went from one person to three? Why was this kept hidden from the nation He loved. Exodus 29:45-46, De 7:8 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=de+7:8&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) . He wants everyone to know Him. Heb 8:10-11. Since God wants to be known why would He hide such a truth for so long? It doesn't make sense.

So when the Bible says "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Ti 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=1ti+3:16&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) it is clear the one and only God who came in the form of a man was/is the God of the Old Testament. God = God. Not God = God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit (trinity). Nor Father = God, Son = God, or Spirit = God yet they are not each other. Your definition(s) of God do not make sense. Whenever I see the word, God, in scripture I know exactly who is speaking or being spoken of.

The Son is just a human nature (unbiblical) while the Father is divine nature (not to mention that nature do not pray, love, communicate, etc, only persons do).

The Son is a man (human person) indwelled by the Father (who is also the Holy Spirit).

The Son isn’t the Father, but the Son is the Father.

The Son is God, but the Son is not eternal.

The Son is not God, the Son is a flesh tabernacle for the Father.

The Son was not praying to Himself, but the Father is not someone other than the Son, but the Son was praying to the Father, but the Father is not the Son, the Father and Son are not different persons…etc, etc.

All of the above make note of the distinction between the Son and the Father which came about because of the incarnation. And because of the incarnation (God becoming man) He now has two ways of existing simultaneously. One in the world as a man called the Son of God and the other out of the world as the Spirit in whom we live and move and have our being. None of the "nonsensical explanations" above adequately describe the incarnation nor do they represent Oneness beliefs properly. I know you would not want us to say you as a Trinitarian believe in three Gods, because you don't, likewise neither do we like being misrepresented by the above statements.

continued....

mizpeh

11-01-2006, 02:56 PM

Part 2
In short, Oneness Theology is most clearly an anti-Christ doctrine as defined by Scripture

Oneness theology is anti-Christ:

This is very bold of you to judge our beliefs as being "against" Christ. We do nothing but exalt Jesus Christ in all that we do. We are baptized in His name, we pray in His name, we worship Him as God Almighty, and we cast out devils in His name......Mark 9:38-40And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.

We are not "against" Christ therefore we are not antiChrist.

3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (1John 1:3)
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour…
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus [the Son] is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. (2John 2:18, 20-26)

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ [the Son of God] has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ [the Son of God] has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist he who does not confess Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as coming in the flesh], which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.(1John 4:1-3)

You inserted [the Son of God] when it is clearly not there in the Bible. These verses are speaking of the preexisting divine Spirit who came in the flesh. IOW God. It is not saying the Son of God is come in the flesh. You are most definitely adding to scripture when you do that to try to impose your preconceived ideas upon scripture. You could equate [the Word] with Jesus Christ in this verse but not the term, the Son. You see, the eternal Spirit that remained outside the incarnation is also called Jesus Christ. The eternal Spirit is come in the flesh. Because God (Father) and Son are the same "person", they have the same name. Not to mention Jesus said he came in his Father's name. Joh 5:43 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+5:43&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) God did not use this name prior to the incarnation. he went by the name of YHWH in the OT , now in the NT God is called Jesus. Tit 2:13 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+2:13&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) And as for God being the Father, this is clearly taught in the NT. 1Co 8:4 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+8:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) 1Co 8:6 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+8:6&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) 2Co 1:3 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+1:3&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Joh 17:3 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+17:3&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

1Jo 4:2 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+4:2&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1John 5:5-6, 9-13)

We believe the testimony God has given to us of his Son and we also believe in the name of the Son of God. I am not sure that these verses prove otherwise. Care to elaborate? any Trinitarian response will be welcome. :)

3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ [the Son of the Father] as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2John 3, 7-9)

Once again you have added your beliefs to the word of God when you bracketed [the Son of the Father]. Jesus Christ in this instance is not referring to the Son, for the Son did not exist until a certain day, "this day" and was not called the Son of God until the angel told Mary the good news.

We indeed have both the Father and the Son when we abide in the doctrine of Christ, for there is only one God (Father) and that one God (Father) was manifest in the flesh (Son).

