Praise Dancers

[Grace]

Praise the Lord!!!

I am "new again" to this board and haven't posted in a long time, although I often read the threads.

At my church, they have recently started having praise dancers. I am seeing this more and more in the apostolic churches. In discussing it with others there are different view points. Some say it is sin and abomination and others feel the opposite. I am currently neutral but I would like to know if it is right or wrong, what are the scriptural references to back it up (right or wrong?) Does anyone else notice that this is becoming more and more a part of the apostolic church? All comments on this issue are welcome, I am praying that God will lead me to the absolute truth on this.

God Bless You All,

Grace.

[bishop1]

:bow:
Praise Dancers In The Church !
Oh YEAH, I'm For Them

What a glorious sight to see Mother Owens {95+/-} Dancing a Holy Dance and Praising God in the Spirit.

Heavy set Bro. Herb doing the Two Step under the Annointing when he cannot even keep time.

Someone singing a special song and the Holy Ghost Falls ---
You Talk About PRAISE DANCERS YEAH, WHEN THE HOLY GHOST BEGINS TO FALL,
Then and only Then
I'm all for Praise Dancers'
and Praise Singers'
and Praise Praisers',
and Praise Worshippers',
and Praise Preachers',
ETC.
:bow:
http://www.acts238holinessorhell.com[/URL]

[tufluv]

Yup, ditto to that, Bro. Holland, I now always get into the HOLY GHOST annointing, and dancin, jumpin, etc., and thats quite a feat, being I'm out of shape! But it' such beutiful liberty! Not everyone likes doing it or seeing it, but as for me-Halleluyah!!!

[Faithchild]

I am for complete liberty in worship. I have seen dancing in the aisles lift up Jesus. I have seen dancing in the aisles turn vulgar and sensual. I have seen wise elders sit down such a dancer. I trust the elders of the church to discern the spirit of the dancer.

I think it's wise to have a shawl available in case a dancer collapses to the floor. I have heard of special meetings in which the pastor's wife advises habitual women dancers about proper undergarments. Silly? I don't think so. For God may understand but visitors could perhaps misunderstand or be distracted by the personal physicality of the dancer and totally miss the spiritual point of dancing as a form of worship. We are not to let our good be evil spoken of.

[BroRutledge]

If we are talking about spontanious praise that results in dancing I am all for it. If we are talking about a group of people who are practicing dance steps and learning to dance in church count me out.
I refuse to be part of that.
God bless
BroRutledge

[Faithchild]

I'm in agreement with you, Bro. Rutledge. I know that the Temple of David had set movements but I'm not so sure that much of today's imitation isn't just flesh. But I'll leave the door open that God CAN use it. But I've never seen it and felt God in it myself.

[BroRutledge]

Amen

A few years ago I was preaching a revival meeting in a Church down south where the power of God moved and many received the Holy Ghost. It was truly an Apostolic Church and there was no doubt that the power of God was in that place.

One year later I returned to that same Church by invitation. The pastor told me that things were a little different now than they were a year before. Now they were having dance classes in the church one night each week, and the church had moved into a new diemension. The first night I was there I noticed an artificial worship that I had not seen the year before. The clothes, make up, hair, revealed that there had been some type of change in the hearts of the people and things were not the same as before.

I went to the dance practice on the second night of the revival since service was cancelled because of the dancing schedule. I became sick on the inside and found it to be against everything that I know to be of God.

I went to the pastor after the dance and cancelled my part of the rest of the revival. He tried to reason with me that we need to move forward with the times. The next day I left and I have never gone back.

To me this is disgusting, and it is a sign a falling away.

We do not have to teach people to dance in the spirit any more than we have to teach them to say ta ta ti ti so ko my si in order to know they received the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless the foundation of God still stands.

God bless
BroRutledge

[bishop1]

I am against preformances, wheither it be Dances, Singing, Musical specials and even Preformance Preaching.

I Am All For Worshipping and Praising GOD with All Of Our Hearts.

During a recent fellowship service I was getting sick of the preformances. A neighboring Pastor's wife was playing the organ while she was singing and suddenly we had a slight power failure. She became quiet and visibly upset because it interupted her preformance. The power came back on and she was asked to finish her song but she then went back to her seat. A trio then gave the latest McGruder type sound alike preformance.

I asked a lady to come up and sing , and the dear sister meekly came forward. She stated "Bro.Holland, You know I can't sing". I told her to just sing with all of her heart to The Lord. She sang a sing song version of the 1st verse of 'Thank God For The Blood'. With hands raised and tears streaming down her face, She was completely in tune by the time she got to the Chorus. The Power Of GOD Fell and people started for the Altar.

When The Holy Ghost Truly Falls
You Will Not Need Shawls & Coverings !
It Will Be Decent And In Order.

[nightwatchman]

You can blame it on T.B.N. .

[Adoniyah]

Yes, I have sadly seen such demonstrations of the flesh. The flesh absolutely insist upon inserting itself into the things of the Spirit. That praise dance fiasco is another attempt to insert itself thus vacating the presence and movement of the Holy Ghost.

As Bishop1 mentioned, the flesh is not limited to just dancing which is sickening, but flesh parading itself behind the pulpit is also sickening. It is hard to endure a preacher that struts his flesh.

1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Cr 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Cr 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1Cr 1:29 THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE.

The very attempt to imporove upon the wisdom and things of God are so utterly foolish as to be a product of hell. However, there is no limit to which unrestrained flesh will go to glorify itself.

Let us humble ourselves.

[Sandy]

Boy I have to agree with all that says no to this.

Reminds me of a dream someone had which involved people in the church being on this show boat performing.

But I do disagree that TBN is to blame though. Simply because TBN isn't forcing any church to participate in these things. Nor did satan make someone do it either. Nosiree. They are doing whatever they are doing because they have decided to do so all by themselves. Just as Bro. Rutledge decided to leave all by himself too, not being a part of it, bless you heart. I admire you for being honest enough to do so too, standing up for what you believe to be right no matter what. That is the way the Lord wants us to be I believe.

[bill]

I have a very bad feeling about the thought of "praise dancers". Worship ought to be spontanious and from the heart. We can have only a form of Godliness and praise can be a show instead of a real demonstration of the true power of God that changes hearts. The real thing can never be substituted for a performance type of "praise" service.

[Thelordisone]

Praise Him All,

"Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty!" And there is order.

If any person in serivice is out of order ie "dancing" yet hitting things or people you know its the flesh.

But how wonderful it is when the Almighty leads you. He will lead you thru an obstacle course and you wont even notice...Hallelluyah!! I LOVE MY GOD!!!!!!!!

God Bless All!!

[Blest]

14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

Because of this scripture, I am hesitant to judge someone who is dancing before the Lord -

Blest

[servant]

Grace,
I don't believe there should just be certain individuals in the church who are appointed to be "praise dancers." The tendency towards sitting back and letting them do it and be entertained is too great. Every Holy Ghost-filled believer in the church ought to be a "praise dancer!!!"

Serv :)

[Blest]

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

These scriptures indicate to me that we are to "Love God With All We Got In Us!" - Love Him/worship Him/Praise Him so much that we cannot contain it any longer and burst forth in dancing as an expression of that love!

MHO
Blest

[UPC Lady]

I agree with what you said Bro. Rutledge. If the Holy Ghost is moving and saints dance under the anointing that is one thing but for them to purposefully have and train praise dancers is something else entirely and something I do not agree with. To me that is becoming like the world to reach the world and that doesn't make sense to me. Oh and there is nothing like a saint singing under the divine inspiration and anointing of the Holy Ghost! Lord bless you all, UPC Lady

[Xerf]

I like the chapter Paul wrote regarding "Praise Dancers." Now where was that.....................???????//

[BroRutledge]

Xerf
Read Jude the second chapter verse 17.
God bless

[John Atkinson]

When David danced before the Lord it qualified as spontaneous worship. If BroRutldege started allowing charismatic "Praise Dancers" in Norwich Tabernacle, I would find a church that was still in truth to go to.

The next step from "Praise Dancers" is everyone singing in their "Prayer Language".

[En El]

I've seen many Apostolic churches where their choirs are now "swaying" in step to the music. Years ago, this would not have been tolerated. If praise dancers are wrong in the church because it's "reheresed" and not spontaneous worship, then what about choirs/musician's rehersing and practicing?? This is not spontaneous worship or praise either. Again, just man made rules keeping our big God in their little boxes.

[BroRutledge]

Holy Ghost is real. The Holy Ghost leading us is not man made rules. There are times when God will prompt the heart of the person who has the real Spirit of God, and this prompting is not man made rules but rather sensitive hearts tuned in to the real God of TRUTH knowing the voice of the great God who moves on them by the real power of the Real Holy Ghost in a world filled with plastic counterfeit.

When choirs and choir leaders approach the service in a spirit of prayer filled with the Holy Ghost you can tell it. There is a difference in the swaying of a choir that does this for entertainment and spontanious swaying that is the result of the moving of the spirit of God.

I have seen it both ways. The only way to descern whether it is real or fake without being judgmental in the flesh is to have the Real Holy Ghost and know the voice of the Real God who knows his real children.

One step in the wrong direction can lead to many steps that end up with people who could have been blessed being cursed by the mighty God that they walked away from one step at a time.

God bless,
BroRutledge

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by En El
I've seen many Apostolic churches where their choirs are now "swaying" in step to the music. Years ago, this would not have been tolerated. If praise dancers are wrong in the church because it's "reheresed" and not spontaneous worship, then what about choirs/musician's rehersing and practicing?? This is not spontaneous worship or praise either. Again, just man made rules keeping our big God in their little boxes. Good point! We've got rehearsing singers who are singing in the name of Jesus. We have rehearsing musicians playing in the name of Jesus.

Why not rehearsing dancers who are committed as much as singers and musicians, dancing in the name of Jesus?

Trust me, I know of dancers in the flesh.

But I also know of many dancers committed, just as much as singers and musicians, to dance before the Lord. They can in the midst of their prepared dancing, dance spontaneously, just as much as musicians and singers can sing and play "spontaneously".

[Xerf]

Like it was said, and quite well at that, "Worship is EVERYBODY'S business!"

Praise dancers are an entertainment function with spectators! God never meant for worship to be such!

:"laugh with them that laugh...." etc......in other words EVERYONE get in the act!

AMEN????

[Sandy]

Well, JbenJesus, you do have a valid point there. In fact, most Church services are planned at least somewhat, are they not?
I never thought of that.

Maybe I have just never seen any anointed dancing before?

[Sandy]

I should rephrase that last sentence to read, maybe I have just never seen any planned anointed dancing before.

[BroRutledge]

I know I am a bit old fashioned, and I suppose it is because I have seen so many things. I have learned through the years that the best thing to do is to look to God regardless of what others may or may not do and worship anyhow. It is easy to become distracted by things that do not appear to be proper. Many of my blessings come as a result of looking to God in the midst of things that may or may not be pleasing to God.

I draw some lines for myself that others may not agree with and that is no problem.

You may find me practicing for a choir song, and if I am in a choir that is being directed to sway back and forth for the glory of God I will join in. I don't really have a problem with that. But there is something inside me that just will not let me join with the flow toward the charasmatic movement. There are some lines that I will not cross and if I offend anybody with my stand, please forgive me and keep posting the way you see it. I have no problem if others do not see my convictions.

God bless
BroRutledge

[John Atkinson]

As for me an my house, I have visited charismatic churches and seen enough fakery to embarass a snake-oil salesman. To see that spirit in Apostolic Churches makes me want to weep.

When an Apostolic Church has to resort to spectacles and such like, that church is backslidden and in dire need of a move of the real God, not the TBN-Charisma-Playacting God. Like Bro Rutledge, I want no part of it.

I would rather go to a real church with 20 people in it than to a charistolic church with a thousand people doing their dance and learning their prayer language.

Well, the basement we are in used to be the meeting place of the Glory Church, a charismatic assembly. Before that they were known as Heart-to-Heart Ministries, then the pastor's wife split and married Robert Tilton for a little while before ditching him to sell cosmetics. So, the few left over became Glory Church and then after a bit that fizzled, and the people are scattered.

Why, because there is no keeping power in fakery. We have no truck with what the charismatic crowd does.

I could begin listing a couple of solid UPC churches, just in Connecticut, that gave place to that spirit, today they do not even preach the truth anymore. I won't because I will give no place to the devil.

Hear a certain sound from Apostolic Network Ministries, we are Old Time Apostolic Non-Compromise Truth People. And we will stay such.

I don't say that to flame anyone here for what they allow. I do it so people know of a certainty where the ministry that runs the GNC stands.

[drummerboy_dave]

I feel the same way, BroRutledge.

I really am surprised by your last post, J.

Why not rehearsing dancers who are committed as much as singers and musicians, dancing in the name of Jesus?

There is absolutely, no comparison between a singer or musician, practicing; and the need for "praise dancers" to somehow, enhance the ministry value of a song.

[UPC Lady]

Dear Bro. Rutledge, I appreciate the stand you take for this beautiful truth! Though I'm only in my 40's I've been called old fashioned for many years and it doesn't bother me at all. The older I become the more I appreciate the privilege of living for God and knowing Him in the power of the Holy Ghost! There are many whom are lost and need to know and possess what we have. I want to do my part in reaching them. Though I was raised in truth I didn't receive the Holy Ghost until I was 21. However what matters is not what I was, but it is what I am now and what I am going to be. I grew up in a family who not only loves truth but lives it as well as preaches it. I thank the Lord for a praying grandmother, aunt and uncle who never gave up on me. I learned by their example, not only by what they said but by the way they lived. I thank the Lord daily for my rich heritage! I'm also thankful for my convictions! I also thank the Lord for a Pastor who walks in the Spirit and follows the leading of the Holy Ghost in our services. Lord bless you all, UPC Lady

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by drummerboy_dave
I feel the same way, BroRutledge.

I really am surprised by your last post, J.



