Question on Church Elders or Ministers Meetings

[Sandy]

During the discussion on whether to segregate vs integrating the postings Bro. John pointed out the fact that the local churches have elders meetings to discuss certain issues privately, where the rest of the congregation are not included. And this is certainly true, Al and I having been to a many of them ourselves. But after this was pointed out, I began to question whether this is really scriptural or not for the New Testament church. Because I cannot think of any scripture that suggests that it is, where the rest of that congregation is excluded entirely. Yes, I know when you are incorporated, the laws regarding said corporations. And could say plenty on that, but that is not what my question pertains to, so I will stay awya from that one. My question has to do with whether said elder meetings where certain men that are considered to be in authority, and therefore qualified to make certain decisions pertaining to the local church, thus excluding the rest of the congregation are something that is scriptural to begin with? And if so, where is it written or suggested in the scriptures that such things were done in the New Testament Church to begin with? Because I am just foolish enough to believe that if it isn't written or suggested somehow within the scriptures, which I very well may not be aware of, then it probably is a manmade tradition or doctrine then.

[bishop1]

:bow:
A daffy-nition of a Committee: - "A group of people who individually can do nothing -
BUT, as a group decides that nothing can be done."

Before we can decipher the leadership of an Apostolic Church -
We Must Understand That 'GOD'S CHURCH IS A THEOCRACY -
- Not a Democracy !

Let us now look at what The Bible says:

1 CORINTHIANS 14:33/35
{33} - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, and as in all churches of the saints.
{34} - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
{35} - And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 TIMOTHY 2:9/15
{9} - In like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety: not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
{10} - But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
{11} - Let the women learn in silence with all subjection.
{12} - For I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
{13} - For Adam was first formed the Eve.
{14} - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
{15} - Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1 PETER 3: 1/5
[1] - Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
{2} - While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
{3} - Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel ;
{4} - But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
{5} - For after this maner in the old time the holy women also , who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands.
:angel: [URL=http://www.acts238holinessorhell.com]

[Sandy]

Dear Bro. Holland,

I thank you for your answer. But could you please explain to me in what specific way those scriptures apply to my question. As I do not see the significance at all.

But I do see a reason for you answer none the less, having had the same answer given me to before many times. That is unless you're trying to say that the female gender should be excluded from these meetings because they might try to say something? But if this is your reasoning, then what about our better halves? Or are you trying to say that all those that are not walking in the ministry gifts would be considered spiritual women and therefore should not be allowed to speak, and therefore should be excluded according to these scriptures? If so, I would have to respectfully disagree with you. In fact, I would respectfully have to disagree with you that those scriptures have anything to do with my question to begin with, unless you can show me a reasonable reason how they do apply. :bow:

[Adoniyah]

Sister Sandy:

You have asked a very probing question, such that I am not sure that we can, in this day, adequately answer owing to our "liberated" society that cannot possibly perceive from our cultural perspective. Humanity has never lived in such a cultural enlightment (so called) as we live in today here in North America.

From our present cultural perspective, I do not believe that any could give an adequate answer from scripture that would satisfy our cultural demands and (so called) enlightment.

Regardless of what scriptural answer that would be given would be debated from our present day cultural perspective.

In an effort to answer the question from the Word, one must consider why did not Jesus add at least one or more females in his Apostolic circle? One must wonder why in Acts 6:3 there had to be seven MEN (females excluded) of honest report full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom? Could not Jesus find one woman worthy to be an Apostle numbered among the twelve? Could not the early church find one woman full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom to take charge of the affairs of the church?

I am sure that the examples that Jesus and the early Apostles exemplified would not be sufficient to satisfy today's cultural demands of 21st century America that is replete with the idea of that which is politically correct in an atomsphere of Equal Rights.

[Sandy]

Thank you Adoniyah. And yes, it is certainly true there were no original women apostles according to the scriptures. Although there were women that apparently were his disciples, and possibly even traveled with them.

But my question really was not geared to the women issue at all. In fact, I didn't even have that in mind upon asking it. It simply had to do with whether private board meetings of elders the local church has, excluding members, which are often and mostly to discuss church policies and procedures of what they plan to do regarding said church is something that is New Testament procedure at all. Because when you focus this onto only the women in the way Bro. Bishop did, then you are only talking about a part of those that are excluded from the decision making. So this should not become a woman vs man issue whatsoever IMO. Why? Well some believe strongly that women should not say anything within the boundaries of the sanctuary to begin with. Yet are they not permitted in said sanctuary to worship with everyone else, at the same time, even though they are not permitted to speak? So therefore, this really should never be turned into what we all believe these scriptures Bishop gave me are talking about at all. So I am not even going to share what I believe they are saying either.