Don’t misunderstand me. Oneness Pentecostals see the word "Son" but deny it’s meaning, the Father does not have a Son. The Son can be no one other than the Father (except for those who believe that Jesus was a man indwelled by the Father). They adamantly deny the Son is eternal, they deny the Son ever existed before the incarnation (though some might attempt to say He existed as a thought in the mind of the Father, which would mean the Father existed in His own mind as a thought).

The preexistence of the Son is simply the everlasting God. Mic 5:2 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mic+5:2&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Mt 1:23 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+1:23&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

And don’t forget those that say the Son is human nature, flesh, while the Father is divine nature, outright denying the Son is God.

I hate to keep pointing out all your misconceptions of Oneness( I know there are many different forms of Oneness as there are types of trinitarians, this may be what has led to your confusion) But all Oneness agree God is one "person" with two natures (prior to the resurrection).

And throughout all of this maintaining the not only is the Son Jesus, but that also the Father and Holy Spirit are Jesus, even though it flies in the face of the explicit and repeated teaching of Scripture.

If you know who God is you would not say that.

In denying that the Son is eternal, they deny the Son is God,

This accusation is not true, the deity of the Son/the "person"/God is without a doubt eternal.

and the most certainly deny that the Son was with the Father in creation.

We do not deny the Word was with God in creation, but we also confirm that the Word was/is God, not another "person" of God but God himself. The Word did not become the Son until the Word was made flesh.

They deny that it is the Father’s Son who was incarnated, insisting that it is the Father who was incarnated (as there is no one other than the Father before the incarnation to be incarnated).

You got that one right. If this was a Oneness test you would have failed. God was incarnated not the Son, that is plain as day. God was manifest in the flesh. Who? God. not another person of God but God himself.

I hope you will consider my words and reconsider your definition of God.

Blessings,

Mizpeh

Evangelist Paul

11-01-2006, 06:23 PM

Donny Cage

11-01-2006, 06:55 PM

When I read the original post on this thread it reminded me of the way we sometimes treat others who do not define the godhead the way we do. We come to conclusions about what they believe then attack them on the basis of what we have concluded.

The scripture I read declares that there is just One God; they also teach that Jesus is God manifest in flesh; they also teach that it is only through faith in the shed blood of Christ that we can gain right standing with God - People on both sides of the godhead issue agree on those statements.

From what I can understand in word those are the required points to be believe to be a Christian.

But I guess it is fun to argue the point

Well, then the question becomes, "at what point do we draw the line?"

At what point do we say, "That is not the God of the Bible"? When do we say, "That is a different Jesus"?

To some it may not sound like a big deal, but do you believe there is one and only one God? Don't you believe that only the right God can save? The apostles warned us about "different Jesus'" and a different gospel.

Paul warned for three years, with tears that false teachers and false doctrine would come from among the flock. He thought it was a big deal.. In fact thought it was a huge deal.. as did all of the apostles. Many of the epistles were written in response to some of the rank heresy that was spreading during that time.

So where do we draw the line?

One person says, "Jesus is God alone, He is the only one who is / was / ever will be God"

Another person says, "Jesus is only one of three persons that shares being "God" with two other persons"

Would you not say that's two different Jesus'? Is that not two different gods? One God is singlular (One), that has expressed Himself in MANY ways (much more than 3), another god is multple in persons. That's two completely different gods.

One God is Jesus, the other god merely "includes" Jesus.

I say "other god" - lower case "g" because that's what the trinity is. It's a false god, not found in the Bible. It's a man made doctrine that developed over a period of time, through much controversy and debate. The mere idea of the trinity dilutes the very glory of God. It takes away from the very beauty and meaning of what happened at calvary. It also renders God's nature, which includes omnipresence, meaningless...

There is only one God. There is only one Christ that can save. He is Jesus.

While your notion sounds nice, "Let's get along, we basically believe the same thing", please don't make the mistake of falling into "interfaithism". If you are not drawing the line here then where do you draw the line?

Jehovah's witnesses believe Jesus is the Son of God, and He died... Mormons and Unitarians believe Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins...

Besides that, each one of the above teach rank heresy. Are they to be included in the body of Christ as well?

Are we just splitting hairs?

Shauna

11-01-2006, 08:07 PM

I do think this person is very harsh on us and what we believe. I think the answer is to pray. Pray that God gives them the truth of who He really is. That's what it's going to take. Until that happens they will remain blind.