There is absolutely, no comparison between a singer or musician, practicing; and the need for "praise dancers" to somehow, enhance the ministry value of a song. No comparison, huh? Not in the least...? Not even a tincy wincy little shread for the sake of argument?

Ok. I got no bones to pick with anybody here concerning this.

This really is a non-issue to me. I just see a valid comparison to singers who practice and rehearse their own talents, and musicians who practice and rehearse their own talents, and dancers who practice and rehearse their own talents.

I don't negate the possibility of the flesh in much of the prepared dance we see today. But being honest, I think we can all say the same can be said for some singers and musicians.

I would just like to comment that the scriptures do not use the phrase "Dancing in the Spirit". Not that anyone mentioned it here, but is does use the simple phrase "Dancing before the Lord".

There can be times where the Spirit of the Lord will quicken individuals or groups to rejoice, exalt, leap, and jump before the Lord. And there are times when you just want to shout "JEEEEESUUUUS!!!" and dance in joy and gratitude because you love Him, but not necessarily out of a quickening. The whole desire, whether it springs from a quickening of the Lord or a desire of your heart, is to glorify the Lord with your whole being.

Musicians and singers are not quickened at each moment to play what they play and sing what they sing, but their heart should be to glorify the Lord.

I simply put those that desire to come together and prepare dancing as a group to be the same thing.

Musicians get together to plan crescendo's or low points in the music to give opportunity for different moves of God during praise and worship. You don't always want praise, praise, praise, but you also want moments of worship that's a bit quieter and bit slower.

I don't see why a group of dancer's can't do the same. Except they plan dances in accordance with the music.

Musicians, singers, and dancers are preparing, practicing, and rehearsing to be ready, but regardless, we're always trying to be sensitive to the move of His Spirit.

There are many expressions of worship - singing, playing instruments, and dancing to name a few.

But like I said, I'm not here to argue. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from how the feel. Bro. Rutledge and Bro. Atkinson shared their viewpoint. I simply shared many in contrast (not so much in disagreement, but I could say the same thing about the "flesh" thing for singers and players of instruments).

I love you all, regardless. :)

Some of you mentioned the "charismatics" and implied in a sense "well look where that has lead them." I think that's kind of unfair. Some of them, are not lost because they plan dancing. Some are lost because they got wrong doctrine.

[committed]

I agree with BroRutledge, I believe in worship...with all our hearts, but it MUST be from the heart. When you have certain picked out to be the praisers, then it becomes more ritualistic instead of spontaneous. If people praise God because the words to the song say something to their heart and move them to dance, shout, run, jump or stand there and cry.....I know in my heart that God is pleased. When we do these things because someone has appointed us to do it, something is lost. I personally would be tormented as to whether I was doing it for my God or to please my pastor. That aught not be! What I do must come from my heart to my God, and only that!

[pastorb]

Committed,

As I look in 1st Chronicles 15 I find that David Appointed Musicians over the praise and worship of the return of the ark of the Covenant.

David had Skilled musicians, they were skilled because they practiced their craft. I am a Drummer of 14 years and all of you know being in church when I first started, I could only play after church, rehersal or night service. It wasn't until I became skilfill and could keep up that I was able to play in the morning.

The choir would rehearse until the song was right and they were not professionals but their desire to give God their best was.

Why should it be any different dancers if their desire is to present God with their best? Then he will anoint the rest., right.

Now as for the topic of dancers, I can live with or without them, they don't make or break a service for me. But whoever it is and what ever it is, it should be done in a spirit of excellence and that means to practice and perfect your craft for Jesus.

Howmany of You have ever preached into a tape for the purpose of hearing your delivery, or a mirror, and asked your spouses opinion ablout a point you want to bring out in service? I have!

[Grace]

Praise the Lord Everyone!!
God is so awsome and mighty!!! When I think of His Goodness and Awsomeness, His mightiness, His lovingkindness, His mercifulness, I get so excited that my heart skips a beat because He is my FIRST LOVE!

With that said, I appreciate all of the responses to my question on "Praise Dancers". I can truly see both sides of the issue. However, I am still left with it unanswered. Does anyone have any "Scriptural Basis" on which you base your opinion? There are many Jesus Name, tongue talking, sanctified walking, "apostolic" doctrine, churches that are implementing this in the church. I don't want to be caught up in something that is not of God. However, I don't want to judge something as sin/wrong, without scripture to back it up. I do not believe in adding to nor taking away from the Word of GOD. And, I have not found a scripture that details "how" to dance before the Lord. Psalms 149 and 150 says to "praise him with dance" as well as a number of other ways to praise Him, but it doesn't indicate that it is under the influence or power of the Holy Spirit (anointing) any more than singing or playing an instrument may be. This issue matters to me becuase the church I attend is implementing this, and as I said, I don't want to be part of anything that's not GOD. All responses are appreciated!!

God Bless You all,

Grace.

[pastorb]

Hve you discussed this with your pastor and praise leader to see their heart in this issue and where God is leading them and if they have scriptural basis for it?

That would be the thing to do.

[Blest]

Jben -
I would just like to comment that the scriptures do not use the phrase "Dancing in the Spirit". Not that anyone mentioned it here, but is does use the simple phrase "Dancing before the Lord".

That's a very good point!

To all -

Has anyone ever begun to dance before the Lord and then felt the anointing as God blesses them? Oh, yeah! Praise God!

Similarily, when I first started going to the Apostolic church, I didn't raise my hands to worship. It was something I learned to do. And it wasn't easy at first. The enemy would tell me how 'foolish' it would look. Same thing with dancing, that old spirit of fear, had me bound by worrying about what someone else might think!

I find these forms of worship are pleasing to Him. And the way I know it's pleasing, is He blesses me -- so big!

The anointing follows the worship.

Blest

[ddc101]

Hi all, I am a bit slow since this is my work week but heres my take on the fake.
I am sorry but if people are prayed up and dead to self then they will worship the whole service long and amen the preacher and get with it.Sure we all have bad days but we need to do it in faith.
The last time I saw praise dancer stuff was in Charisma Magazine.
They did an article on it back in the 80's. Seems pointless to me.
I took ballet classes all of my life and they did me no good because when I get out in the aisle and offer worship and praise to my Jesus...believe me it isn't rehearsed.I wonder if they are talking about the kind of dancing for the glory of men or the glory of God....there is a difference....lv sis.c

[BroRutledge]

The only dance I know is the bunny hop. I guess I could train our praise team to lead the church in it. It may be interesting. :D

He's God on the platform
(left foot)out - in - out - in (both hands on left leg)

He's God back at the door
(right foot)out - in - out - in (both hands on right leg)

He's God in the amen cornor
----jump forward----jump back (hands on waist)

He's God all over the floor
----hop-----hop------hop (hands form rabbit ears over head)


I know God is God
(left foot)out - in - out - in (both hands on left leg)

And God won't ever change
(right foot)out - in - out - in (both hands on right leg)

I know God is God
----jump forward----jump back (hands on waist)

And Jesus is his name
------hop---hop---hop (remember the rabbit ears)

wooooooooooohoooooooooooooooooo

Maybe we could start a new organized movement.

BUNNY HOPPERS INTERNATIONAL THE BHI
:jk:;)

[Sandy]

Bro. John,
In light of your last comment regarding Charismatics learning to speak in tongues, that is not true. Yes, I have heard of this going on, but I personally have to tell you that I know of no Charismatics during the years I was one of them that "learned" to speak in tongues, anymore than those of the house of Cornelius did. They simply are not baptized into Jesus Christ because of being taught doctrinal error, thus needing to be told by those that know better. Unfortunately, these people didn't have a Peter around to tell them the truth.

True, you may not have meant it the way it sounded to me, but wanted to comment on it anyway, if for no other reason than to say that this isn't true for all certainly. In other words, just because some want to believe they never received the Holy Ghost, they have, and the fact that they can is written in the scriptures in Acts 10:43-46.

Please forgive me too, for being rather touchy about pointing thiis out. But I have spent a lot of time witnessing on Trinitarian boards. And I hate it when some of them point out some Apostolic Church that is flawed, thus doing a lot of harm to the congregation, as if this is what all Apostolic churches are about. But I also do not like it either, when someone here says something that makes them appear as if they do not have anything from God as well, whether intentional or not. Because that is also not true either. How do I know? Because I was one of them once, on my trek to finding the true way. But what God had done in my life during that time was not fake. And many of them are doing the same.

And yes, there has been ill done on both sides, and continues to be done every day. In fact I believe some Trinitarians would carry on with what was done during the Crusades to the Apostolics, they hate us that much. Just as some Jews hated the Christians, and probably still dol. But if we have the truth, then we are the ones responsible for giving our lives to take it to them as well as anyone else in this world that might be lost, loving them anyway, no matter what they do, or even have done in the past, following the example of Stephen, who gave his very life to preach the gospel to the Jews that did not know the way either IMHO. Not that many are not doing so today either. But I also see hatred spewing from both sides. And that had not ought to be for those that truly know and walk in the love of God rather than the gaul of bitterness because of being persecuted by some.

One thing you did that was very wise Brothers, was to close this off to the public, only allowing them to read what is written in a certain area. That was a very wise decision IMHO, because of some of the things that are said here, which would only run most off from ever receiving the truth from those of us that have it. Because it is love that draws others into truth when shared, not speaking words that put them down. But rather a sharing of His Word in love. Doing otherwise is similar to speaking words against ones family essentially. I can talk about my sister and brother, or even my children. But just let someone else do the same, and I get upset to say the least. And we do the same regarding our spiritual families too I suppose. Even those that used to be our families as well. At least I do, but I do about the Charismatics as well as the Apostolics, because I have a deep abiding love for them still, even though I know beyond a shadow of a doubt they are not right doctrinally, God proving this over and over again to me, not just thru man, but from the Lord Himself. But I also know speaking words that put them down are not going to bring them to the truth too, but rather the Word given in love and prayer is what does this for everyone, and not just the religious. But we also need to know, that what they already do have is not necessarily fake either, when the scriptures prove differently to us.

And with that, this old lady is outa here, that is till later.

:angel:

[dllong]

I was raised in a Jewish home (mom is Jewish). In 1977 I was young, but deep down knew I needed something to fill that spiritual void inside me. I attended a UPC church in March of that year and after the sermon I ran to the alter to repent. To make a long testemony very short; After about an hour of tears, I began speaking in a language I had never learned. No one told me how to do it and I never knew there was such a thing! Several people around had been speaking in an unknown tongue, but I was so naive that I thought they were foreigners. I had NEVER read the Christian Bible until after that time. The Holy Ghost to me was just something you found vaguely mentioned in the Torah. IF there are any churches out there "teaching" people to talk in tongues, SHAME ON YOU!

In Jesus, my Messiah

Dave Long

[Apostolic Kitty]

Dancing is not the only thing that can be done in the flesh. I have seen prophecies, preaching and music done in the flesh just the same as I have seen all these done under the anointing.

Several years ago I was in worship to the Lord in my living room and sat down on the end of my coffee table. As I sat there the Lord showed me a vision of dancing. I proceeded to get up and dance as I saw....and, believe me...I am no dancer. I can still remember that dance.

On another occassion I can recall going to a meeting about dancing and, as I joined, the Lord did a work in me and set me free from some things that I can't even recall now except that there were a lot of tears and pain involved. Only the anointing can do that.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Br. dllong,

What an awesome testimony. I will be sure to share it with the cats as they prepare the broth for the Dave stew. :P

[dllong]

Meow!!!!!

[pastorb]

I thought that was the Hokie pokie?

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by pastorb
Why should it be any different dancers if their desire is to present God with their best? Then he will anoint the rest., right.

Now as for the topic of dancers, I can live with or without them, they don't make or break a service for me. But whoever it is and what ever it is, it should be done in a spirit of excellence and that means to practice and perfect your craft for Jesus.
Amen, Bro. "b",

Sometimes bad experiences dull our perception and vision of the possibility of the Spirit's redeeming power in something.

[BroRutledge]

Sis Sandy

It is quite common here in new England for Charasmatics to teach people to speak in tongues. There are even booklets that are printed in some of the Charasmatic Churches that we have looked at when we visited these Churches with instructions on how to speak in tongues. One of the booklets gave samples on how to get started. Example: ti le ki to si mi to si ....etc The people who do not know how to speak in tongues are instructed to repeat these written tongues until it becomes comfortable and often they are instructed to sing and praise only in tongues.

I am not saying that your experience is not correct, but I am also saying that bro John was not wrong in what he said.

In my travels I have also spent time with charasmatic leaders who turned tongues on at will and what I observed was something that is not speaking in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance. It sounded like the real thing, but it was not of God.

There may be sincere chrasmatics out there who get the real thing, but if they do it will lead them into all truth. Thousands of charasmatics that I have been around are not going toward truth at all but rather fight against it, and people like me are seen by them as heritic and the spirit in them says that Jesus name baptism is of the devil and that to deny the trinity is a sin. Some of these people I have preached to for many years. They speak in fake tongues, serve a fake three person god, and when the real thing is presented to them they call it a lie.

One Charasmatic preacher that fought us here in Norwich for 15 years came into my office speaking in tongues and told me that my doctrine of Jesus name and the teaching that denied the trinity was straight from the pits of hell and he tried to rebuke the devil out of me before I threw him out.

That same pastor had a rather large congregation in the building that we now occupy. They had classes where they taught dancing, and speaking in tongues.

While all of this is true, it is also true that there are many charasmatics who are very sincere. It takes much patience to win them to the truth. We are working with several charasmatic individuals at this time in the state of Arkansas. My mother is teaching them in her home, and they are going forward learning about the truth concerning the real experience that they have received. They really do speak in tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance and they are being baptized one by one in the name of Jesus.

Charasmatic will fellowship with you as long as you let them feel that they are alright like they are. Our experience has taught us that when we try to fellowship and mix with them, they tend to dominate the local assembly with fake descernment of spirits, and take new converts away as fast as we can pray them through.