I was wondering whether these meetings are truly of God or man.
And for a reason too. Because we desire to do things Gods way and not mans. If it is of God, then that is what we want to do. If not, but only a tradition, then that may or may not be the wise way for your particular fellowship, even though everyone else is doing it. And it is true, most do have these meetings. And some do not exclude the wives when they do either, even though generally they say nothing at them at all.

And yes, this is a woman writing and asking this. But not before I asked my husband about it, his telling me he would have to think on that one, but to go ahead and ask because he was interested in knowing the answer others gave on here to this too.

But if nobody really knows, then obviously it is a tradition of the church in which each church needs to pray about, and do what the Lord leads them individually to do.

[Sandy]

Adoniyah,

In reading again what you wrote, I think I do see your point regarding even what you wrote about women now. :D

Sometimes it takes me some time to catch onto what the other may actually be saying. And even then I could still be wrong. :D

[stmatthew]

I beleive some things are done simply out of necessity. As a manager (leader), I don't call all the employee's in and get their opinion on everything. I am not saying it is wrong to, and sometimes it is wise to get everyones opinion and ideas. But sometimes it is just not feasible. I believe there is a proper time for everything. There are times that leadership needs to communicate privately. It should not be to hide things. Just a time for leadership to discuss strategies and goals. As far as church business, let the deacons handle it!! A pastor needs to give himself to prayer and study of the word, not entangle himself with whether the light bill is paid.

jmho

[Adoniyah]

Sandy, I understood your question quite well...I believe. No, I am sure that your questions were not a man vs woman issue at all.

Yes, there were many women that were used of God in many mighty ways including preaching and prophesying in the New Testament. Some of the very greatest servants/messengers of God that I have ever known were women. Who among us old timers can ever forget Sister Lyndol Kruse? Few have ever or could ever remotely match her anointing and preaching. She was without equal.

Yet, Jesus gave us an example as did the Apostles, without a great deal of explanation concerning the matter and questions that you have proposed. From the scriptures, I doubt that any of us could possibly answer the "why" of this example without much speculation.

Yes, I know that man was created first. Yes, I know that it was Even deceived and not Adam. Yes, I know that God gave the woman to the man for a helpmeet. I know all of these propositions including many more besides, but they do not adequately answer the lingering "why" question. We are only left with the example. The government of God seems to have always been left to men without the explanation with whom decisions were made without general or definitive explanation and publication among the constituents.

[Jim]

Sandy,

You wrote:

“My question has to do with whether said elder meetings where certain men that are considered to be in authority, and therefore qualified to make certain decisions pertaining to the local church, thus excluding the rest of the congregation are something that is scriptural to begin with?”

I would like to confine my response to eldership meetings for the purpose of oversight of a local assembly (there can be meetings for any number of different reasons).

There are several key Scriptural principles on oversight of the local assembly that provide a basis for an eldership meeting for the purpose of oversight. Those who oversee must meet all the biblical qualifications for overseers, be biblically gifted, tested, and must be appointed as overseers. If all members of a local assembly are involved in the oversight process, this would be in violation of these Scriptural principles. There are several New Testament Scriptural references where we see meetings of apostles and elders and elders without all members of the local assembly present.

It is also clear from other Scriptures that the overseers do not exercise oversight in secret as there are Scriptures that describe overseers giving reports of their actions to others. When a local assembly has the close personal relationships and mutual accountability of all believers that we read about in the Book of Acts assemblies, there will be honest and extensive communication with those you are in close relationship with.

I can send you a study that may address some of the questions you have on this issue. Send me a note at Jim@GloriousChurch.com and I will forward it to you.

God bless,

Jim

www.GloriousChurch.com

[Sandy]

Bro. Jim,

Thank you for sending me all of the info. As I am sure you know, it will take some time to go thru all you sent. And I would also want my husband to do so as well.

Bro. Adoniyah,
Yes, I agree with what you shared regarding women apostles. In fact, most women that are believers do not want to have that kind of leadership responsibilities anyway. I like being a woman very much. I like it that my husband has the responsibilities of deciding important issues to be honest. I appreciate his willingness to listen to what I might have to say very much too, which he does. But still the final decisions are left up to him, none the less, and whether I agree or not, I do my best to submit to them anyway. Because that is what the Lord wants me to do. And if he is wrong, then the Lord gets to deal with him, not me. So there are definite advantages to being a woman ya know. I betcha your wife knows too.