Yes Jesus can open the mind of a Trinitarian. I know b/c He opened mine. I was desperate to know what He looked like and how in the world He could be in a trio. I was tired of being confused about which one I was praying to, and tired of worrying if I was offending the other two. The trinity is nothing but demonic confusion. Our Lord is not the author of confusion. Once I got the revelation of Oneness all my questions were answered.

Do you think this person is harsh on us or the way in which we present the doctrine of Oneness? Once again how would our heavenly Father want us to respond to this person? Do you believe God is God and there is nothing He cannot do? Can God even open the mind of this trinitarian to the truth of who He is? Jer 32:17 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+32:17&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en), Mr 10:27 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mr+10:27&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

Ec 9:4 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ec+9:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Mizpeh

Norman

11-01-2006, 08:30 PM

It is the Trinitarians that deny that Jesus is really the Son of God by saying he is the "Eternal Son" which is a contradiction. If he is eternal as the Son, then he is not really a son because you have to be born to be a son. They say he is "eternally begotten"; they might as well talk about dry water.
"Eternally" and "begotten" are totally opposite.

BOBJAMES

11-04-2006, 05:38 PM

They don't have Holiness by their own admission, no standards are taught, believed, followed in most 99% of their lives and the other 1% have other errors doctrinally.

They deny Baptism in Jesus name and follow a Catholic tradition and not biblical one.
They deny in most cases water baptism for remission of sin, but with some other faulty foundation.
They follow many errant positions regarding mode and formula as well as to necessity.

They run the gamut regarding Spirit baptism from no you cannot get it today, to yes you can, from those who believe you will speak in tongues to those who believe tongues is involved at all.
How can we base such a doctrine on all these varying ideas and teachings.
They do not have a common salvation, so they don't fit the bill, they are not the church.

Then we get to their three god idea or 1/3 each of a God, they cannopt make up their minds or anyone elses with such hideous teachings.
Some call them seperate and distinct persons, some say they are three individuals, some say they are three non-different persons and you can find several other points they bring forth, which don't agree with the scriptures of One God and that being Jesus.

Trinitarians are not saved, are not Christian and thus can only split hell open, unless they get the Biblical truth that Oneness Apostolic Christians hold.

BOB JAMES

luvmyfamily

11-04-2006, 08:29 PM

BOBJAMES

11-04-2006, 10:58 PM

Muslim, Moonie, etc.
This is not a hard thing to tell men or women truth, Jesus said "Ye must be born again", so why is it hard for me to tell those who deny the Biblical truths to change?

One can think all they want that I hate or dislike them, but that is not true.
I like the man on a rainy night trying to tell those driving that the bridge is out and to stop, may seem annoying to the driver of the vehicle to slow down, but it is truth and I am not out there to say it in the most pleasing tone as I scream at them, that they are doomed.

I deny any Trinitarian as Christian as they stay in error and a system that has murdered--we haven't done so, a tri-system that has tortured--we haven't done that, that has raped--we haven't done so, that has lied and cheated and ---we haven't done that.

I came out of that error and pack of lies from Satan, I just want others to do the same.

BOB JAMES

Webmaster

11-05-2006, 08:05 AM

BOB JAMES,

Bob, you need to develop a spirit of tact. I think I will pray for you.

Bob has hit a point of truth, though. Problem is, there are many on the Oneness side that let other things go that need to be addressed. The problem with these internet forums is, there is difficulty addressing all of the points...I will do a synopsis of what I mean:

From my view of the Scripture, the traditional oneness view of salvation is correct. However, just because one follows it does not guarantee one will make Heaven.

The attack we make on those that proclaim we are saved by faith is valid. Faith alone does not save...faith causes us to go farther: Faith without works is dead. A dead faith will not carry you.

Likewise, just because you obey Acts 2:38, you are not signed, sealed, and delivered. Having truth does not give us license to have a bad spirit, malign others character, etc.....I could go on.

Acts 2:38 to get right...Faith to stay right..Holiness to live right.

I like to eat, which if you see my picture, you will give me an AMEN. I like apple pie. Wouldn't taste right without the apples...

We NEED ALL the ingredients people. Leave some out, it don't taste right.