God bless
BroRutledge

[Sandy]

Yes, I have heard this is true in some places. I think I even mentioned it was. I don't deny there are many things that are very wrong going on. I think it was the way it was put that bothered me, even though I did not think he probably meant everyone at the time. Even when I read it I didn't take it personal.

I don't mean to be a pain either. But you will also have to admit there are many apostolics that do not believe someone that has not been baptized into Jesus Christ yet cannot have received the Holy Ghost, but have received some kind of an evil spirit that is causing them to speak in tongues, or else they are faking it, especially the Trinitarian Charismatics. And that is the reason it bothered me. Because I know it is not true at all. And not because he was accusing me personally of not having this baptism.

Bro. Rutledge, most of what I write isn't directed only to one person. I have a tendency to start out speaking to someone specific, but then end up talking to anyone at random in the next paragraph, failing to specify this fact. And that was what I did in that post.

I have never been to the New England states. Been just about everywhere else, but east in the US. So I know that what goes on in one place, may not be the case in another section of the country too, that is true. I also know what went on during the 1970's in the Charismatic churches when I began with the Lord as that Charismatic tongue talker, isn't going on today at all either. You never heard of anyone teaching others how to speak in tongues, or schools of prophecy then. Nor did you hear of anyone saying you was Holy Ghost filled that I know of if you didn't speak in tongues either, at least when and where I began, like you hear taught today. In fact, some apostolics even teach this as well, which IMHO is very sad. Because I believe the scriptures tell us this gift is for all believers, because of it not being one of the 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost listed in 1st Cor. chapter 12 even though it is referred to in the same language. Which is why so many have confused it to be the same I believe.

So Bro. John, if I misunderstood you, please accept my apologies.

[BroDane]

Amen Bro Rutledge, I was a dedicated part of that charismatic crowd from 1985 to 1995.

What I have now is REAL..Peace that passes understanding that just cant be faked, Joy that when I praise God..I PRAISE God and dont care what people think of how loud I am or if i jump,roll,speak in tounges!

Charismatic false teaching just dont cut it!! :eek:

[Xerf]

Saved--Sanctified--Holy Ghost Baptism

Thats the teaching in trinitarian circles.

Which is 180* out from the Bible whih teaches:

Holy Ghost Baptism (full obedience to Acts 2:38)--Sanctified BY the Spirit--Saved (if you continue in the Spirit).

No one can be taught to speak in real tongues (they can mimic sounds)--but it is "AS THE SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE!"

<>

[BroRutledge]

Sis Sandy
Keep up the good writing. You are highly respected and we love you very much.

Here is one of several examples of the type of teaching that concernes me.

This is part of a charasmatic tract.

While you are sitting, follow this instruction. Open your mouth wide and breathe in. You are not going to receive anything more spiritually; you are now going to manifest the spirit's presence. Just breathe in. Open your mouth wide. While you are breathing in, thank God for having filled you with the fullness of the power of His holy spirit. Don't beg Him; thank Him for it.
When you begin to speak in tongues, move your lips, your throat, your tongue. Speak forth. When you have finished one sound, speak another. Do not pay any attention to what you are thinking. You formulate the words; you move your lips, your throat your tongue; you say it. You are magnifying God no matter what the words sound like to your ears. It is your part to speak in tongues; it is God's part to give the utterance.
Keep moving your lips, your throat and tongue. Formulate another sound. You have to formulate the sounds differently on your lips. God has given them to your spirit. They are in your spirit coming on your tongue; you have to speak them out. You are speaking the wonderful works of God; you are magnifying God; you are speaking in tongues. The external manifestation is your proof in the senses realm that you have Christ within and that you are joint heirs with Him. Get bold in it; let it flow out; let it effervesce. "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." Keep on speaking. God is giving the words to your spirit; your spirit is bringing them up to your throat, and you are bringing them out.
If you can speak one word, you can speak ten thousand words; because if you can speak one word, you have the power, the God-given ability, to speak more. Every time you speak remember that you are edifying yourself spiritually, building yourself up.
Anybody who knows even the slightest bit about languages knows that "beep, beep, beep," would not be speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is speaking a developed language. Now once more speak in tongues. Just get quiet. Move your lips, throat, and tongue, and start speaking again. Keep on speaking. You are speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God. This is the greatness of God's wonderful power to you as a believer. Worship God in spirit and in truth by speaking in tongues much in your private prayer life and you will experience and enjoy a glorious walk with your heavenly Father.



Here is another one

HOW TO SPEAK A LANGUAGE
YOU NEVER LEARNED

By Peter Barfoot
What do you think about when you hear someone say Wooloomooloo, Goondawindi, or Wagga Wagga?

Yes, these are all aboriginal names, but what do they mean? If you speak them without knowing what they mean, you speak in an unknown tongue!

True, that unknown tongue, or language, is not inspired by the Spirit of God. But it is an unknown tongue, because you don't know the meaning of the words. What is a Wooloomooloo? What does Goondawindi mean? And who or what is a Wagga Wagga?

Yes, all are place-names, but if you don't know the original meanings, you are speaking a language you never learned. The difference between this unknown tongue and the spiritual gift of tongues is that the first comes from your mind, whereas the second comes from your spirit. But to be understood, both tongues need to be interpreted.

Many years ago, I studied the Japanese language. In order to speak Japanese correctly, I listened repeatedly to the recorded sounds of that language as I read a matching book of Japanese words and phrases.

Much to my surprise, while repeating these previously unknown sounds, I had a recurring desire to speak in tongues - a God-given gift mentioned by the apostle Paul in First Corinthians, chapter 12, verse10, and repeatedly all through chapter 14. Thinking this strange, I wondered what the connection was, and then realised that the more I tried to sound Japanese (as distinct from trying to speak Japanese), I found it easy to continue in another unknown tongue - my spiritual language!

Because my mind was not familiar with the strange new sounds coming from my mouth, and therefore was unable to process what I was saying, my spirit sought the fluency and freedom of a tongue that required no understanding.
So the Japanese tongue was a "bridge" that I crossed to reach the freedom of expression available through my spiritual tongue.

I had been baptised in the Holy Spirit for many years, before discovering this "bridge" principle, and had enjoyed the sense of fulfillment that had come through speaking in tongues. Understanding how the gift worked helped me to appreciate the biblical gift of tongues more than ever.

How many in your church speak in tongues in a mechanical way, rather than with the fluency of expression enjoyed by the apostles on the Day of Pentecost, or the church at Corinth? No doubt many have the gift of tongues - the ability to speak in an unknown language when praying to God, but seem unable to speak with any real enjoyment. There is as much difference between an anointed tongue and a 'mechanical' one as there is between a new car and one that badly needs a tune-up!

The twin gifts of tongues and interpretation bring life to a church service, blessing those who hear as well as those who speak - but only when those gifts flow freely and fluently!

Do you desire to speak in tongues fluently? First spend time alone in prayer and praise. The tongue and the subsequent interpretation will then bless the whole church. Those present will know that the gift is the overflow from a thankful heart. As well, the tongue will build up the spirit of the person speaking.

Mobilize your mind to think on the things of God before as well as during the time you speak in tongues.; the result will help you to appreciate this long misunderstood and much maligned spiritual gift.

Don't be afraid of being a little emotional! You wouldn't dream of saying "I love you" to someone you really care for in an expressionless monotone. You would say "I love you!" You would say it with feeling. You would want that person to know how much you care!

How much more then should you speak in tongues to God in a way that will convey to Him your love and appreciation for all that He has done for you!

The most vital ingredient in a love relationship is the communication, in a clear and caring way, of one person's feelings for the other. God has declared His love for you so many times, in so many ways. He waits for your response - and speaking in the love language of an unknown tongue is a wonderful way for you to respond!

Oh, and by the way, Wooloomooloo means "twirling around", Goondawindi is "a place of wild ducks", and Wagga Wagga means "a place of many crows". Now say Talangatta, Tallebudgera, Coolangatta, Cunamulla and Oodnadatta.

Whoops! There you go again - speaking in an unknown tongue!

---

These teachings have part truth and part non-truth and are therefore dangerous to the new believer.

God bless

[John Atkinson]

Hi Sandy, I never intended to offend, It is just that I have watched and observed a lot. By nature I am a cynic. and have had to invest a lot of prayer into the "believeth all things" bit.

In every instance that I have personally witnessed, the charismatic movement infiltration into Jesus name churches has led to more people in a powerless congregation, with the same forced exuberance that I have observed in trinitarian charismatics.

So I am not against charismatics, many of them are sincere. And many sincere people who wanted God were destroyed when the group I mentioned fell apart because powerless leaders with a form of godliness failed them.

The "fake it till you make it" method isn't all that successfull. Often people end up just faking it and never making it.

The key is "make it then you won't have to fake it" And the key to making it is found in the old time One God Apostolic Jesus Name Holy Ghost Holiness or Hell truth that sets people free from sin, hypocrisy and false religion. Nothing more is needed, anything less is unacceptable. And to stand on those things is not phariseeism. It is what Paul stood for, Peter, James, John, Timothy, Titus...all of them.

These straight discussions are why I made this invisible to the public. We are here for sincere charismatics who want to really know the real God. And there will always be trinitarians in their discussion groups who will have bad things to say about Apostolics. The reason is that according to our doctrine they are Hell bound. And that makes them angry. Thus we are a bunch of judgemental pharisees who hate everybody who ain't just like us.

In most cases that is not the truth, in many it is, but in most it isn't.

But we won't win them by becoming what they are. To many of them we are just a cult anyway, right on the shelf with Mormons and JW's. So, I really care less what they think about us. We have what they need. And we gotta offer it in love. But the Love of God is without compromise.

It is a dangerous thing to change the order of our services to include charismatic style activity. We don't do them justice by meeting them halfway. They need us to stand.

This world is in grave danger at this moment. I do not believe people realize how bad things really can become very quickly. A self sufficient and self obsessed people may suddenly find that they need a real God. I sure hope some of us will still be around to offer them something besides a prayer language and a praise dance.

[Apostolic Kitty]

Very dangerous indeed, Bro. Rutledge!

So glad I got the real thing!

[Sandy]

Yes I agree totally Bro. John. I have never compromised what I believe to be truth ever. Nor will I. Not that it has not been tempting at times. But if you know truth, and you do not tell it, my Bible says that one will be responsible for their sin. And I don't want to be responsible for anothers sin, since my Bible also suggests that we are scarecely saved according to what is written in 1st Peter 4:18. So when I speak of going in the love of God, I am not talking about holding back truth. In fact the opposite is true if you walk in the love of God to begin with. Because love doesn't rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth,so therefore to rejoice we have to be speaking it to others to begin with.

Bro. Rutledge, that is sick, sick, sick to think that anyone can be taught to pray in tongues. Isn't it a shame how gullible some people really are to believe such tripe. But they do, because of not even reasoning out what they are being told. There is surely many things that are not Spirit moved, done by people all of the time, but is fleshly because of getting hyped up by some charismatic figure that causes their flesh to get excited. I have seen this before many times, even during what they think is worship, but really is nothing but the same kind of excitement you get when you go to a ball game and your team is winning. I am sure you all know what I mean. And I would say this same principle is used to make someone else believe they are baptized in the Holy Ghost too.

Yes, I have seen a lot of junk too. But that one I have not seen, where they teach tongues. The devil probably didn't want me to see that one, saying to himself, keep that girl out of this, because she has a big mouth, and might end up foiling our plans by telling what is going on. Because one thing I hate, is what has been done to men because of the lies regarding Gods foundational principles, let alone the rest. Simply because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you do not begin right, then neither are you going to end right either. But I know there are many out there struggling just like I was for all those years because of being lied to, but not really knowing what was wrong, because of being told they have all there is.

I will never forget something that happened in a church I attended not to long before Al and I were baptized in His name finally. At the time, we did not know we were not in Christ though. And this church had some big shot come and preach during a revival, and asked certain ones to come down and help pray for those that came to the alter that night, Al and I being one of them. There was this girl that had come from Okla to Joplin Missouri, where we lived at the time that we prayed for. And I will never forget how she cried and cried because of her deep desire to walk in righteousness, but couldn't seem to no matter how much she tried, asking us to pray for her. It grieved me so, because little did she know one of those that that was praying for her desired the same thing, but didn't know what to tell her, because of not having the answer. So all she could do was just to pray to God for her. Which we did. But I was heartbroken for her none the less. After I came to the truth I have often thought of that lady, and prayed for her many many times since then, asking the Lord just to send someone to show her the way to what I know in my own heart, was her hearts desire. And how many there are like her too that are deceived. And yes, we can sit and say that God will show them the way. But the truth is, He isn't going to without us, according to what Rm. 10:14--15 says. Because He has entrusted us to go. Everyone that is saved is sent already, because His Word says so. Not just those that are walking in the ministry gifts, but anyone that is His disciple indeed is told to go and tell the good news to whoever God puts in their path. Wherever they work or whatever they are doing. Neither should we wait for them to come to church either. If you are saved, then you are anointed to bring others to the Lord too I believe. Many are trying to figure out what their ministry is, when it is already there right before them to begin with. But alas, sometimes we cannot see the forest for the trees.

[BroDane]

When I was searching for God some time ago I was praying and asking Gods will for my life. I was not baptised in Jesus yet.

I asked God what his will was for my life, Painter? Janitor? ect..

One day I was reading the christian digest ( Readers digest with a bible twist..lol) In it was a article about a man asking God the same question...

A elder spoke to the young man and said do what you do as unto the Lord! and he did! and became a Millionaire House painter!

Then I read this and KNEW it was ( and still is ) Gods will for my life:

Eccl 12: 13 All has been heard; the end of the matter is: Fear God [revere and worship Him, knowing that He is] and keep His commandments, for this is the whole of man [the full, original purpose of his creation, the object of God's providence, the root of character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to all inharmonious circumstances and conditions under the sun] and the whole [duty] for every man. :tup:

[ddc101]

Sister Sandy,
I used to be charismatic and help teach "Life in the Spirit Seminiars." I know for a fact it is taught to the seeker to just begin to babble and God will take over.They are told just to start saying la la la la or dadadada and the Holy Ghost will do the rest so consequently in many folks none of the rest gets done.And then they develop a shacondela,shacondela shacondela.....I am living testimony to this and can give you time,dates,names,which seminars etc.Thank God for truth.lv sis.c

[bishop1]

" LEARN HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES "

Let me show you a simple fool-proof system.