I don't believe at the present time woman are called to be an apostle. That is something I have considered, but at the same time, I do not know for sure. Although if some woman claimed to be, I doubt I would argue the point with her. Mainly because I am not that much into titles to begin with. Although I have known some I believe God told me were apostles. But these were never a woman to date anyway. :D

To anyone:
Forgive me if I seem to be a little touchy about the woman issue. Because I am not, nor never have been even close to what I imagine a womens libber might be, even before coming to the Lord. I don't even believe women should work if they have children at home, if they do not have to. Although I know some do have to, and I understand that too. Nor would I judge those that do not have to, but simply choose to either, because I figure that is between them and the Lord basically. But those that are able to, I personally believe they need to take care of their own children themselves, and especially when they are younger. But I am also an adament believer of children being home schooled too, especially today. I would not even send my child to most of the Christian schools if I could possibly help it, let alone any of the public schools. But I also understand some have to as well. I also had to at one time, when my girls were young.

Much of what I believe probably comes from the way I was raised I am sure. As a child, I even had to wait on my brother at times, simply because he was a boy. Now that was going to far, IMHO, but it didn't hurt me one bit either. It probably hurt him more, because he grew up never learning how to clean, cook or anything else that has to be done in a home. And believe me it showed later, during the time he was living alone as a single. Thankfully, he is now married of course, and has been for many years.

Also, I would like to share this fact too. Just because I am the one that gets on here rather than Al, does not mean that I run anything. I feel sometimes that some may think so, but not true. Maybe because of I do voice what my husband and I both believe to be truth, so therefore come across as trying to usurp authority over the men here. But that is not my goal at all. Because after I do share, what another chooses to believe is up to them totally whether one agrees or does not agree. And therefore, if someone does end up disagreeing with me I consider it a decision we all should be free to make on our own. Not just for Al and I, but also for everyone else, thus becoming something that is between each of us and the Lord basically. I come here because I enjoy doing so for many various reasons. And Al, on the other hand, would not, and has told me so, but encourages me to do so none the less. But at the same time tells me this is my thing, not his. While at times he even tells me what to say, he does not do the typing. In fact, I am his secretary when it comes to doing anything in that department. But he is the one that goes and visits others all of the time, sharing the Word wherever he goes. That is his thing.

I know I didn't have to share any of this about myself, and also realize it is off the subject too. But I just felt like doing so anyway, since it did take somewhat of a turn toward the issue of women as a result.

Adoniyah, since the sister you mentioned was anointed, then obviously the scripture in 1st Corinthians 14 must be referring to something else other than women not speaking at all in the assembly. :D

[pastorb]

Sister Sandy,

I understand your desire to know I think, but whether it's in scripture or not or a man made tradition or not, is that really relevant?

It's it something that is hurtful to the body?

Is it something that builds up the body?

1 Corinthians 14:40 say, to let all things be done decently and in order.

The bible also says that where the business of the church is concerned be men.

The purpose of our leadership meetings which we hold every week:

To see how well the service went?

If everyone had enough to eat?

How was sunday school?

Were the restrooms clean?

Did it start on time?

Were people greeted and seated properly?

Did the worship team have their music together?

What do we need to make next sunday and the rest of the week a success for God?

Meetings are held so that everything can be done in the spirit of excellence and so that those who are leaders can be and feel apart of taking care of their house.

I share what ever vision God has given me for the leadership so that when the sinner and the visitor comes, they will feel at home and they will be treated like they should.

Jesus said, come and dine...

Come unto me....

Cast your cares...

My yoke is easy...

I give rest to the weary....

I stand at the door and knock...

Meetings help us promote this atmosphere.

Meetings help us do everything in the spirit of Excellence, meetings are for the mature saints the Leadership.

Do we discuss our bills with the babies? They are ready for that yet so we have a private meeting when they are asleep.

[pastorb]

Sandy, this is a disclaimer, as you have read my post know I'm not stuck on the woman issue. If I can listen to an 11 year old quote scripture and tear the church up I can certainly hear truth from you as well.

Truth is Truth irregardless of who delivers it, it doesn't negate the truth.

[drummerboy_dave]

Another, very wise post, Pastorb.

[Sandy]

Good points Pastorb. Especially the one that points out the fact that if it is good for that particular local body, then it is ok whether it is scriptural or a man made tradition or not. That I can definitely agree with.

And no, I have honestly never pictured you as somebody that would not recieve from anyone that might have something from the Lord to share.

In fact, what I wrote wasn't directed toward anyone in particular to be honest, but just something I felt I needed to share about myself.

[pastorb]

Amen, I understand :-)