BOBJAMES

11-06-2006, 01:15 AM

BOBJAMES

11-06-2006, 01:32 AM

Ok wow that's rather blunt. Would you care telling that to my Brethren pastor dad, or my mother, or my sister, or my non-denom. in-laws? I'm sure they would love you so much for telling them they are not Christians.

I ask, how can they be saved in what they are in? Do you believe they are and are you one of the 'Brethren' (which are Trinitarians).

Is their salvational doctrine of being born again of water and Spirit correct?

Is there belief of Jesus as the one True God, alone adn by himself correct?

Do they follow the Biblical standards of Holiness?

Do you believe that Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, are saved?

ONE FAITH AND ONE COMMON SALVATION AND THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE.
Are they following that, are they teaching it?

BOB JAMES

Webmaster

11-06-2006, 08:27 AM

My point Brother is that we are to teach the words of Christ, we are to warn them when in error, "except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish" Lk 13:5, so I don't go around and suggesting people just get right, I believe we must tell them, our doctrine is not to be a occasional sprinkle but should drop like a heavy rain from heaven in our message.

I agree that there will be those that were once in truth and fall, but I believe we are to tell any who is in a false religion to be saved. Certainly you would not think if plainly ask can a Trinitarians be saved in the religion they are in, or must be saved from it?

I am not known for alot of tact, for telling those on the Internet the truth, yes! We are in the last days and these people must here and see the truth.

"Having truth does not give us license to have a bad spirit, malign others character, etc....."

Also I don't think I have done any of the above, but will check the post.
I know none of it was meant or intended.

BOB JAMES

I know it is quite possible to say things and not have them come out as meant. I know this because I do it on a regular basis. Tact is something that I lack, also.

The comment you quoted is one I have been guilty of (as have you) in the past. However, there are a great many of us that believe Acts 2:38 that seem to believe we can do those things and it is not wrong. They may get a surprise on judgement day.

It is admirable, and you are to be commended, for your concern for truth. Many in this day seem not to be so concerned.

luvmyfamily

11-06-2006, 11:07 AM

I ask, how can they be saved in what they are in? Do you believe they are and are you one of the 'Brethren' (which are Trinitarians).

Is their salvational doctrine of being born again of water and Spirit correct?

Is there belief of Jesus as the one True God, alone adn by himself correct?

Do they follow the Biblical standards of Holiness?

Do you believe that Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, are saved?

ONE FAITH AND ONE COMMON SALVATION AND THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE.
Are they following that, are they teaching it?

BOB JAMES

My point, bro., is that you don't go right up to my dad or whoever and say "you are not a Christian". You must be tactful, like webmaster said. Do I believe in Trinitarian doctrine? No. Do I believe my family (i.e. my mother and father and sister) has repented, turning their lives completely around, and have been baptized? Yes. Do they have the Holy Ghost as we believe in it? No. Apparantly however there was one guy in my dad's Brethren congregation who had the gift of tongues...just no one to be interpreter. He was never able to exercise his gift. Do I believe my family are saved? Not for me to judge. There are things they do not know about. According to their belief regarding salvation, they are saved. But again, I dare not judge. Do they follow holiness doctrines? As they understand them, yes. No, I am not Brethren. There are things we agree to disagree on. However I know that there are things my family is learning and coming to understand regarding what I believe. They are still relatively young in their faith (6 years) so I don't expect them to see everything my way. In the meantime I present to them my beliefs, and what it says about them in the Bible. I simply have to be patient. I don't expect overnight insight.

Do I believe that Mormons and JWs are saved? I presented that to myself and my husband yesterday evening. I said, "should we consider them our brothers and sisters in Christ?" We know for fact that Mormons have totally false doctrine. In that case I say no for sure. JWs do not believe Jesus is God, but they do believe Jesus is the Messiah, who died for our sins, etc. For me to say whether or not they are our brothers and sisters in Christ is difficult. I would prefer to say no, since they don't believe that Jesus is God. BUT, again, God is judge, not me. They believed they are saved and will live forever on Paradise Earth. But I have extremely difficult time with their beliefs. At the same time they think that we who think Jesus is God have false doctrine. I don't think I can in good conscience call Mormons or JWs my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I don't believe in the trinity, but I don't have a problem calling many of them my brothers and sisters in Christ (depending on their belief regarding the trinity. Some lean more toward oneness than you would think). In the same way I have no problem whatsoever calling an Apostolic who does not yet have the Holy GHost my brother or sister in Christ. If you believe Jesus is God, died for your sins, and resurrected, and if you have repented and turned your life around, If you follow solely the Bible as your source for faith and life (rather than other books), then I will call you my brother or sister in Christ. I understand that certain brothers or sisters are still very young, and many are ignorant, and that we have varying opinions. Many times there will need to be correction, to deviate from doctrines of men, old traditions with no biblical foundation, etc. And I won't call someone my brother or sister who is blantantly living in sin and has never come to Christ.