GUARANTEED SYSTEM !

I HAVE FOUND THE ANSWER !

SEND NO MONEY
Just Follow Directions Carefully.

# 1 - Get a KJV Bible
# 2 - Go to te New Testament.
# 3 - Read the second chapter of Acts.
# 4 - Go back and read Acts 2:37/42.
# 5 - Obey Acts 2:38

* Some people may tell you that you've got the
HolyGhost by Faith and that you will speak in tongues
later.
That Is The devil's Hog Wash !
EVERY PERSON THAT RECEIVES THE HOLY GHOST
ALLWAYS GETS IT THE SAME WAY !
They Speak With Tongues As The Spirit Gives
the Utterance !
Everybody gets the same amount !
They get Filled To Overflowing !
That Means That They Can't Hold Any More !


SECRET FOR FUTURE SUCCESS;

Find a secret/special Prayer Place.{just you and God}
Go to that place every day.
Fast and spend time communicating with Him.
Begin to spend more time in fasting and prayer.
{And then you will find it easier to spend more time
fasting and praying}

[Sandy]

Hi DDC,

Yes, I am not doubting for a minute this is true, but am just saying that I was never told to do such a thing, nor do I personally know anyone else that was either. But nobody can experience personally every little thing that goes on out there. Not even within all of the Apostolic churches as well. Which was really my point regarding a lot of what is printed out there regarding this or that fellowship, then assuming that all of them do the same. Nor should anyone IMHO believe that some that has not been baptized in His name has not received the baptism in the Holy Ghost, simply because it is scriptural to receive before. And since with God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, just because someone isn't baptised in His name immediately after that, doesn't mean that God isn't going to baptize that one in the Holy Ghost either. Because he has and does do so still. What everyone needs to be certain of, is whether they have indeed received themselves. Especially someone that was taught to speak in tongues, which is not scriptural at all, but is a lot of hog wash. Just as someone being taught to prophecy is as well, which goes on too. Because you do not teach someone to walk in anything God has for anyone, and have it be authentic. You cannot even teach someone essentially to walk in the ministry gifts either, and have this be of the Lord. Yes, one is able to receive teaching of the Word. And someone can even get very adept at getting up in the pulpit and become very adept at fooling the people too into thinking they are a pastor, evangelist or what have you. But that does not mean they have been called and anointed to be such of the Lord. In fact, I wonder sometimes just how many pastors are really pastors and etc. to begin with, and simply not someone that desired to preach the gospel to the lost, getting sidetracked into believing this to be their calling by God to be that pastor & etc. Because I believe God places a heavy desire on everyone that knows Him to go and preach the good news to others. As some have shared here, we are all called to preach, but not all are called to pastor or walk in any of the other ministry gifts that are listed in Ephesians at all. And because of this desire, if not directed by an anointed pastor, that one can get side tracked into thinking he is called into the ministry himself. And so what does that one do? He runs and learns to be what He thinks He is supposed to do, even becoming pretty good at it, but still not having the anointing from the Lord. Maybe that is one of the reasons some cave in, falling away too. But we certainly cannot deny it happens can we? Or maybe that is why some have what we famously call "burn out", either not being ready to take on the responsibility of doing this, or else not called and anointed by God at all. I don't know for sure. But it would seem to me that while one may get tired for a couple of days, flesh getting in the way for a time, there is no such thing as burn out under Gods anointing, if that one is doing what the Lord has for them to do.
Something to think about anyway.

I have been on Trinitarian forums witnessing where someone would come up with a page written supposedly by another person from that church that had experienced a lot of pain as a result of the pastor having an affair, along with several other web sites that had been put on the net regarding why others had left these affiliations as well. Which I am sure most of you know are out there, and some may even be true. And of course this poster was posting these URL's in an attempt to put down what we were sharing indirectly, even though it had nothing to do with what we were sharing, which was simply Word, to begin with. Which I politely informed them of as well. Because what one does should not be viewed as the norm for all. And that was my point only. And was not to say it wasn't done at all, even by many, as I heard it to begin with back in the 70's, but knew then it was not right.

Yes, Sister Dana, I knew you was Charismatic at one time too. Was you Catholic Charismatic during that time? My husband was also Catholic as a child, but he left the church once he got out on his own because of knowing they were not right at all. Sort of like my great great Irish grandfather did as well. He surely is now out of purgatory too, since his sister gave all her riches to the church to get him our of there, dieing a pauper, or so the story goes. :D Of course,you know I am kidding now.

[stmatthew]

The sad fact is that there are now Apostolic Churches that are teaching folks how to talk in tongues. I have seen with my own eye's a lady praying for the Holy Ghost, and a pastor telling her to just begin to say Jesus, and then have her speed up until she was just saying jibberish. I also know that a well known Apostolic School Church in CA, has a pastor that gets up and tells everyone to start praying in their "prayer language". It is sad to see the Apostolic heritage that has been passed to us from such godly men slip further and further into worldliness and a form of godliness.

May God help us preserve a heritage for our children and grandchildren.

[drummerboy_dave]

It is sad to see the Apostolic heritage that has been passed to us from such godly men slip further and further into worldliness and a form of godliness. May God help us preserve a heritage for our children and grandchildren.

[servant]

Stmatt,
Amen and amen!

Serv :)

[BroRutledge]

I have made a few enemies by asking some people to back off when they were working in our alters. When they start that saying "say hallelujah real fast..." etc.. I call them down.

We cancelled a popular evangelist who kept telling the seekers to stop speaking in english and kept yelling in the ear of the seeker HALLELUHALLELUHALLELUHALLELU COME ON NOW HALLELUHALLELU THAT'S IT HALLELUHALLELU DON'T SAY ANOTHER WORD IN ENGLISH HALLELUHALLELUJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJE JJEYESYESYESYESJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJEJHALELUHALELU.. . If that doesn't work they try to beat it into them.

To me this is mockery. If they have the boldness to do that with these sincere seeker, I have the boldness to call them down and pull their coat tails.

It seems that these methods are being used in our Churches more and more, but I just cannot see it as being the right way to do things.

God bless
BroRutledge

[light]

AMEN

[bishop1]

Brother;
I just visited a XXX church that I have been preaching in for over 30 years.
After the altar service I overheard the asst.pastor telling a man that he had just received the Holy Ghost By Faith and that he would come to speak in tongues later.
H O G W A S H !
I Had To Correct That Mess Right Then And There.

Only God Can Fill You With The Holy Ghost !

And Every Body Receives the Holy Ghost The Same Way !

You Are FILLED To OVERFLOWING !

YOU Speak With Other Tongues As The Spirit Giveth Utterance !

Bye for now
Bro.Holland

[Sandy]

That is so very sad Matthew. Makes me cry to hear this is happening. For those that have had the truth are mans last hope for the salvation of other men. And when the devil destroys the foundation, then he has the whole house. Which is the reason he goes after it first to begin with.

Blessings,
Sandy

[BroDane]

If I want that hogwash stuff Ill watch Ole Benny Hinn re-runs...

:down: NOT!!! :down:

Col 3:23 Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from the soul), as [something done] for the Lord and not for men,

Matt 6:1 TAKE CARE not to do your good deeds publicly or before men, in order to be seen by them; otherwise you will have no reward [reserved for and awaiting you] with and from your Father Who is in heaven.

[survivor4christ]

Wow!

What an awesome topic!

Having been in XXX churches for many years before returning to One name Pentecostalism, I witnessed a lot of 'showboating.' Bobby Jones stuff. Made me very sad, and weary b/c all I was getting at the time was this fluff.

I have to admit that God has and is doing a purifying work in me b/c when I was in these churches and it was found out I was an anointed singer (for the glory of God) I was told to be proud of my gift. I never was really comfortable with this superstar status the carnal churches try to put on you when you are anointed; always rejected it..b/c I know from whence cometh my help and who gets all the glory and praise...his name is Jesus! I tried to learn their 'ways.' Offering up carnal praise instead of the real deal. Sing like they sing. It wasn't for me.... I thank God I am leaning more towards genuine praise...

And I know for a fact that if done out of a sincere heart (which was always the case for me) then God accepts it. He is pleased with it.

But I try to steer away from judging others' praise, too. In that it was done to me in a lot of these churches. When the Spirit of the Lord would move upon me and I danced like David danced, I was told I was out of order, in the flesh and needed to sit down.

Praise to me is a weapon. When I praise God, things happen. God moves. The devil's plans are thwarted, stopped. Answers to prayers are given flight. Why?

B/c it was offered up to God out of a sincere heart. When I was in the world, I was almost 100 lbs. lighter, and was an excellent dancer. I went to the nightclubs and danced all night long. Was in contests and won bar tabs and turned around and bought all the guys drinks. As the world says, "I had it going on.." I was bold for the devil. Did what I wanted when I wanted how I wanted. Rebellious.

But then God came into my life and filled me with the Holy Ghost; I was buried with Him in baptism in Jesus' Name. It seemed like I lost the ability to 'dance' as I had done in the world. When I was in church, at home wherever, and the Spirit of the Lord hit me, I just move. No rhythm, no order, just moved. Spoke in tongues. Screamed. Cried. Leaped. Ran. Many times I would praise God one place in church and when it was over I ended up somewhere and wondered "How I got here?" God gives the steps, the utterance. If I fall on the floor, I am on the floor. If I run down the aisle, off I go. Praised God through all three pregnancies, big as a house, feet swole like tree stumps...nothing happened. God just moved on me and off I go...

Got into the xxx churches and they would start enveloping me in this circle of ushers, trying to control the praise, to protect me and the unborn child. I saw them sit pregnant women down in fear that they would hurt their babies. I said, "Let her alone; God will take care of that baby!" But they did not listen.

Why?

B/c they do it out of their flesh. Flesh thinks like that something will happen to the baby so we gotta step in and monitor that it doesn't.

This whole showboating, showing off, is all a subtle way the enemy tries to control praise. And anyone who does praise out of a sincere heart-even if they start out Trini-sooner or later is led to the truth, and is anointed. It happened to me; I first "gave my heart to the Lord" in a COGIC. From there a Baptist church and applied to a charismatic Bible college. But you know what? On that application was a phrase that stuck with me for the longest, "Have you received the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues?" Didn't know what that was at the time, but that question stuck with me for over a year, as I kept searching for truth. God eventually answered that question one night as I read an Apostolic tract about the Holy Ghost and I prayed for understanding and revelation. The rest is history...

But back to the topic...

Heart felt praise and an open spirit to hear what the Spirit of God is saying....will lead to truth. And this terrifies our enemy. He knows our victory lies in the TRUE praise. So why not offer a counterfeit. Make the music just right, the singer hit the exact note, the praise leader says the right thing....then get the crowd hyped up and they think it is the anointing.

The anointing destroys the yoke! Everything else is hogwash. Phooey! A form of godliness but sadly denying the power thereof...

Wow, that was more than I wanted to share!

God Bless
Sis. Wenona

[Whosoever Will]

I've never heard of such, but if it's a performance, I bet I know some preachers that would want to cast the devil out of someone for doing such. I think that sounds ridiculous. I'm all for anything that's spontaneous and Holy Ghost annointed, but I'm not interested in giving audience to a dancing performance.

[dllong]

Amen RAZORBACK!

[Blest]

Oh, my.....these are some troubling posts about 'teaching people to speak in tongues'. I'm so glad not just anyone can read this, as I fear it would hinder them spiritually.

I remember a few years ago, at our camp meeting, a woman was 'dancing' during the preaching. Throughout her 'dance', her eyes were open and looking around facing out to the crowd of people. It was a slow moving dancing, and all the while, her eyes were looking out over the people. It seemed very unusual to me, and I wondered about it. Her dance may have been distracting to people who were trying to hear the preacher, but who am I to judge?

"Performance dancing" doesn't sound right at all, although, I still hesitate to be the one to judge that. I'd rather let God handle it and keep my nose out of it, just to be on the safe side.

Sis Wenona -

But I try to steer away from judging others' praise, too. In that it was done to me in a lot of these churches. When the Spirit of the Lord would move upon me and I danced like David danced, I was told I was out of order, in the flesh and needed to sit down.

Amen - Sounds like you've got the right spirit about it.

Blest

[Goodshepherd]

I don't know about praise dancers............ It is very troubling to me because before you know it there is going to be dedicated people like the baptist that speak in tongue. All saints are praise dancers because praising God is worship and God desires true worshippers not rehearsed worshippers!!

[ddc101]

Hi Sister Sandy,
Yes I was catholic charismatic then I branched out and was just plain charismatic.You would be surprised to know how many different groups practice many deceptive things.In fact I thought I had the Holy Ghost because I spoke in a tongues of a sort but when the real Holy Ghost stepped in it was entirely different.But even back then I used to listen to people speaking in tongue and realize that some of it was just man made chatter.People were desiring so badly to have the gift of God and operate in the gifts and callings of God that they were responding out of their human spirits.This is a very dangerous area and much demonic activity went on.I was labeled within the group I belonged to as over zealous and a person who prayed like the pentecostals.In fact the main TEACHER of the charismatic group I belonged to took me aside and told me not to pray with people and that He was the pastor.I replyed that I thought it was only a prayer group and that the priest at the church was our pastor.He did not like that at all.God delivered me out of the whole cigarette smoking,wine drinking bunch of them...AMEN!!!! They would teach and call themselves teachers and act like they were the elite and then as soon as prayer meeting was over all line up on the back stairs and take a smoke....Boy how deceived.But it was just this that caused me too be disallusioned with that group and seek Jesus for more.lv sis.c

[O2blikehim]

ddc writes;

"But even back then I used to listen to people speaking in tongue and realize that some of it was just man made chatter."

Stephen writes;
As much as I would like to think otherwise, I STILL think I am hearing alot of psycho babble, crowd posturing and manipulation with tongues, and obvious pseudo glossilania.

A longtime puzzled UPC member, Stephen

[tufluv]

All I can add to all this talk about speaking in tongues, that some churches abuse this by trying to either teach or force people into suddenly doing it is:

I'm SO GLAD I belong to an organization, AAFCJ, that does not even hear of this type stuff happening. I'd never even heard of such a thing, but through this forum, and coincidentally, on a radio program, so it all came to be known to me at about the same, sounds like such a sick, demon-inspired thing, maybe thats what people were talking about way back before when I was Baptist, this "fakey" man-made tongue speaking-that it was demonic, so I ran the opposite way, mistakenly.:eek:

Thats pretty BAD, when someone has to fake it, rather than be obedient to GOD, truly seek HIM with a repentant heart, and let GOD present to him that GIFT! Not a right. Not something to buy, as Simon the sorcerer tried to do.

I am grateful to my JESUS for giving me the gift of the HOLYGHOST, and all else that HE sees fit to give me out of his great love and mercy. LIBERTY is mine, more and more, as I'm being set free from so many binding things of the flesh. I can express that liberation now in ways I could not before, as I become more spiritually mature.
AND, because for some reason, I cannot get into the praises and testimonies room, I'LL DO IT HERE!! HALLELUYAH, my GOD is REAL; "My soul doth magnify the LORD, for HE IS WORTHY TO BE PRAISED"!!!:bow:

[ddc101]

While we are on this subject I want to share an incident.
A lady in the church shared something with me.Now this was somewhere between the north and south not at our assembly.
One evening she went into a revival service and there was prayer going on.Many people were praying in other tongues.Now this particular assembly rarely prays in english ever.Many I can understand pray all day and it is a powerful place of worship and presence of the Lord so I will not take away from that.
She stopped and could not believe her ears as one of the members was praying in a language she understood clearly...French...though it was a more parisian dialect.She clearly understood him to be praying the Catholic Rosary.This person was secretly backslid and had returned to their former lifestyle, in adultry and was pretending.The thing the person did not know was by backsliding the spirit over this area all ready had a hold on them.Deceived.We had better stay under the blood and let the Spirit give the utterance lest another spirit grip our souls.lv sis.c

[accurate]

Hello brothers and sisters,

I can understand where a job-type position of performance is not the definition of worship.

Worship is expressing love in form. My brother in the church, Christian Garrett, pastors now in New Mexico. They express love quiet diffrently from what I hear. They wave banners back and forth.

I wouldn't be so quick to say who performs to express love or out of a position in God's church.

Think of the thief on the cross who hear the words, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise". This brother on the cross may of not been able to express his love like we would have, but the love was there I am sure of it.

Don't put expectations on what worship is, a carnal man will walk out the doors on Sunday unhappy because people didn't meet his expectations. This is a DANGEROUS place to be.

I challenge everyone of you to express your love without the habit of clapping for just one week, perhaps even a month! Hopefully you can hear the words in the music played at your church, listen to the truth in the words. If your anything like the people I meet, you'll want to run those isles, do that jig, express your love! Spend the same ammont of time you did clapping your hands doing something else!

Your not beating that drum, ignore it! Your not that piano person, your not playing! The words in itself should lead you into expressing your love for the Lord Jesus Christ!

I hope this has been helpful advice,

[O2blikehim]

Good advice Jason.

Stephen

[Apostolic Kitty]

Originally posted by accurate
I challenge everyone of you to express your love without the habit of clapping for just one week, perhaps even a month!


Hehe....funny you'd say that. I've always wondered why people always clap so much considering there is only one scripture I have found that talks about clapping to the Lord.

Some of the other clapping verses also speak of hissing. Take it from the Kitty, hissing is a bad sign....;)

[Whosoever Will]

You said, "Charasmatic will fellowship with you as long as you let them feel that they are alright like they are."

AMEN to that brother. But they'll cut a back-flip if you start sharing Jesus name oneness truth with them. They'll stay if they can sing and testify all dolled up like Tammy Fay Baker, but if they can't participate and be accepted, they're 88 and out the gate.

(I'm not ultra-conservative, but even I can't watch TBN with a straight face.)

[ddc101]

Now where did I put my tutu.....

[ddc101]

Calling John Atkinson who cannot dance to this thread....lv sis.c

[Mike]

Hi Folks,

I do not believe in rehearsed dancing in the Church. Neither do I believe in Chuch Choirs. Talk about a man made tradition!

As far as lumping all Charismatics into the "fake" category this is absurd. There are Charismatic groups out there who are very serious with God. True they are lagging behind in Oneness truth but we should be about the business of bringing them into more truth.

When it comes to a worship service I enjoy the Charismatic praise and worship far more than any (excepting for Dave Hustons Church) Apostolic meeting I have been in.

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

WOW! Just now saw this thread, thanks to whoever revived it...

Praise Singers, YES!

Praise DANCERS, NO!

Praise should be something that comes from the heart, not rehearsed....
We have enough actors and actresses out there already....
Genuine praise brings the genuine spirit....
Rehearsed dancing is not from the heart.... and I don't see where it draws the same genuine spirit of God.... It is just an act if it's not from our heart....

Give me Grandma Jones dancing for the Lord, but not these new folks, especially those on TV who dress in black! ..... For those of you who know who I'm speaking of, they really drive me bananas! But then, maybe that's just my perception.... I don't know them.... BUT, in my opinion, rehearsed dancing is an act, not a genuine reaction to the move of the spirit....

[ufmek]

Me I'm either or. I don't care to do it but I do enjoy watching it. Just like you have the rehearsed stick ministries etc... to me this is no different. I don't knock it at all. Rather them use their gifts unto God then in the world. If you're blessed to have rythm and coordination then use it for the glory of God. I'm behind you.:banana:

[ddc101]

Brother are the big fat ones doing the jig the most entertaining.I am sorry but I am not trying to just post to laugh but it at my job they had the tv on some kind of religous channel.I think people do that because they know I am a christian so they do alot of stuff that they normally would not do in the presence of another...lol..but I noticed some very large and loosely built is the nicest term I can think of women dancing barefoot.lv sis.c

[ufmek]

Brother are the big fat ones doing the jig the most entertaining.I am sorry but I am not trying to just post to laugh but it at my job they had the tv on some kind of religous channel.I think people do that because they know I am a christian so they do alot of stuff that they normally would not do in the presence of another...lol..but I noticed some very large and loosely built is the nicest term I can think of women dancing barefoot.lv sis.c Sis I enjoy them all!! JMHO

[TodayAGiftFrGod]

Sis I enjoy them all!! JMHO
My question is this:

Is it praise and worship ..... or ..... just entertaining? :goof:

[ufmek]

My question is this:

Is it praise and worship ..... or ..... just entertaining? :goof: To be quite frank with you Sis... it's a little bit of both.....but more into the entertaining part.:spin:

[ddc101]

haha...Brother Mike at least you are honest.So go a little further.Do they put your mind on Jesus when you see them? lv sis.c

[KentuckyMommy]

WOW! Just now saw this thread, thanks to whoever revived it...

Praise Singers, YES!

Praise DANCERS, NO!

Praise should be something that comes from the heart, not rehearsed....
We have enough actors and actresses out there already....
Genuine praise brings the genuine spirit....
Rehearsed dancing is not from the heart.... and I don't see where it draws the same genuine spirit of God.... It is just an act if it's not from our heart....

Give me Grandma Jones dancing for the Lord, but not these new folks, especially those on TV who dress in black! ..... For those of you who know who I'm speaking of, they really drive me bananas! But then, maybe that's just my perception.... I don't know them.... BUT, in my opinion, rehearsed dancing is an act, not a genuine reaction to the move of the spirit....
Wow. I must be behind the times. This is the first I've heard of "Praise Dancers". We worship in our church, we have awesome services, but nothing that is rehearsed. We don't know from one service to the next what will take place. That stuff sure does sound a little off the wall to me.

[Truthseeker]

Hi Folks,

I do not believe in rehearsed dancing in the Church. Neither do I believe in Chuch Choirs. Talk about a man made tradition!

As far as lumping all Charismatics into the "fake" category this is absurd. There are Charismatic groups out there who are very serious with God. True they are lagging behind in Oneness truth but we should be about the business of bringing them into more truth.

When it comes to a worship service I enjoy the Charismatic praise and worship far more than any (excepting for Dave Hustons Church) Apostolic meeting I have been in.


Why no choir?

[Anvilfire]

I've seen choirs explode into worship and the glory of God come down and sinners filled with the Holyghost and the preacher didn't preach.And you say no choir:huh:

[tufluv]

:banana:
The LORD inhabits, draws near, to the praises of HIS people.

Sure maybe some visitors or unsaved folks may come in and even 'get into' the spirit of what everyone else is doing, just on their own, without the HG..

BUT..
Rehearsed stuff is definitely out where I'm concerned-that I've seen on TBN long ago, (thank GOD I completely stopped even peeking in on it)..
I found it dumb., youth all dressed in black body suits dancing! :grumble: And to the style of the world, like found in maybe clubs or hip-hop style.

Most of that I thought was restricted to trini churches only. :shrug:

Large choirs I used to NOT like so much, I like them okay now...but kinda have some concerns of how they get into dancing (like the world it seems) after a while, on some songs.

[NanaRenan]

Thanks for reviving this thread -- I hadn't seen it before.

This is the sort of stuff I thought of when the thread was started the other day making some generalized comparisons to Krishna followers.

I didn't speak up then, but I have heard others make that remark before about people jumping up and down in one place. (But sometimes, that's all there's room to do, in some venues.)

Personally, I think this is one of those areas that is too complex to try and sort out. I think contrived, forced, faked dance is wrong.

BUT -- I remember as a young person believing if the Spirit didn't take hold of me and make me shout it was faking. Then I remember the very night -- in my later 20s when I first danced in the Spirit....I hesitated at first, because the Spirit wasn't picking my feet up and moving them, "I" WAS. Yet, I could feel the Spirit all over me and welling up with joy in my soul.

That's when I understood that dance can be a form of worship every bit as much as waving my hands in the air or clapping with joy. That was very freeing -- I've been blessed by dancing in the Spirit many, many times since.

As to choirs (my favorite type of music, btw) -- I've seen choirs sing where they are instructed to not do any synchronized movement (which, can occur naturally, without intentions) and sometimes the Spirit falls and things break loose -- but I've also seen choirs that aren't so rigid get blessed more often.
So, I'm not opposed to a choir leader who encourages the members to really pour themselves into their praise and worship -- which is what it's all about anyhow.

Most importantly -- I try to shame myself if I catch myself looking at someone's "style" and wondering if its genuine or not. If I'm doing that, then "I" am not focused on MY praise and worship.

[4everwithJesus]

I didn't speak up then, but I have heard others make that remark before about people jumping up and down in one place. (But sometimes, that's all there's room to do, in some venues.)

JUMP *FOR* JOY!! :tup:

[ufmek]

haha...Brother Mike at least you are honest.So go a little further.Do they put your mind on Jesus when you see them? lv sis.c To be honest not really Sis. Just like the stick ministry never did anything for me spiritually including many choirs. Yet I still love them.



P.S.- PLEASE READ CAREFULLY I SAID MANY CHOIRS..... not ALL!!!! Don't want to cause any problems.:p

[ddc101]

Brother whats the stick ministry? lv sis.c

[Truthseeker]

Brother whats the stick ministry? lv sis.c

You know, if they don't say amen or agree, you hit them over the head with sticks. especially during offering time. :tup:

[ufmek]

Brother whats the stick ministry? lv sis.c Where people dress in black and use white gloves that sometimes glow in the dark and they sign songs either with sticks or their hands. In which they are not actually doing sign language... instead they are merely expressing themselves to whatever song is being played. Down here in Florida it is very popular. Including youth camps,singles, and so forth.

[ddc101]

Brother Mike,
I have seen that.And just now I am recognizing that you are from Tampa.Well Brother my husband grew up in D.L.Welchs church.In fact much of our family still attends.Brother Hal Kennedy and my mom in law were raised together.
They are first cousins but Hals mom raised my mom in law after her mom died young.Anyway small world.I suppose you survived the storm.BTW I have relatives in Tampa.My nephew/wife and my sister all live in Tampa.God bless you.lv sis.c

[milady]

I guess it would depend on what you mean by "praise dancers"
If you are talking about people who dance in the holyghost or dance as a form of worship to God like clapping their hands,that is great.
But if you are talking about a group of specially picked people who dance on stage and put on a show for the congregation,like they do in some charesmatic church then I say no

[Melody]

Where people dress in black and use white gloves that sometimes glow in the dark and they sign songs either with sticks or their hands. In which they are not actually doing sign language... instead they are merely expressing themselves to whatever song is being played. Down here in Florida it is very popular. Including youth camps,singles, and so forth.

And if there are no deaf in the congegration then even using proper sign language in this setting would be "for show" in my opinion.

[Eleanor]

I visited a church where they had praise dancers.They actually have classes to teach people the dances,and they use flags in their dances and wear costume dresses.As for me I know that it is not what God would have in the church.In church services when the Spirit is moving and the Holy Ghost moves and someone gets touched and starts dancing in the Spirit that is what pleases God.If my church ever started to hold these praise dances I would find another church

[ufmek]

And if there are no deaf in the congegration then even using proper sign language in this setting would be "for show" in my opinion.Melody even if deaf people were in the audience they would not understand this group because they are not even truly signing. I asked my girlfriend who is an interpreter about their signs and she responded that the deaf doesn't even know what is going on because they aren't even signing... period.:yeah:

[ufmek]

Brother Mike,
I have seen that.And just now I am recognizing that you are from Tampa.Well Brother my husband grew up in D.L.Welchs church.In fact much of our family still attends.Brother Hal Kennedy and my mom in law were raised together.
They are first cousins but Hals mom raised my mom in law after her mom died young.Anyway small world.I suppose you survived the storm.BTW I have relatives in Tampa.My nephew/wife and my sister all live in Tampa.God bless you.lv sis.c Look a there what gives. It is truly a small world. All I can say Sis. is that God is truly gracious even through the storms. Blessings!!

[Melody]

Melody even if deaf people were in the audience they would not understand this group because they are not even truly signing. I asked my girlfriend who is an interpreter about their signs and she responded that the deaf doesn't even know what is going on because they aren't even signing... period.:yeah:

It seems like "signing" choirs are becoming popular in my area, yet there is no true outreach to the deaf. And if the choice in a sign used by the choir is between what is a "real" interpretation of the meaning of the song or what "looks" prettier, the choice is always what "looks" prettier. In my mind, this is purely vanity.

[ddc101]

Melody I agree there is alot of flesh involved.I wonder how we could market our apostolic young people who are doing this to the deaf community and use it to relay the gospel.lv sis.c

[NanaRenan]

Melody I agree there is alot of flesh involved.I wonder how we could market our apostolic young people who are doing this to the deaf community and use it to relay the gospel.lv sis.c
I have a friend who is very involved in sign language -- has been since early childhood. She's currently in Bible College, but intends to go on to University and hopes to be employed in the Court system as a professional interpreter some day.

She's had several amazing encounters with "running into" deaf people -- at the gas station, the store, etc. (I believe they're God-arranged meetings!) Even getting an opportunity to visit some of their homes and maybe even give a Bible Study.

She's told me that the deaf community is very insular and there is something akin to distrust of hearing peoples. We need to all pray for those doing this work, that God will open doors to enable them to reach the deaf to get them to come to church!

Her church has a couple of deaf people and occasional visitor -- they carry on signing even if none of them are present because it gives those still learning to interpret an opportunity to practice signing or reading.

Where's SOP ?? We could use his input on this, I think.

[Deonna]

I've seen choirs explode into worship and the glory of God come down and sinners filled with the Holyghost and the preacher didn't preach.And you say no choir:huh:

AMEN!!!! You shoulda seen several of us taking off dancing as we were singing Wed night at General Conference. The camera men didn't get our choirs total worship on video. But that's ok, it was for God alone. :icon_danc

And the Sunday night before we left, the Holy Ghost fell and we were dancing and worshipping around the altar. It was AWESOME!!!!!!!!

[ufmek]

It seems like "signing" choirs are becoming popular in my area, yet there is no true outreach to the deaf. And if the choice in a sign used by the choir is between what is a "real" interpretation of the meaning of the song or what "looks" prettier, the choice is always what "looks" prettier. In my mind, this is purely vanity. I agree 100% there with you Sis.:tup:

[ufmek]

Where's SOP ?? We could use his input on this, I think. I'm wondering the same thing Sis.

S.O.P. WHERE ARE YOU AT BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mike]

Bro Rob,

Where do we find choirs in the New Testament Apostolic Church in scripture? It is another form of clergy/laity. A select few will sing for us. Not quite.

[NanaRenan]

Bro Rob,

Where do we find choirs in the New Testament Apostolic Church in scripture? It is another form of clergy/laity. A select few will sing for us. Not quite.
But that's where the whole thing gets off track -- if the choir or anybody else thinks they're singing for US. The singing has to be unto HIM or it IS all vanity!

And we're not supposed to be being entertained in the flesh by their singing -- but we're supposed to be worshipping along with them.

If you want to be entertained, buy a CD or wait for a concert.

[Mike]

Nana,

You said:

And we're not supposed to be being entertained in the flesh by their singing -- but we're supposed to be worshipping along with them.

Me:

You missed my point. Why should WE be worshipping along with THEM? All the members of the body should be worshipping together.

[Niki]

Singing is a form of worship. So is playing instruments. Clapping. Dancing. Leaping. Shouting. Etc.

Those who want to be in the choir, join and sing praises. Others have the God-given talent of playing instruments and praise God with them. Some maybe can't sing or play an instrument, but they can shout, clap, dance, leap, lift up their hands, etc. We all worship together any way we can.

That's how it is in my church anyway. It's not the choir singing and everyone else sitting their "being entertained". Those who aren't on the platform singing or playing an instrument (to worship God and to usher in His presence), are (or should be) worshipping together with us by singing along, clapping, dancing, shouting, lifting up their hands, etc.

Aren't one of the Psalms (or part of it) addressed to the female singers? (I forget what they're called. I'd have to look it up.) Sounds like a group to me. Or part of the choir. ;)

And, of course, the choir went before the army of the Lord and brought the victory. You won't convince me that choirs can't be anointed or used of God. No way, no how. :)

[Melody]

Her church has a couple of deaf people and occasional visitor -- they carry on signing even if none of them are present because it gives those still learning to interpret an opportunity to practice signing or reading.




I really don't have a problem with this, even preachers have to practice preaching. But when the attitude is "I really don't care what the sign is supposed to mean". And there is NO outreach and there appears to be no burden to reach out to the deaf in the area, but there are 10 to 15 members of a signing choir, there is something wrong.

BTW, my background include seven years employment at a school for the deaf and attendence at Gualedet University and Indiana University to learn interpreting for the deaf, and 30 years plus interpreting for the deaf.

[SignsofPraise]

I'm wondering the same thing Sis.

S.O.P. WHERE ARE YOU AT BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL... I went AWOL for a couple of days but I'm back...

Now I have been reading over some of the Posts. Those who claim to be a sign group and actually are more of a drama team because 99% of it arent signs. Our Church has one of those. If you want to be a drama team then fine, just dont call yourself a sign team seeing that the deaf have absolutely no idea what is going on. I get frustrated when a "sign team" gets up and doesnt sign... sorry that should go in the pet peeve thread...LOL. Now As for a group getting up and signing a song even without deaf I see as beneficial because you will never know when that will reach someone. I've heard of those who are interpetors for the deaf as a profession being touched by seeing that. If the Sign Group is annointed then God can use them for his glory. One time the Pastor of the church I grew up in came to us and asked us to sign a song because God laid it on his heart for us to sign. We signed it and God just poured out a blessing on the church. I mean almost the Whole Church got a blessing. It was a good size church with alot of sitters but when God moved that day almost all were up praising his name. IMO I dont see a point in the stick ministry but who am I to judge. If God can make rocks cry out then can use anything even sticks.

this was JHMO

[SignsofPraise]

To continue my ramblings...LOL.

I've heard and seen Alot of Praise Dancing going on... Not To Praise the lord but to actually start dancing, I seen a group of girls at a HUGE Youth Rally start dancing in a circle and actually started doing some swing dancing, ON THE PLATFORM. The Bishop of the church kicked them off the platform Personally. He pulled them off to the side and talked to them but I dont think it did any good because I know a couple of them and one of them just a week later one was going around asking a bunch of guys if they thought she was sexy. Made me Sick to my stomach to see it. I know the church and I know how the Bishop, the Pastor, the Youth Pastor Preach and I cant understand for the life of me how the Youth of the church would do something like that. I cant understand why Anyone who claims to be chosen children of God would do that. Youth or not. Sorry... maybe this should go in the Pet Peeve thread also...LOL


By the way I'm happy I was Missed...LOL

[NanaRenan]

Nana,

You said:

And we're not supposed to be being entertained in the flesh by their singing -- but we're supposed to be worshipping along with them.

Me:

You missed my point. Why should WE be worshipping along with THEM? All the members of the body should be worshipping together.
I didn't miss the point -- I was agreeing implicitly -- we're ALL supposed to be worshipping TOGETHER...but instead of one person, (a song leader or praise leader) picking the song and leading, a group who practiced the songs are leading the way.

Have you ever noticed that a lot of choir songs end up as praise and worship songs the whole church knows. That's what I see the choir as -- a conduit for introducing new songs of praise and leading sincere worship.

[sign542]

Some say it is sin and abomination and others feel the opposite.
Grace.
God bless all!! I'm a "newby" here. <smile>

Now, to the issue...I would be exceedingly hesitant to render a judgement of "abomination" upon anything the scripture doesn't specifically assign the word to. It's a very strong word and is applied to specific things that God detests. And we certainly do not want to be guilty of falsely judging another. Remember, we are talking about God's very children. Don't get caught slandering them when the Lord knows the truth.

Truth be known, there is no clear-cut scriptural doctrine about how one is expected to "dance" before the Lord. There are scriptures in the Old Testament, demonstrating some (David) who partook of this activity, but few references in the New Testament will explain how, precisely, one should or should not dance when the urge and the Spirit descends.

I wold venture to say that discretion lies solely with the Lord...and if Sister CrazyLegs has it in her heart to dance before the Lord...who am I to stop her or pass judgement simply because she bumps into me (referencing another's comment that to hit another while dancing proves "in the flesh". Absurd) or because I personally don't think she is "Right" with God. God did not leave me behind as his personal "Dancing In The Spirit Police".

Certainly Pastors are charged with the authority in their own respective congregations...and God instills within them a measure of judgement and discretion to discern things the layman might not. But...let's not be took quick to usurp our own position and start acting as the "hall monitor" for God, quickly squashing people who do not behave and act like we think they should.

Rather, we should all endeavor to simply let our own lights shine, worry about the dirt on our own doorstep, and leave the work and judgements of God...to God.

Thomas

[Single4ASeason]

God bless all!! I'm a "newby" here. <smile>

Now, to the issue...I would be exceedingly hesitant to render a judgement of "abomination" upon anything the scripture doesn't specifically assign the word to. It's a very strong word and is applied to specific things that God detests. And we certainly do not want to be guilty of falsely judging another. Remember, we are talking about God's very children. Don't get caught slandering them when the Lord knows the truth.

Truth be known, there is no clear-cut scriptural doctrine about how one is expected to "dance" before the Lord. There are scriptures in the Old Testament, demonstrating some (David) who partook of this activity, but few references in the New Testament will explain how, precisely, one should or should not dance when the urge and the Spirit descends.

I wold venture to say that discretion lies solely with the Lord...and if Sister CrazyLegs has it in her heart to dance before the Lord...who am I to stop her or pass judgement simply because she bumps into me (referencing another's comment that to hit another while dancing proves "in the flesh". Absurd) or because I personally don't think she is "Right" with God. God did not leave me behind as his personal "Dancing In The Spirit Police".

Certainly Pastors are charged with the authority in their own respective congregations...and God instills within them a measure of judgement and discretion to discern things the layman might not. But...let's not be took quick to usurp our own position and start acting as the "hall monitor" for God, quickly squashing people who do not behave and act like we think they should.

Rather, we should all endeavor to simply let our own lights shine, worry about the dirt on our own doorstep, and leave the work and judgements of God...to God.

Thomas
You are very wise, Thomas.

[Janice Alvear]

In Exodus 32:19, the record states that the children of Israel danced around and worshipped the golden calf they asked Aaron to make while Moses was on Mount Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments and God’s covenant. That, of course, was not approved.
Judges 11:34 presents an example of the daughter of one of the Israelite judges (Jephthah) dancing alone.
Exodus 15:20-21 gives an account of women dancing to celebrate God’s deliverance of Israel from Egypt after the Red Sea crossing. There is no mention of men dancing with them.
Again, in Judges 21:19 we have an example of women dancing.
In 1 Samuel 18:6, women danced to celebrate one of King David’s victories.
In 2 Samuel 6:14-16, in what was apparently an act of worship to God, David himself danced before the ark of the covenant.
And Psalms 149:3 and 150:4 speak of praising God through dance.
Turning to 1 Samuel 30:16, we read of soldiers dancing.
In Ecclesiastes 3:4, Solomon wrote that there is a time for almost everything. He includes a “time for dancing,” in contrast to a “time for mourning.”
And the prophet Jeremiah (31:13) foretold a time when dancing would be the joyous result of God’s work.

[Janice Alvear]

Hebrew Word Dance Forms Scriptures Reference
Gul:Gil
"Gool: Gheel" To spin round:(under the influence of any violent emotion), joy or fear (as cringing): be glad be joyful. Psalm 2:11, 9:14,13: 4,5
Psalm 12:4-5, 16:9 51:8
Isaiah 65:18-19 29:19,
Hosea 10:5
Chyl: Chil
"Chool: Cheel:" To twist or whirl: (in a circular or spiral manner), i.e. specifically to dance, to turn round, to dance in a circle: also to writhe in pain, especially to travail in childbirththis type of dancing would indicate tremendous expression. Deuteronomy 2:25, Job 15:20, Psalm 29:9, 55:4,
Isaiah 13:8, 23:4, 26:17,18 Isaiah 54:1: 66:7-9,
Jeremiah 4:19, Ezekiel 30:16, Joel 2:6, Micah 4:10
Judges 21:21,23
Machol
Macholah
(feminine of Machol) A round dance: dancing: chorus (from Chul, above): to twist or whirl in a circle. A round dance: this is the noun form of Chul to twist or whirl in a circle. A dance company or chorus: dances

Psalm 30:11: 149:3 150:4 Jeremiah 31:4,13
Lamentations 5:15.
Exodus 15:20: 32:19
Judges 11:34: 21:21
! Samuel 18:6; 21:11: 29:5: I Kings 19:16: Song of Solomon 6:13
Karar To dance: whirl: to go or move in a circle: to exult: leap: to run. Note Dromedaries or camels is derived from this root due to their bounding up and down motion. 2 Samuel 6:14; 6:16

Raqak To stamp: to spring about (wildly or for joy); dance: jump: leap: skip. to skip for fear figuratively). The primary idea seems to be that of stamping the ground with one's feet. Psalm 29:6: 114:4,6, (skipped)
! Chronicles 15:29: Job 21:11: Ecclesiastes 3:4: Isaiah 13:21: Joel 2:5: Nahum 3:2
Dalag To spring or leap. 2 Samuel 22:30; Psalm 18:29; Isaiah 35:6: Zephaniah 1:9
Song of Solomon 2:8
Pazaz To leap: to bound: to be light; agile; associated with good "to separate and purity metals from dross by means of fire: to solidify as if by refining, by made strong"; to spring; numbly leaping and dancing.To refine with fire (as Gold): to solidify: to spring as if sparating the limbs leap: be made strong; to bound; to be light; agile: nimbly leaping and dancing. Genesis 49:24; 2
Samuel 6:16
Chagag To move in a circle:; specifically to march in a procession; to observe a festival: celebrate (from the ides of leaping and dancing in sacred dances): by implication to be giddy or drunken; reel to and fro..A derivative of this word is the Hebrew word for "feast" ! Samuel 30:16; Exodus 5:1; Leviticus 23:14: Psalm 42:4; Exodus 12:14, 17; 23:14; Deuteronomy 16;15
Exodus 5:1 Exodus 23:14
Leviticus 23:41
(in a public assembly): Deuteronomy 16:16
Haliykah Walking: by implication, a procession or march; a caravan (company); going; walk

[Janice Alvear]

One of the more expressive forms of worship is the dance. As with other expressions of man's being, dancing may be associated with good or evil. That is why we as leaders must instill in our people the need to walk in the spirit, live in the spirit, dance in the spirit, sing in the spirit...
I have seen so many carnal christians out handing out tracts doing this or that on the streets....(it is ok to do these things) but the real tract the world is reading is our everyday life....Our real praise is not just dancing down the aisles but being a REAL 24 hour christian....

[Janice Alvear]

I know the subject is about "praise dancers" but just thought it good to add a few things about dancing. May God bless each one.

[NanaRenan]

God bless all!! I'm a "newby" here. <smile>
And what an amazing DEBUT post, Brother Thomas! WELCOME to GNC. I agree with everything you said...and I think the devil would like to have us "hall monitoring" the choir, every second spend doing that is one less spent worshipping Christ. Let God and the pastor tend to those matters.

I thought of another point that I omitted as to why we should worship "with" a choir. I can't speak for any but the handful of churches I know personally, but they devote a little time to practice and learning songs, but are usually in the prayer rooms before service. I've seen the Spirit fall and there be a break out in the prayer room that spilled into the auditorium when they entered.

Personally, I'm often rushing to church too late to visit the prayer room and sometimes have to concentrate to shrug off concerns the flesh in order to reach the point I need to be in to praise and worship my Lord. To have the dedicated men, women and youth of the choir up there already primed and ready to go -- really helps!

[xsimmsx]

Praise Dancers. Yes! Yes! Yes! Organized or spontaneous as long as it is True worship.

[survivor4christ]

I admit I used to have a problem with rehearsed praise. I felt that all true praise and worship should be spontaneous, unplanned.

But I have seen some praise dances that has brought me to tears. Shucks, in the privacy of my living room, I have danced b4 the Lord as a holy sacrifice unto Him. The whole atmosphere of my home changed; the kids were hollering and bickering and I put on Donnie McClurkin and started my liturgical dance b4 Him.

Now for a 200 + pound woman to do liturgical dance can be a funny sight to see, if you aren't in the Spirit.

But I wasn't 'performing.' I was worshipping!

It was then I realized that whatever we do, if we do it as unto the Lord, and not as unto man, He gets all the glory and it is acceptable to HIM.

A little off topic....

I just came from an 'event' at a very popular church here in N.O. Bishop Paul Morton and Pastor Daryl Coley held a concert tonite with the proceeds going to benefit a local family center. The event was titled, 'A Singing Match: Morton vs. Coley.'

These two men are haled as very talented singers, and sing under the anointing often. They are also ministers.

I went to the event b/c I liked the idea of helping out the community, and it was free and I absolutely love to hear Daryl Coley minister.

As I listened, I did realize that many people were so fascinated with the names that were there that they forgot the name that is above all other names, the name of Jesus!

I prayed in my spirit silently, 'Lord, please remind us all who deserves the glory. You have blessed with talent and gifts and have even poured out your anointing. But let us remember it is YOU we praise and adore...'

It seemed like this event was just going to be another one of those events where we end up glorifying and magnifying the creature instead of the Creator. Who is blessed forever! It grieved my spirit so...I just prayed in my spirit that the people will turn that worship to God.

At the end of the event, you could feel the tangible presence of God in that place and He was being exalted.

Why did I share that?

Well, this was one of those things where this event could have been written off as just another promotional kick for two very popular ministries, if it was looked at upon the surface. But looking beneath the obvious, looking at the heart of the matter...it was found that it was acceptable unto God.

Man looks at the outer appearance, but God looks at the heart.

In the end, God gets all the glory!

If it is done from a pure heart as unto the Lord!

Love,
Sis. Wenona

[Janice Alvear]

I admit I used to have a problem with rehearsed praise. I felt that all true praise and worship should be spontaneous, unplanned.

But I have seen some praise dances that has brought me to tears. Shucks, in the privacy of my living room, I have danced b4 the Lord as a holy sacrifice unto Him. The whole atmosphere of my home changed; the kids were hollering and bickering and I put on Donnie McClurkin and started my liturgical dance b4 Him.

Now for a 200 + pound woman to do liturgical dance can be a funny sight to see, if you aren't in the Spirit.

But I wasn't 'performing.' I was worshipping!

It was then I realized that whatever we do, if we do it as unto the Lord, and not as unto man, He gets all the glory and it is acceptable to HIM.

A little off topic....

I just came from an 'event' at a very popular church here in N.O. Bishop Paul Morton and Pastor Daryl Coley held a concert tonite with the proceeds going to benefit a local family center. The event was titled, 'A Singing Match: Morton vs. Coley.'

These two men are haled as very talented singers, and sing under the anointing often. They are also ministers.

I went to the event b/c I liked the idea of helping out the community, and it was free and I absolutely love to hear Daryl Coley minister.

As I listened, I did realize that many people were so fascinated with the names that were there that they forgot the name that is above all other names, the name of Jesus!

I prayed in my spirit silently, 'Lord, please remind us all who deserves the glory. You have blessed with talent and gifts and have even poured out your anointing. But let us remember it is YOU we praise and adore...'

It seemed like this event was just going to be another one of those events where we end up glorifying and magnifying the creature instead of the Creator. Who is blessed forever! It grieved my spirit so...I just prayed in my spirit that the people will turn that worship to God.

At the end of the event, you could feel the tangible presence of God in that place and He was being exalted.

Why did I share that?

Well, this was one of those things where this event could have been written off as just another promotional kick for two very popular ministries, if it was looked at upon the surface. But looking beneath the obvious, looking at the heart of the matter...it was found that it was acceptable unto God.

Man looks at the outer appearance, but God looks at the heart.

In the end, God gets all the glory!

If it is done from a pure heart as unto the Lord!

Love,
Sis. Wenona


Beautiful, Sister Wenona...We worship not unto man but unto God...

[Truthseeker]

Bro Rob,

Where do we find choirs in the New Testament Apostolic Church in scripture? It is another form of clergy/laity. A select few will sing for us. Not quite.


There's alot of stuff not found in the new testament.

[Goodshepherd]

IIt was then I realized that whatever we do, if we do it as unto the Lord, and not as unto man, He gets all the glory and it is acceptable to HIM......

Well, this was one of those things where this event could have been written off as just another promotional kick for two very popular ministries, if it was looked at upon the surface. But looking beneath the obvious, looking at the heart of the matter...it was found that it was acceptable unto God.

Man looks at the outer appearance, but God looks at the heart.

In the end, God gets all the glory!

If it is done from a pure heart as unto the Lord!


Beautiful Sis. Wenona... your a very wise woman of God and I always enjoy your thoughts. God bless you richly

[apostolicshine]

I was raised in the apostolic truth. I received the Holyghost when I was eight years old, baptized in Jesus name when I was nine. Now I'm only sixteen but I've seen a lot of really fake stuff. I believe that dancing, running, rolling on the floor, speaking in tounges should only be done while in the movement of the spirit of God. I've danced, ran, spoke in tounges, there's even been times when I found myself face flat on the floor, all while in the movement of God. I think it's beautiful when someone is dancing in the spirit before God. But I do find it to be wrong when people are practicing to dance. If it's practiced, obviously it's not spontaneous. If you are just dancing or singing without the Holyghost upon you, then how are you glorifing God? Your not!
I apologize if I offend !

[SignsofPraise]

Welcome to the GNC, Hope you enjoy your time here.
I was raised in the apostolic truth. I received the Holyghost when I was eight years old, baptized in Jesus name when I was nine. Now I'm only sixteen but I've seen a lot of really fake stuff. I believe that dancing, running, rolling on the floor, speaking in tounges should only be done while in the movement of the spirit of God. I've danced, ran, spoke in tounges, there's even been times when I found myself face flat on the floor, all while in the movement of God. I think it's beautiful when someone is dancing in the spirit before God. But I do find it to be wrong when people are practicing to dance. If it's practiced, obviously it's not spontaneous. If you are just dancing or singing without the Holyghost upon you, then how are you glorifing God? Your not!
I apologize if I offend !

[angelindesguise]

If we are talking about spontanious praise that results in dancing I am all for it. If we are talking about a group of people who are practicing dance steps and learning to dance in church count me out.
I refuse to be part of that.
God bless
BroRutledge


I agree with Bro. Rutledge.

[light]

I agree with Bro. Rutledge.
Me to.

[tealbee99]

I was listening to a message recently (Jeff Arnold, I think) who made the statement about people who think their praise is "Pentecostal" and his comment was, no, it's Jewish. Nearly everything we find out methods of praise is based from the Old Testament. Exodus talks about Miriam going out with the women with their timbrels and "dances". It doesn't say they "danced", it says they had "dances" (more than one and distinguishable from one another). I'm not convinced that this wasn't similar to the traditional Jewish dances that are done today. While not rehearsed per se, they are certainly coordinated and not just spontaneous movement. We have a family in our church from Ghana and in their Apostolic church services (they brought back some video footage) the men dance in a circle together and the women in their own circle. I sort of like this idea even better than how we do it...no chance of "Sister Sally" getting up to prove how "spiritual she is" and get the glory from God!

There is a huge difference between performance and praise, not only in dance, but in singing, playing of music, etc. (There is also a huge difference between praise and worship, but that's likely another topic.) There's a comedian that grew up in church and said that "you can always tell what decade people got saved in by the way that they danced". In our current UPC culture, I don't think that "praise dancers" would go over well in most circles, but I don't think it's anything evil either. We kind of treat dancing as being more sacred and intimate worship, as a "deeper step" in our praise. (There's really nothing Biblical that I can find that supports that, it's just what our culture has developed.) I suspect the thought of "dancing before the Lord" being something that is planned and rehearsed may make it seem like it is "cheap" and insincere to some. I spend a lot of time practicing my music and singing so that I can offer Him the very best that I am able, maybe these dancers feel the same way.

[Manila1485]

I agree with Bro. Rutledge.

Me to.

Same here.

[Hope Preacher]

We prepare ourselves to minister the word... usually many hours before we stand in the pulpit.

We prepare ourselves to play instrument... sometimes for years

We practice the music, the song, and message, which are all vital parts of worship.

I cannot think of any logical, or Scriptural, reason why a choreographed dance before the Lord would be out of order.

Just an old man's opinion...

[angelindesguise]

2 Samuel 5 14:

And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

Wondered if David had prepared hours beforehand for the dance he Performed?

[angelindesguise]

Or Was it Spontaneous? :icon_danc:icon_danc

Just an old ladies opinion.

[Manila1485]

2 Samuel 5 14:

And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

Wondered if David had prepared hours beforehand for the dance he Performed?

Or Was it Spontaneous? :icon_danc:icon_danc

Just an old ladies opinion.

Didn't you know that he announced a practice 1 1/2 before church and instructed them wear all black as well as require the use of black lights, stage props, etc? :)

If I wanted to be entertained I would just go home (and on the way, buy a tv.)

[angelindesguise]

Didn't you know that he announced a practice 1 1/2 before church and instructed them wear all black as well as require the use of black lights, stage props, etc? :)

If I wanted to be entertained I would just go home (and on the way, buy a tv.)

LOL....too funny
Bro. Kenny, don't you know that church is all about " The Program " now,
if the program doesn't say it's time and we feel God, we gotta wait until the time is right?

[tealbee99]

Didn't you know that he announced a practice 1 1/2 before church and instructed them wear all black as well as require the use of black lights, stage props, etc? :)

If I wanted to be entertained I would just go home (and on the way, buy a tv.)


:icon_laug:icon_laug:icon_laug:icon_laug:icon_laug

[tealbee99]

Or Was it Spontaneous? :icon_danc:icon_danc

Just an old ladies opinion.


For starters, dear Angel, you are not an old lady!

I absolutely believe it was spontaneous - just as you might spontaneously break into song. The Bible doesn't say if he did some traditional dance or if it was something completely free form. My thought was only that I don't have a problem with a more organized form of dancing as long as the motive is for the glory of God. We've all seen singers, musicians, and even some preachers, that seemed to be doing their thing just to impress the people and it was devoid any inspiration from God or glory to God. I think most of us have enough discernment to pick up on that sort of thing.

On a related note, we had a guest preacher last Sunday, who brought up the question of why people who are sitting in the back of the church have to come up to the front of the church to praise and dance (in front of everyone) and why can't they do it wherever they were sitting? As a musician I've always wondered why we seem to need music (the faster the better usually) to "worship" God. Seems to me that if it's worship, you can do it with or without music (and anytime I wanted to dance before the Lord, I needed to do it on my "own time" without music"). Similarly, I heard another teacher ask why people make a big deal out of raising their hands in church when they don't lift their hands in private worship. It kind of begs the question for motivation I suppose if someone praises one way in church and another way (or not at all) at home. I'm not trying to make any direct accusations or anything like that, but just to express a general thought that maybe we have ways of thinking about what are the right and wrong ways to praise God that are more based on our culture and traditions than the actual Biblical experience.

[Manila1485]

LOL....too funny
Bro. Kenny, don't you know that church is all about " The Program " now,
if the program doesn't say it's time and we feel God, we gotta wait until the time is right?

This is something that recently occurred to me and now it seems to really get on my nerves. I've always been one that enjoyed music and was a big advocate of choir practice. Recently we had a young lady join the choir. She is from another Apostolic church and she goes to school at UGA. One morning during choir practice I was looking around while I was playing the organ and noticed that she was in tears. I could see that she was really worshiping God. Everybody else was just standing there and singing. Some of them were cutting up with one another. Then when church started, everybody in the choir was spiritual all of a sudden. Were we not singing the same songs just a few minutes before in choir practice?????? Ooooh, was I ever convicted. Shame on us when worship service becomes a venue in which to perform.

This is a classic example of The Crucible mentality. Has anybody else here read that play? It's a true story. It's about real people who lived in Massachusetts in the late 1600s. More specifically, it's about the Salem witch trials. There are many details which lead up to the chaos surrounding this little town. I don't have time to go into it, but I do think that one of the court room scenes is worth mentioning. One of the girls, Mary Warren, decides that she is going to confess that they were all just pretending to be bewitched. By this time people have already been executed because of these girls' foolishness and the main conspirator, Abigail Williams, knows that she would be in big trouble if they don't keep up the charade. After all, a very important minister was already in Salem, having made the journey from Beverly, MA in order to rid the town of the devil. Also, three very powerful judges had arrived in order to try the cases of those accused of witchcraft. I suspect that all of the girls knew that their necks were on the line if they didn't keep pretending. Anyway, Mary Warren starts her confession and suddenly Abigail Williams starts to scream as she looks toward the ceiling. She claims that Mary Warren is sending her spirit out in the form of a bird in order to silence them. The rest of the girls follow Abigail in suit. They too scream and appear afraid. Then Abigail starts to shiver and says she feels a cold wind. The rest of the girls do likewise. Then they faint. Mary Warren pleads with the judges (who do not believe that they were just pretending) and tries to persuade them that when she fainted earlier, that she was just pretending. The judges say to her "Then pretend to faint now". She cannot because she is not "caught up in the moment" like the rest of the girls. In fact, one of the judges feels the skin of one of the girls that had pretended to faint and makes the comment that her skin is ice cold. How can this be? Was Mary Warren a witch? Was Mary inflicting these things on these other girls? Of course not. They were all caught up in the moment and surely must have had massive amounts of adrenaline rushing through their bodies. After all, their lives were on the line.

I think that's what happens in church a lot. People get caught up in the moment. Don't worship while singing a song to The Most High during choir practice. No. Wait until the appointed time when the music is blaring and there is more people there. No doubt they are really feeling something, but so were the girls in the court room on April 18, 1692. In fact, they all fainted, and had enough physiological evidence to convince 3 judges that they weren't pretending.

Our worship needs to be spontaneous, not rehearsed, not coerced and certainly not part of a show.

[Manila1485]

For starters, dear Angel, you are not an old lady!

I absolutely believe it was spontaneous - just as you might spontaneously break into song. The Bible doesn't say if he did some traditional dance or if it was something completely free form. My thought was only that I don't have a problem with a more organized form of dancing as long as the motive is for the glory of God. We've all seen singers, musicians, and even some preachers, that seemed to be doing their thing just to impress the people and it was devoid any inspiration from God or glory to God. I think most of us have enough discernment to pick up on that sort of thing.

On a related note, we had a guest preacher last Sunday, who brought up the question of why people who are sitting in the back of the church have to come up to the front of the church to praise and dance (in front of everyone) and why can't they do it wherever they were sitting? As a musician I've always wondered why we seem to need music (the faster the better usually) to "worship" God. Seems to me that if it's worship, you can do it with or without music (and anytime I wanted to dance before the Lord, I needed to do it on my "own time" without music"). Similarly, I heard another teacher ask why people make a big deal out of raising their hands in church when they don't lift their hands in private worship. It kind of begs the question for motivation I suppose if someone praises one way in church and another way (or not at all) at home. I'm not trying to make any direct accusations or anything like that, but just to express a general thought that maybe we have ways of thinking about what are the right and wrong ways to praise God that are more based on our culture and traditions than the actual Biblical experience.

I've always wondered the same thing about people going up to the front. As for the raising of hands, I raise my hands at home, in private. I can't imagine why others don't. I've always presumed that other people did.

As for the music, I see what your'e saying but I'm not totally with you. Music all by itself IS worship...even if nobody is dancing, singing, claping or raising their hands. The one making the music is the one doing the worshiping. Music has two purposes (I have strained by brain and can't think of any more) and that is to: 1) worship God 2) minister to others. That's it. Of course, it is not required in order for one to dance, sing, clap or raise their hands, but it is on the list of ways we are to worship God.

[MawMaw]

I wonder what it's like to have someone teach a choreographed worship dance? :blink:

Do they say....."no no sis, you have to raise both hands, then step to the right twice then backward once, then left.........that's it, you're almost there keep practicing!!"

[MawMaw]

Didn't you know that he announced a practice 1 1/2 before church and instructed them wear all black as well as require the use of black lights, stage props, etc? :)

If I wanted to be entertained I would just go home (and on the way, buy a tv.)

and watch those exciting teleevangelists!! :woot_jump:

[MawMaw]

:bow:
Praise Dancers In The Church !
Oh YEAH, I'm For Them

What a glorious sight to see Mother Owens {95+/-} Dancing a Holy Dance and Praising God in the Spirit.

Heavy set Bro. Herb doing the Two Step under the Annointing when he cannot even keep time.

Someone singing a special song and the Holy Ghost Falls ---
You Talk About PRAISE DANCERS YEAH, WHEN THE HOLY GHOST BEGINS TO FALL,
Then and only Then
I'm all for Praise Dancers'
and Praise Singers'
and Praise Praisers',
and Praise Worshippers',
and Praise Preachers',
ETC.
:bow:
http://www.acts238holinessorhell.com[/url]

If we are talking about spontanious praise that results in dancing I am all for it. If we are talking about a group of people who are practicing dance steps and learning to dance in church count me out.
I refuse to be part of that.
God bless
BroRutledge

My thoughts on the subject, agree with these 2 elders.

[Manila1485]

I wonder what it's like to have someone teach a choreographed worship dance? :blink:

Do they say....."no no sis, you have to raise both hands, then step to the right twice then backward once, then left.........that's it, you're almost there keep practicing!!"

That's exactly right! I've seen it! I have heard it with my own two ears "...this part in the song is when you bend over, touch your toes, twirl around and grab your nose..." or whatever it was they said.

And when you put it the way you did, it really puts things into perspective. Thanks, MawMaw! :)

[MawMaw]

That's exactly right! I've seen it! I have heard it with my own two ears "...this part in the song is when you bend over, touch your toes, twirl around and grab your nose..." or whatever it was they said.

And when you put it the way you did, it really puts things into perspective. Thanks, MawMaw! :)

:laugh: oh mercy!!

[angelindesguise]

:icon_laug:icon_laug:icon_laug:icon_laug:icon_laug

:laugh: oh mercy!!


Originally Posted by Manila1485 http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.goodnewscafe.net/showthread.php?p=370267#post370267)
That's exactly right! I've seen it! I have heard it with my own two ears "...this part in the song is when you bend over, touch your toes, twirl around and grab your nose..." or whatever it was they said.

And when you put it the way you did, it really puts things into perspective. Thanks, MawMaw!


You-uns are just to funny. :)

[missourimary]

If we only dance or shout in church when the music is playing, is the worship truly in our hearts or only in the atmosphere around us?

Shouting and dancing on demand (choreographed or directed by encouragement from a song leader) seem very much like a lot of things in the world today. We want instant worship just as we want instant oatmeal, microwave dinners, and high speed internet. None of those things are bad, but true worship is "in spirit and in truth" and therefore is not "instant" but rather stirred through repentance, prayer, fasting, study, dedication and faithfulness.

[tealbee99]

Shouting and dancing on demand (choreographed or directed by encouragement from a song leader) seem very much like a lot of things in the world today. We want instant worship just as we want instant oatmeal, microwave dinners, and high speed internet. None of those things are bad, but true worship is "in spirit and in truth" and therefore is not "instant" but rather stirred through repentance, prayer, fasting, study, dedication and faithfulness.

I love the way you said that Mary!:angel:

[Manila1485]

If we only dance or shout in church when the music is playing, is the worship truly in our hearts or only in the atmosphere around us?

Shouting and dancing on demand (choreographed or directed by encouragement from a song leader) seem very much like a lot of things in the world today. We want instant worship just as we want instant oatmeal, microwave dinners, and high speed internet. None of those things are bad, but true worship is "in spirit and in truth" and therefore is not "instant" but rather stirred through repentance, prayer, fasting, study, dedication and faithfulness.

Excellent!

True worship isn't something that can be planned or choreographed.

[jhlent]

I was listening to a message recently (Jeff Arnold, I think) who made the statement about people who think their praise is "Pentecostal" and his comment was, no, it's Jewish. Nearly everything we find out methods of praise is based from the Old Testament. Exodus talks about Miriam going out with the women with their timbrels and "dances". It doesn't say they "danced", it says they had "dances" (more than one and distinguishable from one another).

I'm not convinced that this wasn't similar to the traditional Jewish dances that are done today. While not rehearsed per se, they are certainly coordinated and not just spontaneous movement. We have a family in our church from Ghana and in their Apostolic church services (they brought back some video footage) the men dance in a circle together and the women in their own circle. I sort of like this idea even better than how we do it...no chance of "Sister Sally" getting up to prove how "spiritual she is" and get the glory from God!

There is a huge difference between performance and praise, not only in dance, but in singing, playing of music, etc. (There is also a huge difference between praise and worship, but that's likely another topic.) There's a comedian that grew up in church and said that "you can always tell what decade people got saved in by the way that they danced". In our current UPC culture, I don't think that "praise dancers" would go over well in most circles, but I don't think it's anything evil either. We kind of treat dancing as being more sacred and intimate worship, as a "deeper step" in our praise. (There's really nothing Biblical that I can find that supports that, it's just what our culture has developed.) I suspect the thought of "dancing before the Lord" being something that is planned and rehearsed may make it seem like it is "cheap" and insincere to some. I spend a lot of time practicing my music and singing so that I can offer Him the very best that I am able, maybe these dancers feel the same way.Some VERY good & VALID Points

[jhlent]

If we only dance or shout in church when the music is playing, is the worship truly in our hearts or only in the atmosphere around us?

Shouting and dancing on demand (choreographed or directed by encouragement from a song leader) seem very much like a lot of things in the world today. We want instant worship just as we want instant oatmeal, microwave dinners, and high speed internet. None of those things are bad, but true worship is "in spirit and in truth" and therefore is not "instant" but rather stirred through repentance, prayer, fasting, study, dedication and faithfulness.
hahahaha THIS made me laugh :woot_jump:

I SOOOooooooo Agree - Too many of you act like the Lord & Church are much like a drive up window...

[jhlent]

I wonder what it's like to have someone teach a choreographed worship dance? :blink:

Do they say....."no no sis, you have to raise both hands, then step to the right twice then backward once, then left.........that's it, you're almost there keep practicing!!" That's exactly right! I've seen it! I have heard it with my own two ears "...this part in the song is when you bend over, touch your toes, twirl around and grab your nose..." or whatever it was they said.

And when you put it the way you did, it really puts things into perspective. Thanks, MawMaw! :)
You put your right foot in,
You put your right foot out;
You put your right foot in,
And you shake it all about.
You do the Holy~Hokey-Pokey,
And you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about!

:agent:

[jhlent]

People get caught up in the moment.
Don't worship while singing a song to The Most High during choir practice. No.
Wait until the appointed time when the music is blaring and there is more people there.
No doubt they are really feeling something....

Our worship needs to be spontaneous, not rehearsed, not coerced and certainly not part of a show.
Kind of sounds like what happened in the book of Daniel....

The Music begins
And the people begin to worship.....

[Manila1485]

Kind of sounds like what happened in the book of Daniel....

The Music begins
And the people begin to worship.....

I wonder why they don't do it during choir practice.

[bjc40]

I have to agree with those to oppose "organized" praise dancing. When David danced before the LORD, his steps weren't "chreographed."
Are the church members trying to "mimic" the work of the Holy Spirit by organizing "praise dancing"?
It seems in order to appeal to "the flesh", some of the churches have substituted "the spirit of entertainment" for the Holy Spirit.
For example:
Notice how many of the "praise dancers" are really overweight, like they weigh over 200 lbs? How many are elderly? Seems they are all younger and in good physical shape, aren't they?
Sooooooooooo,
if we are going to have "praise dancing", why not "praise pole-dancing"? After all, it's just "praise dancing"...........
and yall's opinion?
just wondering,
Bro.bjc4-

[tealbee99]

I wonder why they don't do it during choir practice.


With you all the way on this one Manila....there have been a few times over the years (sadly only a few) when we just had all out church during choir practice! That's true worship...when it's all about Him and not about what emotions our flesh in enjoying at the moment.

[Manila1485]

I have to agree with those to oppose "organized" praise dancing. When David danced before the LORD, his steps weren't "chreographed."
Are the church members trying to "mimic" the work of the Holy Spirit by organizing "praise dancing"?
It seems in order to appeal to "the flesh", some of the churches have substituted "the spirit of entertainment" for the Holy Spirit.
For example:
Notice how many of the "praise dancers" are really overweight, like they weigh over 200 lbs? How many are elderly? Seems they are all younger and in good physical shape, aren't they?
Sooooooooooo,
if we are going to have "praise dancing", why not "praise pole-dancing"? After all, it's just "praise dancing"...........
and yall's opinion?
just wondering,
Bro.bjc4-

I don't think it would be any different. You still have the two main elements: people performing and a captive audience. Many times the lights are turned off and special effects are added. Why not go ahead and get a fog machine too? If you're going to mimic the world, why not go all out and do it right?

I'm thinking along the lines of drama teams too. To quote someone else who posted something in this thread: We have far too many actors and actresses in The Church as it is.