I would much rather be loving and gentle in my approach, and give people who call themseles born-again the benefit of the doubt. Sooner or later many will search themselves and search the scriptures to determine exactly what the Bible DOES say about salvation. It's my job to plant the seeds of truth, and encourage. What they do with it is up to them.

mizpeh

11-10-2006, 04:18 AM

Was this person as harsh as Jesus was to the Jews? I don't think so. :eek:

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Whit,

Jesus knew the thoughts and intents of men's hearts. He could judge righteously. Jesus also knows the truth. This trinitarian is not Jesus. He is judging God's servants based on his own understanding of scripture but is his understanding correct? We all stand or fall before God himself.

Mizpeh

MawMaw

03-08-2007, 12:14 AM

I'm new to the GNC....was just reading the responses to the confused trinitarian.....i applaud one responder in particular........Mr Cage.....amen sir on all you wrote.....the line HAS been drawn.....and whoever is on THE Lord's side.....better stand strong and not wilt under "false accusations" from those against Truth and the ONE and Only True God! We'll just keep praying for those who are wandering around in darkness that they will get a hunger and thirst like they've never known!!! God bless!!!

mizpeh

09-12-2007, 06:40 PM

Yes, we all will stand or fall before God. And according to Jesus Himself, you will die in your sins if you don't except him for who He is.

Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. Here the Son is making a statement of deity, He is claiming to be God. Jesus confirms this in verse 58. Before Abraham was I Am.
I agree with you that verse 58 is a declaration of indentity with the I AM (YHWH) of the OT but in verse 24 when Jesus said ....I am he. I'm not so sure. I think in this verse he could be saying that he is either the Messiah or the Son of God or both. Who did Jesus say he was from the beginning?

23 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:25&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:26&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:27&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:28&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Who is the 'he' in verse 28? Is it the Father?

Rulkiewicz

09-12-2007, 09:59 PM

I agree with you that verse 58 is a declaration of indentity with the I AM (YHWH) of the OT but in verse 24 when Jesus said ....I am he. I'm not so sure. I think in this verse he could be saying that he is either the Messiah or the Son of God or both. Who did Jesus say he was from the beginning?

Who is the 'he' in verse 28? Is it the Father?

John 8:25; Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

I interpret verse 25 the following:

Jesus answers the question by telling them that he is God. Beginning being the beginning of time.

coadie

09-18-2007, 09:48 PM

coadie

10-04-2007, 01:59 PM

I suspect all4him that many of us have not been all over the web and looked.

As I recall, the trinitarians were the first to declare it an anathema to not accept their extra biblical doctrines.

Troubled1

12-23-2008, 08:21 AM

I love The Apostolic Church in a whole. I do not like the radical putting down of other churches. God said to wait on the harvest and he will cast all none belivers into the fire. Are church has only been around since 1905. A lot of Apostolics believe that they are the only church. We like to push judgement on all other Churches. When did God give us his job. It is not are place to say they are wrong. We should live by example and do right by are hearts. This is not some political race.

Janice Alvear

12-23-2008, 08:42 AM

Well if there aew 3 and all equal yet you must have 3 to make one...when he died at calvary we only had two thirds of the godhead alive...so I think it makes more sence to understand the part that dies was man...the flesh...

I am no Bible teacher but I am glad I know Deut. 6:4...

MawMaw

12-23-2008, 09:11 AM

Me too, Sis. Alvear. Not hard to understand at all. :)

Our Lord is One!!!!.............

One Lord!! Oh Hallelujah!!! :):)

(not a fraction of a god)!! :blink: