What does the Bible say about War?

[Phyllis]

The Bible is very practical here: it says “as much as it depends on you … as far as it’s possible on your behalf, live at peace with everybody."

However, I think this is also implying that sometimes it’s impossible to live at peace with others. Have you ever met someone who - no matter what you did - you just couldn't get along with? No matter what you did, he could not be appeased.

So what about war?
First, you have to look at the real causes of war: The Bible says that two things cause most wars: selfishness and pride. James 4:1-2 (Jerusalem Bible) says, “Where do these wars and battles between yourselves first start? Isn't it precisely in the desires fighting inside your own selves? You want something and you haven't got it; so you're prepared to kill. You have an ambition you can't satisfy, so you fight to get your way by force.”

Whenever there is a battle between two nations, a battle between two businesses, a battle between an employer and employee, labor and management, husband and wife, parent and child - whenever there is conflict - somebody (maybe both) is exhibiting selfishness or pride. I want my way. You want your way. We're going to have conflict.

I remember reading a story about Abraham Lincoln. He was walking down the street one day with his two boys, and they were both crying and frustrated. A man passing by asked, “What's wrong with your little boys?” Lincoln said, “Nothing more than what’s wrong with the world! I have three walnuts and each boy wants two.”

Is it ever right to fight?
Yes! There are times when it’s the lesser of two evils. There are times when it is appropriate and there are times when it is inappropriate. Ecclesiastes 3:8 says, “There is a time for war and a time for peace.” The Bible is very realistic. Sometimes war is the right thing.

The Bible is very honest about this. There are many, many examples in the Bible where God commanded a war - where God said, “Go to war!” When you look at the great heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 - Joshua, David, Gideon, Samson - these guys were all warriors.

When you study the ministry of Jesus, you see He never told Roman soldiers to leave the army. If Jesus had been a total pacifist, every time he saw a solider, He would have said, “Leave your army! Come follow Me.” But He never once said it was morally wrong for them to be in the service. In fact, in Matthew 24:6, He said there will always be wars in the world until the Prince of Peace comes back.

So, was Jesus a pacifist? I DON'T think He was! Twice in the New Testament, He cleansed the temple by force. The Bible says He made a whip, and He went in and cleansed the temple. He didn't politely ask them, “Would you guys, pretty please, get out of here?” He forced them out.

So how do you know when it’s right to fight?
It's right to fight...
1. IN ORDER TO PRESERVE FREEDOM. There are many examples in the Bible of this. Once God told Joshua to wipe out the Midianites because they were very oppressive. They had all kinds of evil practices like throwing babies into the fire. It was a terrible, atrocious culture. In Numbers 32, God gets very upset - in fact, He expresses anger at two tribes in Israel - because they WOULDN’T go to war. You have to decide what's worth dying for. If you don't know what's worth dying for, you don't know what's worth living for. There are some things that are worse than war.

2. IN ORDER TO PROTECT INNOCENT PEOPLE. Proverbs 21:15 says, “When justice is done it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evil doers.” Christians should not just be interested in peace. We want peace, but we should also want justice. Peace at any price is not peace. Peace at any price is appeasement. Our God is not only a God of peace; He is also a God of justice. John Stuart Mill said, “A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for - nothing which he cares about more than his personal safety - is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free.”

3. IN ORDER TO STOP THE SPREAD OF EVIL. The Bible makes it very clear that God has authorized the government to enforce the law and punish offenders. Romans 13:4 says, “The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong.” (NLT)

Will The World Ever Have Permanent Peace?
Someday it will, but it's not going to happen until Jesus Christ comes back. There are actually more verses in the Bible about Jesus' second coming than there are about His first coming at Bethlehem. In John 14, Jesus said, "Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions. If it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there you may be also.”

The Bible says that when Jesus comes back, He will set up a reign of peace on the earth. According to Isaiah, this is what it's going to be like: “He (Jesus) will settle disputes among nations. They will hammer their swords into plows and their spears into pruning knives. Nations will never again to go to war, never prepare for battle again.”

Do you know this verse is at the United Nations building? - “They'll hammer their swords into plows and their spears into pruning knives.” But they forgot the most important part – “He will settle the disputes." Jesus, not the United Nations! We'll never have ultimate peace until the Prince of Peace establishes His reign on the earth.

The question I've probably been asked more than any other one in the past few weeks is this:

Is This The Final War?
Is this the one that leads to the second coming of Christ? It could be, BUT WE DON’T KNOW. The Bible is very clear that history is moving toward a climax and a last great battle, but we don't know if this is it or not. I'm no expert on the Second Coming, but I do know somebody who is - His name is Jesus. Let's look at what He has to say about the End of Times.

Luke 21:8-9: “Don't be fooled. Many will come in My name saying, ‘I am He!’ and ‘The time has come!’ But don't follow them. Don't be afraid when you hear of wars and revolutions; such things must happen but they don't mean the end is near. Countries will fight each other and kingdoms will attack one another.”

First, He says, “Don't be fooled ….” Don't believe everything you hear or read. There have been dozens and dozens of books that have set dates for the last days, and every one of them have been 100 percent wrong!

Notice it says, “… such things must happen ….” In the last 3,400 years there have only been 268 years that have seen no war. During the 6,000 years of recorded history, the world has averaged about two and a half wars per year. In the history of 185 generations, only ten of those generations have experienced unbroken peace. So when Jesus said, “There are going to be wars and rumors of wars,” He knew what He was talking about. We live in a fallen world.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:36, “No one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Not only did He say nobody knows, He said it's none of your business. Acts 1:7-8 says, “It's not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by His own authority. But you are to be My witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the world.”

Three times in Matthew 25 He says, “Be ready!” He could come at any time but nobody knows the time. Acts 1:7-8 contains the last words of Jesus before he went back to heaven. You figure the last words are probably the most important thing He wants to talk about. Isn't it interesting how the disciples asked a question about prophecy, and Jesus turns the question to evangelism?

They want to talk about when He's coming back. He wants to talk about winning the world - that's the priority of Jesus’ heart. He wants everybody to know Him.

How should we - as Christians - respond during war?
First, we should pray
1 Timothy 2:1-2 says, “First of all pray for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life." Let’s pray for are our leaders. Pray for the president, pray for the generals, and pray for the Congress.

Notice the benefit of praying for your leaders: You'll end up living quiet and peaceful lives. We also ought to pray for our soldiers, the men and women who are over there.

The Bible says we also ought to pray for our enemies. We ought to pray that they will have a change of heart.

Second, we should trust God
The Bible says, “The Lord is my light and salvation. Whom shall I fear? Though an army besiege me and war break out against me, even then I will be confident.” While we pray for our soldiers, we also accept the fact that when war happens, there are casualties. So we're to pray and trust God, realizing that God is in control.

Third, we should seek peace
The Bible says, “Turn from evil and do good. Seek peace and pursue it.” I think it not only means peace between nations, but also peace everywhere else. You need to seek peace in your family. You need to seek peace with your spouse. You need to seek peace with your children. You need to seek peace with people you are estranged from at work. That's the mark of a Christian!

Fourth, we need to support each other
The Bible says, “Carry each other's burdens and fulfill the law of Christ.” In a crisis such as this, I think the church can really show itself as a family. We are to be a family - an extended family - where we act as an extended network of support for those whose lives are influenced and affected by this war.

God bless
Sister Phyllis

[Sandy]

Sister Phyllis,

I for one really liked your answers to these issues, as they seemed to be filled with a lot of wisdom. I have often thought about the same thing. Even to the point of whether it would be right to kill someone to protect your loved ones. Although I know what I would probably do instinctively if anyone tried to bring harm to another intentionally, my being able to do something about it, whether they were my family or not.

[BroDane]

That was a awesome post sister Phyllis!! :tup: :tup:

[Blest]

Great post Sis Phyllis - very succinct!

This issue was discussed at length in the old forum, and I was surprised at how many people feel that passivity is the way to go.

I, too, would defend my children, or someone else for that matter if they were being attacked. The war we are in is the same principle, only on a larger scale. Notice how the Iraq people are waving the white flags - they want to get out from under Saddam's rule, and surrendering to their 'enemy' is better to them than living under S. Hussein.

On another note, there has been speculation that Pres. Bush is not going to be stopping after Saddam is out of the way, that he wants to take care of business with Iran as well, and N. Korea. If this is true, it could be the reason it took so long to go to war with Iraq..... it's going to be very interesting.
Blest

[Truthseeker]

Phyllis

regarding protecting the innocent and spread of evil, would it be justfied for another country to attack the USA to stop the thousands of murders that happen to unborn babies?

What about if USA was attacked in the time of slavery and the Jim crows law(which hasn't been long ago) to liberate the blacks from the oppression of the evil white govenment, would it have been a justfied war?

[Phyllis]

Truthseeker, I will answer you question with three points from my above posting Thery are:

1. IN ORDER TO PRESERVE FREEDOM. There are many examples in the Bible of this. Once God told Joshua to wipe out the Midianites because they were very oppressive. They had all kinds of evil practices like throwing babies into the fire. It was a terrible, atrocious culture. In Numbers 32, God gets very upset - in fact, He expresses anger at two tribes in Israel - because they WOULDN’T go to war. You have to decide what's worth dying for. If you don't know what's worth dying for, you don't know what's worth living for. There are some things that are worse than war.

2. IN ORDER TO PROTECT INNOCENT PEOPLE. Proverbs 21:15 says, “When justice is done it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evil doers.” Christians should not just be interested in peace. We want peace, but we should also want justice. Peace at any price is not peace. Peace at any price is appeasement. Our God is not only a God of peace; He is also a God of justice. John Stuart Mill said, “A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for - nothing which he cares about more than his personal safety - is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free.”

3. IN ORDER TO STOP THE SPREAD OF EVIL. The Bible makes it very clear that God has authorized the government to enforce the law and punish offenders. Romans 13:4 says, “The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong.” (NLT)

God has placed governments and their leaders in power to look after things that you have mentioned above in your posting. I don't think we can compare what is happeing in Iraq wiith what happens within our own countries It is my opinion that our laws are there to protect us from such evil, to protect our little ones etc. Remember, with the war that is going on in Iraq and elsewhere is mostly due to terrorism and the brutality of the Iraq people etc. Al Quieda attacked your citizens and others in the world and committed mass murder as a result. It was an attack on your country and they need to be stopped.

Abortion and slavery was and is a problem within ones own country I believe and our laws should take care of it in a legal way. . Abortions and slavery are worng in my my opinion

I am not familiiar with Jim crows law likly because I am a Canadian so not sure if we have that or not. Please explain that one to me if you like.

The questions you have asked are difficult ones to answer but Jesus knows the answers better than I so lets turn to Him for the right answer [smile]

God bless
sis Phyllis

[Truthseeker]

Sis Phyllis

I agree there are difficult questions that can be raised about war and so on.
I'm just not into the christianizing of USA.
Look at history and we will see USA has and is far from a christian nation.

God only has one nation, the church.

Jim crow laws are the segregation laws such as white only water fountain and so on....

[searching]

Sis. Phyllis, great post. You wrote exactly what I feel and believe. Another thing that it seems that a few people here aren't realizing is that when Jesus comes back with His saints to fight in the war of Armageddon, there will be so much blood shed, it will be to the horses' bridles! If God doesn't think Christians should be in the military, why is He still waiting for His fight to take place, with good on one side, evil on the other?

God never indicated that fighting for the good of all people isn't the right thing to do.

Me...

[drummerboy_dave]

A very fine dissertation, Sis. Phyllis.
Right on target.

[Sandy]

I have been thinking a lot about this issue, and I have to agree with you Phyllis.

I have to wonder, if the chips were down, what each of those would do in the event that they and there families were threatened. Would they defend themselves? Some would probably say no they wouldn't, believing it too. And probably, in some instances it would not be the Lords will for some to do so either at certain times, and they woud comply. But that does not mean this might be true always in every instance.

I have to wonder, if taking anothers life under any circumstances was not of the Lord, then I have a very difficult time believing that God would have had the men do so even before Jesus Christ came. I mean, could He not have protected them by sending legions of angels to appear to them always, causing the enemy to run off? But He didn't but rather often instructed them to go themselves. And so for me to say that God isn't doing so today as well, for HIs own purposes, whatever they may be in the end, is not for me to say. So neither will I judge another because they do so either.

[Nawbee]

To Phyllis:

It is vanity to use the OT to try to prove a point in the NT era.

The OT was FULFILLED in Jesus Christ.

To that end, Jesus was Given ALL authority in Heaven and Earth at His Resurrection.

Since vengence is God's, it then became the Property of Jesus. In the OT since vengence was God's, He could then Give it to whom He wanted. Anyone He authorized then could be His Instrument of vengence.

The Arrival of Jesus changed nothing in that regard. Vengence is still God's, only NOW the One and Only Intrument of vengence is JESUS CHRIST.

Not the agents of Jesus.

Not the sinful governments that yet bear the sword.

And not for any reason can this Authority be taken from Him.

Your fear for your loved ones is sin.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

"For whatsoever is not of faith is sin..."

There is only One Freedom for mankind:

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Though it says that Jesus made a whip, where does it say He hit anyone with it?

You cannot give me one instance where Jesus told anyone to harm anyone else.

Not one.

You can not give me one instance where an apostle of Jesus told anyone to harm anyone else.

Not one.

Do thou likewise.

As for not being able to live with some people in peace, it is true. If they knock you down and kick you after you have returned good for their evil, you are not at peace with them. If they nail you to a cross, you are not at peace with them. If they pierce your side with a spear, you are not at peace with them.

Still, you are not authorized to return harm for their harm.

Trust in God to save and Protect you and your family.

When the sword has failed to do this, He will yet Prevail!

[Nawbee]

To Sandy:
Look again. Every person or nation that trusted in God to protect them in the OT was Delivered by Miracles.

Those who were faithful yet hard hearted were Commanded that if they would kill, to NOT PROFIT FINANCIALLY by it in that they must kill all, even those they would own.

Jesus conceded the authority of Pilate. He conceded that the authority to crucify Him was Given to Pilate of God Himself.

Was Pilate then just and righteous to crucify Jesus?

Paul conceded that the Romans were a power authorized of God. He went on to tell the first century church to not rebel against the Romans. The Romans not only put Paul to death but many thyousands of his brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Was Rome just and righteous to bear the sword so?

Or did they, in the end, PAY DEARLY to be in authority?

Yes, God used them to Punish the Israelies but did He then account the Romans as Righteous?

Or did He Come after them?

Jesus said to turn the other cheek. The point isn't to not defend yourself (by getting out of the way) but that the cheek no longer belongs to you but to HIM!

Let Him Protect His property.

[Sandy]

Yes Nawbee, There is nothing in the NT that indicates we are to protect ourselves personally. That I agree. But are we never ever to protect others, or go to war to protect others? That is the question. And apparently, at least in the OT anyway, they definitely did, being sent of God to do so, and the NT does not really say specifically one way or the other. If it did, I really believe Jesus would have told the Roman soldier to stop doing what he was doing. Just because Paul may have told them not to fight against the Romans, does not mean everyone that does go to war today or yesterday is wrong.

In fact, Paul knew what was going to happen to him when he went to Jerusalem, but went anyway. I believe he went because it was God's will for Him to do so. Even though he most likely had a choice in the matter too. Why else would God send someone to prophecy to him the outcome? But on the other hand, there were plenty of times when he ran from them too. I believe he did so then because it was the Lords will for him to do so, even though he was doing completely the opposite of what he did in the end. No, he never fought against them, true. Evidently because God did not want him to do so. But my point is, God may tell you to do one thing today, and completely the opposite tomorrow. Just as God told the Israelites to fight sometimes, but then told them not to at other times.

So therefore, I am not going to judge those that do, since the bible is not really specific about this issue apparently.

[Phyllis]

I agree with you Sandy in what you have said and I too will not judge I believe that God is in total control and He will take care of it all one way or another . Prasie the Lord!

Nawbee- to your statement or question

"Was Pilate then just and righteous to crucify Jesus?""

Whether Pilate was just and righteous is not really the big question but the fact that the crucifiction of our Savior was in accordance with the plan of God for our salvation. If He had not died for us we would be lost today God uses who or what He needs to to fulfill His plan of us Glory!

To your other question or statement

Was Rome just and righteous to bear the sword so?


I give the same answer as above that God is in control and what He does or who He chooses to use to fulfill His divine plan for us is in His hands.

God bless
Sis phyllis

[Nawbee]

To Phyllis:
I see you have chosen what you will ignore quite carefully. The "question" was about authority and who has it, especially in matters of killing. You have said nothing of that.

Let me answer yours, which is, are there reasons to kill, specifically, when others do evil unto us or loved ones:

1 Thesallonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth.

My questions for you:
What do you bring forth from the treasures of your heart?

Is it Wrought in the faith and confidence of knowing the Love and Provision of God?

[Phyllis]

To your question to me which was:

What do you bring forth from the treasures of your heart?

My prayer is that what comes out of my heart is love for all mankind , the love of Jesus and the desire to be a witness to those I come in contact with and to help them to come into the truth of Jesus name and to be saved and thus be able to endure to the end .

Also I would hope that out of my heart would come the fruit of the spirit found in Galatians 5: 22-23"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness. goodness, faith, meakness, temperance, against such there is no law."

As to who has the authority to kill - I believe personally we do not have the authority to kill ,that is to go out and kll for the sake of killing. The bible says thou shalt not kill- but that is not referring to our governments killing in times of war.

The Lord instituted governments and leaders to rule over us and we are to submit to them if they are in line with the word of God.

Genesis 9:6 says,"Whoso sheddeth man's blood by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made he man"

Because of the desire for violence and bloodshed that arises within the human heart (6:11: 8:21) God sought to guard the sanctity of human life. He did this in two ways: 1) by emphasizing that humans have been created in His image (1:26) and that their lives are sacred in His sight; 2) by instituting capital punishment, commanding that every murdreer be punished with death (Ex 21:12, 14; 22:2; Num 35:6-34; Deut. 19: 1 -13 ; Rom 13:4)

The authority of governments to use the "sword" for captital punishment is reaffirmed in the N.T. (Acts 25: 11 ; Mat 26: 52)

So, the law has the authority to kill not us personally. The governments that God has placed over us .

God bless
sister Phyllis

[Blest]

Nawbee -

Please refrain from the sarcastic and contentious posts. It just isn't necessary.

What does it do? It causes strife, and ignites 'war' between the brethren.

Thank you.
Blest

[Sandy]

Nawbee,

Does the Lord kill evil himself, by striking them dead? If so, and you know He does so, then why is it so difficult to believe that He might also command even his children at times to do likewise for His own purposes, since He has done so himself? And in turn, why is it so difficult then to believe that He might even be behind what is going on today as well, even though I am sure there are both evil men as well as good doing this?

[searching]

I do not believe it's the will of God that any just stand around and wait for their destruction. The enemy is all around, and even in the spiritual realm, the Bible commands us to put on armor, and even carry a sword. If we are commanded to do that against spiritual evil, why do some of us feel differently in the natural? Someone said that every person or nation that trusted in God to protect them in the OT was Delivered by Miracles. Iwant to say that they didn't sit around their camps while the enemy approached, crying "Please God, save us!" Not that God couldn't have saved them, but instead God told them to go to other camps and kill those that sought to harm them, even the women and children. God helps those that help themselves, and while He is powerful enough to put an end to all of this, He chooses not to. I believe His hand is in this land, and I believe that nothing is going to happen without being in His will and power.

Me...

[drummerboy_dave]

:huh:
Nawbee scolds Phyllis, from his high and lofty place:
It is vanity to use the OT to try to prove a point in the NT era.
Nawbee then replies to Sandy:
Every person or nation that trusted in God to protect them in the OT was Delivered by Miracles.

:confused: Drummerboy scratches his head, and wonders if Nawbee can see the hypocrisy of his remarks. :D

[drummerboy_dave]

Sis. Phyllis,

I appreciate your cool head and your thourough understanding of this topic.

[searching]

Even though God's people trusted Him, they also had to obey or suffer the consequences. Bush is a praying man, and since we have no idea what God says to him, it's easy for us to judge and condemn him as doing the wrong thing. There were many people in Moses' camp that also thought that, and look what happened to them.

Me...

[Phyllis]

I thank all of you for your kind remarks I do so appreciate any help you can give on this topic.

God bless
sis phyllis

[Nawbee]

I have written nothing sarcastic.

As for hypocrisy in my statement about the OT being used to make points in the NT era, I meant to use the OT to form doctrine.

Sorry for the confusion.

I won't really belate the topic of killing and calling yourselves Christian. I believe that anyone who reads the Word will come to the conclusion that since Christ, no one is to take active violence to another human.

None of you have supplied the Word of God to back your assertions, only the reasoning of men and that riddled with fear.

To that end and to insure that motives other than love and universal understanding in Christ Jesus by His Living Spirit are not ascribed to my posts, I will only post the Word of God in this topic from now until God Exposes the Truth to all to whom He alone Accounts worthy of such.

I mean no one any harn whatsoever and respect the right to their own opinion of even the most violent and hostile detractor or opponent of the Peace that Dwells within me and only wish to account them as family in the Unity of the Spirit of Christ Jesus.

[dllong]

My thoughts,

My highest calling is being a father. Protecting my children is one of the many things I take very seriously. As a father, if ANYONE threatens their life in anyway, you can bet I WILL protect them, even if it means killing the person threatening them.

Protecting my children and family is also extended to my being an American. If there is a threat to my country, which would likely upset the well being of my family and threaten their life, you can bet I will fight to the death.

I suspect that only those who are fathers and mothers will understand my feeling regarding this issue more than others.

Dave Long

[Sandy]

Nawbee writes:
I mean no one any harn whatsoever and respect even the most violent and hostile detractor or opponent of the Peace that Dwells within me and only wish to account them as family in the Unity of the Spirit of Christ Jesus.

First of all, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. As if anyone can remove the Peace of God that dwells within another unless they allow them to by choosing somehow or others to walk in unrighteousness. For peace and joy within is the result of walking in His righteousness to begin with. If you do not believe me, then just begin to walk in sin, and see how quickly that peace and joy leaves.

And do you honestly believe that peace does not dwell in anyone that does not oppose war, and to suggest such a thing is not an insult? Come on. I have been around these boards to long not to recognize one when it slaps you in the face, subtle or not. and most of them are subtle too.

I probably should not even say this, because I really don't have to defend where I am at with the Lord to anyone. But you are very wrong if you do not believe this ole girl walks in the peace and joy of God within her, because she does. Not because of what she does either, but because of what He has done in this ole girls life. Nor is my opinion based on fear either. Saying that because God has been so very gracious to me to also fill me with His abounding love. I don't know why, but I know I am very awed and grateful for His doing so, as I now know also that it is being filled with His love every day that burns up the chaff that may still exist in my life. Which I cannot do in an of myself.

Furthemore, nobody was bringing forth any doctrinal issues from the OT either, but simply stating a fact. That God did send forth warriers to kill then, and probably very well does so today too, for His own purposes, which is to bring forth the gospel to peoples in the end, not to mention for the protection of other Christians that are not able to defend themselves as well. Very often we do not understand Gods ways, (Is. 55:8-9) and therefore try to change them to suit what we would like to think they should be. Especially when they are unpleasant.

And yes, the NT does not mention one way or the other whether A Christian should get involved in war, taking up arms. But it certainly does speak of wars happening none the less. And I happen to believe that God is in more control of this ole world as a whole than we give Him credit for sometimes too.

And yes, I read some of the statements that were written within the other thread on this subject, your mentioning your kindness not to say it, at least until now anyway. And it was after reading these statements that brought me to the decision not to post there on this issue at all.

So I will bid you farewell for now, and thank you for your thoughts none the less, even though I do disagree with you, appreciating most of them anyway.

[Nawbee]

Phyllis:
What does the Bible say about War?

The Bible:
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[OurLordisone]

Jesus :
mathew 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

People don't go to war with the Ones that they love.
Would you kill the one that you Love?
Under what condition did Jesus say that we as christian are not to Love our enemies? under what condition did Jesus say that we as christians are to kill them?


Jesus:
Mt 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

If you were put in a situation where you had to deny Jesus for your wife to Live would your love for your wife cause you to deny Jesus? If you were put in a situation where you had to deny Jesus for your father or mother to live, would your love for your mother and father cause you to deny Jesus ? If you were put in a situation where you had to deny Jesus for your son or daughter that you love dearly to live ,would your love for your son or daughter cause you to deny Jesus?

We has christians have a war to fight but it is not carnal warfare that we fight with carnal weapons, It is a spiritual warfare:
Paul:
Ephesians 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
6:12
For we wrestle not against * flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
6:14
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
6:15
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
6:16
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Jesus:
8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
8:33
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou *, Ye shall be made free?
8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you *, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth * ever.
8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The Wolrd preaches that freedom comes through democracy and war. WE as Christians know that Freedom for any man only Comes from obeying the gospel of Our Lord and saviour Jesus christ. There are many who live in a democratic country and they are not free becuase they are under the bondage of Sin. They are also many Christians that live under an oppressive dictator Who are Free becuase they have obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What then does it profit a man to Say that He has Freedom and in the End Lose His Soul? It profiteth him nothing:
Mr 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Now what does it profit those that lives under a Wicked dictator that Have obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ and are persecuted becuase of it?:
mathew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil * * against you falsely, for my sake *.
5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Our Focus and goal has Christians is to preach this gospel all over the wolrd to those that are lost becuase it is the only way they will be saved from the wrath of God. It is the only Way they will have true peace. It is the only way they will have true Freedom. If it means that we are going to be persecuted for it then SO be it. If it means that we will lose our Lives over it then so be it. We talk about having this great revival but The only way revival will come is when We realize that Our Warfare is not Carnal but spiritual. It won't come If we Aggree with the World that the road to Freedom is to Fight war and setup a democratic government.
We need to equip ourselves with the "whole armour of God", "breastplate of righteousness", "the gospel of peace", "shield of faith" "helmet of salvation" and the "Word of God". WE need to be on our knees praying that Those that are lost will come to Christ.

God bLess
OurLordisone

[Phyllis]

Ecclesiastes 3:8 states that there is a "time for war and a time for peace." In these times of warfare, we often ask, "How should we respond? What should be our attitude?" We will find biblical answers for these questions when we explore the ultimate issue: What does the Word of God say about warfare?

When a nation goes to war, God’s people need to fully understand their heavenly Father’s viewpoint about this matter. Naturally, God is not excited about war. He does not enjoy bloodshed and vengeance. However, He is dealing with a world of people who have a fallen nature—sinful, wicked and vile. Romans 3:10-11,15-17 describes mankind without God: "…there is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God. . . . Their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace they have not known."

God battles with people who oppose Him, who fight against Him and His followers. So, even though He hates war, God is not against it. Throughout the Old Testament, there are examples of God using warfare to carry out His plans, to punish the wicked and preserve His people (Deut. 9:4-6; Deut. 20; Jer. 5; Numbers 33:55-56). You may think, "How could God do that?" He says in Isaiah 55:9, "My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts." God has divine reasons for choosing to use war as a vehicle to accomplish His will.

In Scripture, God clearly establishes the government’s responsibilities and authority over us, as well. In Romans 13:1 and 4, Paul writes, "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. . .for it [the government] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."

The government is ordained by God with the right to promote good and restrain evil. This includes wickedness that exists within the nation, as well as any wicked persons or countries that threaten foreign nations. Obviously, there are times when a country should not go to war; but there are also times when, if a nation does not do so, they suffer the consequences. Therefore, a government has biblical grounds to go to war in the nation’s defense or to liberate others in the world who are enslaved.

You may think, "Well, how do we reconcile that with what Jesus said about loving our enemies and turning the other cheek?" (Luke 6:27-30) In that passage, Jesus was speaking to us as individuals. If someone treats us badly, we should love him anyway. We can pray for our enemies, and do good to those who hate us. The way someone treats an individual is one thing; the way he treats an entire nation is a completely different issue. The Bible teaches that it is the responsibility of the government’s leaders to protect the nation against those who would destroy it.

The Bible also instructs citizens in the proper way to respond when their country goes to war. For example, it is a violation of the Word of God to refuse to defend your country if ordered. Recall Romans 13:1-2: "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. . .Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." According to this verse, we’re to be submissive to the laws of the land. The only reason we have for disobeying the government is if it requires us to behave in a way that clearly violates some specific verse or command of God (Acts 5:27-32).

Someone might say, "But I can’t go to war because shooting the enemy would be murder, and the Bible says ‘you shall not murder’"(Exodus 20:13). Actually, when a man in combat shoots his enemy under the command of the government, without personal hatred, he is not committing murder. Instead, he is simply being obedient to the purpose for which he is fighting. To commit murder, a person must have vengeance and hatred against another. Many men have died on the battlefield without animosity toward anyone--they were fighting for a cause, defending or freeing their land. Therefore, if called, it is a citizen’s national and biblical responsibility to defend his country.

Even if we do not actually participate in the fighting, we are also called to create unity and harmony within the country. We need to support whatever decisions our nation makes, as long as they do not directly violate the Word of God. How can we justify the protests and marches against war? I understand that, in America,as well as in Canada, for example, we have a right to express our different opinions. However, there comes a time when our personal opinion is not a priority. The only reason we have the freedom to protest in this country is because thousands were willing to die for that liberty in the past.

Instead of resisting, we should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible during this time, especially by encouraging and helping the families of our soldiers. And the most important and powerful thing we can do for our nation is pray. Pray for our President, leaders, military, and even our enemies. God honors the prayers of His children and expects us to support those in authority.

Despite the many different opinions and philosophies about war, the most important consideration is God’s viewpoint. Throughout Scripture there is evidence that God favors war for divine reasons and sometimes uses it to accomplish His will. He has also given governments and their citizens very specific responsibilities in regards to this matter. This is a frightening time for all of the world’s citizens, but it is also a time for God’s people to rise up as a unified body against the global threat of evil and terror. I challenge you, as a child of God, to respond to this conflict as He desires: with an attitude of prayer, submission, and an unwavering dependence upon your heavenly Father.

God bless
Sister Phyllis

[Nawbee]

Phyllis:
We need to support whatever decisions our nation makes, as long as they do not directly violate the Word of God.

God in Christ Jesus:
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. 37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The Holy Ghost by the mouth of Paul:
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The Holy Ghost in John:
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

The Holy Ghost in Paul:
2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds; ) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[searching]

Sis. Phyllis, you made wonderful points, and brought things to mind that I have never seen in scripture before. You explanations of scripture are complimentary of what the Bible teaches, and I commend you on your study of the Word.

Nawbee, your posting of scripture without explanation seems to be an attempt to show where scripture contradicts itself. Since I don't believe that is possible, it makes one wonder if you even know and understand what you are posting. Care to explain the above scriptures, and how they disprove the scriptures Sis. Phyllis quoted without making them contradictory?

Me...

[Phyllis]

Thank you searching I feel very humbled by your words to me I love the study o f God';s word and I am very new to this apostolic faith but since coming into truth Jesus has opened my eyes and as I read His word it is as if the Holy Ghost is teaching me what i am to know bit by bit Praise the Lord! I have much to learn and I am very open to be taught so thank all of you for you input here. God bless you

Sister phyllis

[Nawbee]

OK, The Word has been posted and if you cannot understand it, the only explanation is that its Meaning has been Hidden from you.

Since you account Phyllis to be a teacher, God Commands I ask this, and I warn all, THIS IS GRAPHIC AND IS NOT FOR THE WEAK OF HEART OR THE YOUNG.

I recently saw an intrview where soldiers were trying to stay hidden. Two girls walked by and spotted them. The soldier in charge guessed their ages as six and four, respectively. They called their commander to see if they should shoot the girls. The commander said that he had no doubt whatsoever that his men would have killed these two girls.

The Question for all who believe that God is Behind this war is this: Which girl should they shoot first and what prayer should be prayed while pulling the trigger?

Should they explode the head of the oldest and then the one of the youngest so she would not be old enough to understand fully what she saw meant? Or should they kill the youngest first to insure that her last few moments on earth were not defined by the horror of seeing her sister's head explode?

Of course the older one would then fully understand what had happened and even perhaps come to know she was next and even run.

God's Question to you who believe He Sanctifies War in the New Testament era is this and this alone: What shows these innocent children the Love of God in Christ Jesus?

Answer this question or stop saying that God is the Author of confusion!

It is confusion to say God Sanctions the killing of innocent children.

As for dllong, God has Said this: If you kill a man who has only threatened harm, his blood will be on your hands as if he had done the threatened harm and you killed him.

He Adds that the threat of harm is not harm.

I add that many threaten death but do not deliver death. To kill before they have delivered is to kill the innocent. To kill after is to put yourself in the Place of God.

Both are sins.

The first a sin of fear, the second one of anger.

Revenge and faith are all in Jesus Christ. There is no fear or doubt in Him.

[searching]

I don't believe you heard such a thing, and for various reasons. One of them being that there is nobody especially children that are freely roaming around where there are soldiers fighting. For another thing, our media would never make a report about that happening. I also doubt that with the media around, American soldiers would make such a comment. Where do you get your information anyway?

However, if that did happen, for you to make those men out to be Christians is horrendous, and to compare their actions to the actions of all and say that is the attitude they all hold is ludicrious. That would be like comparing the recent action of an American traitor who threw a grenade in his own company that saying, "See there, look what the soldiers are doing to themselves!!" I encourage you to watch more CNN, they are the most accurate news source.

Me...

[drummerboy_dave]

Nawbee,

I am both, astounded at the irrelevance of your point, and irritated at the disgraceful claim you've made.

At this point in time, I feel, we can no longer benefit, by discussing this topic. I withdraw.

[John Atkinson]

Nawbee? That claim is without any backing.

The reality is that if two little girls were in danger, an American soldier would give his life to protect and save theirs.

As much as I have said in the other thread that I believe the Church has no part in this war, and I still stand on that, The American troops are doing everything in their power to guard and protect civilians. Even surrendering Iraqi troops are accorded very humane treatment, in spite of many of them using the guise of surrender to attack.

If the US Military was to unleash their full capability, the war would be over and there wouldn't be much of an iraq left. Every attack we make is made with the safety od noncombatants in mind.

Where is your evidence for this? I have kept up with the progress of the war on several news websites, CNN. BBC, MSN etc; I haven't seen that one.

[Nawbee]

To Bro. Atkinson:
What exactly would you consider proof if my word is not to be believed?

This happened in the first war with Iraq. I saw it on TV. If they rerun it, would you like for me to send a tape or post it to the internet (spoken with humility and a deep desire for borthers and sisters to come to the truth)

I might add that we were "more justified" for the last war than we are for this one.

As for proof, with all due respect and deference to authority, I can only let my "yea be yea" at this point.

If you are in denial about this being the reality of war, what about the children and the unborn killed in bombing attacks?

As much as has been done to try to minimize this type of casualty, all admit freely that they cannot be avoided.

As for what American soldiers will and will not do, my experience, and it is considerable, is that many have done not only what I have stated above but things I will not post here or anywhere else unless the Lord Leads otherwise.

If they reair the interview, I will tape it. Otherwise I can say for a fact that this information and more like it is not hidden, IF one goes looking for the truth, that is.

[searching]

As with this war, I was very informed by the news while it was going on. And like I said above, I do not believe you are credible in what you say. You imply above that what you referred to had just happened, then you say it happened years ago. As I said above, there are no people, let alone children, freely roaming the streets while bombings and military personnel are nearby. I am not sure why you are making that story up, but you aren't making any points with anyone by not being credible.

As for killing of innocent lives, the Iraqi soldiers have slaughtered more innocent victims than we have in this war. They use them as shields, then execute them when they resist. The force their way into homes and tell the males they have no choice but to fight (yeah, even the little boys), and if they refuse, the family is executed.

You can come in here and justify being against this war all you want to, but you aren't the one living there under these conditions, and if you were, you would be welcoming the coalition forces as the Iraqi civilians are.

Me...

[OurLordisone]

Searching:
As I said above, there are no people, let alone children, freely roaming the streets while bombings and military personnel are nearby.

OurLordisone:
Huh? HOw can you make a statement Like this and you are not overthere? Also do you actually believe that majority of the iraqi people Love the U.S Or the muslim wolrd for that matter?

God bLEss
OurLordisone

[searching]

OurLordisone, have you been watching CNN? Do you know any Iraqi people personally? Have you heard about the Iraqi people who are helping the coalition forces tear down the pics of Saddam? Have you heard that Saddam's top officials are making his secret places known to the US? Have you seen Iraqi by the thousands that welcome us and are thankful that we are helping them get rid of the tyrannt that runs their lives?

Those military opposition forces, for the most part, are doing so because they are in fear of Saddam. Saddam has told them and made it well known that he will slaughter their families if they refuse to fight. Until his body in on the ground and they are able to kick it, they will continue to fight in fear. I have witnessed many of them surrender without resistance, and they are glad that they are POW's, because they will get better treatment as prisoners than they will get if Saddam gets his hands on them.

There are many injured Iraqi soldiers that are in the military hospitals, lying in beds, side by side with allied military that has also been injured. Have you heard about the execution of civilians by the Iraqi soldiers at the bidding of Saddam? Have you heard about Saddam bombing civilian buildings then blaming on coalition forces? Do you think Saddam started this mess just last week??

You need to wake up.

Me...

[OurLordisone]

Searching:
OurLordisone, have you been watching CNN? Do you know any
Iraqi people personally?

OurLordisone:
Yep I watch cnn(Cnn can be inaccurate with thier news at times). I also watch other news station. YEs I have friends that are Iraqi. And even though they hate saddam They don't have much loves for the states Ethier. YOu would be suprise of majority of the muslims I know who has nothing good to say about the states. The same news source that you watch even mentions this.


Searching:
Have you heard about the Iraqi people who are helping the coalition forces tear down the pics of Saddam?

OurLordisone:
Yeah the Kurdish forces also want to help overthrow Saddam.

Searching:
Have you heard that Saddam's top officials are making his secret places known to the US? Have you seen Iraqi by the thousands that welcome us and are thankful that we are helping them get rid of the tyrannt that runs their lives?

OurLordisone:
Yep. This is the thing with the News channel they can take a shot of A group of people and then Say that the majority Is like this. They can paint a picture that Is not really soo.

Searching:
There are many injured Iraqi soldiers that are in the military hospitals, lying in beds, side by side with allied military that has also been injured. Have you heard about the execution of civilians by the Iraqi soldiers at the bidding of Saddam? Have you heard about Saddam bombing civilian buildings then blaming on coalition forces? Do you think Saddam started this mess just last week??

OurLordisone:
Yep Saddam is an evil Man. But the U.S states Is not righteous ethier. The funny thing is that it is the U.S who supported Saddam in the war against Iran. The U.s Did the samething with Bin Laden with the Russians.

Searching:
You need to wake up.

OurLordisone:
I am Wide awake. The Reality is that Becuase of this war America will be more despised by the arabic WOlrd.

God bLess
OurLordisone

[Nawbee]

As I prayed about this particular thread, the Lord Lead me to the cross where Jesus said to forgive those who crucified Him because they did not understand what they did.

In this discussion He is looking down now saying the same thing.

Satan has beguiled you in your illusions of what war is really like.

What I deliniated above has happened in this war. I know it has but I have no proof to present here.

I have other sources than just the TV.

Their is no conflict in the Scripture. The "time for war" was, as far as men of God was concerned, in the time before Jesus.

The OT Law no longer applies to us since Jesus. If you will keep the part that allows war, then you must keep it ALL. Since the death of Jesus, all authority is in Him and Him alone.

Yes, there are two systems of Order: One that of the Godly with God at its Head and the other of the ungodly with God still over it but for the present time, allowing them to condemn themselves.

You cannot mix them for darkness has no Communion with Light.

I end my postings here with the same prayer I was Shown: Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do.

[searching]

I hate posting this way, but I have several points to address.

Searching:
OurLordisone, have you been watching CNN? Do you know any
Iraqi people personally?

OurLordisone:
Yep I watch cnn(Cnn can be inaccurate with thier news at times). I also watch other news station. YEs I have friends that are Iraqi. And even though they hate saddam They don't have much loves for the states Ethier. YOu would be suprise of majority of the muslims I know who has nothing good to say about the states. The same news source that you watch even mentions this.

I respond:
CNN is the most accurate news source, and there are no news reports that say otherwise. Also, you claim they don't like the states either, but notice where they are living.


Searching:
Have you heard that Saddam's top officials are making his secret places known to the US? Have you seen Iraqi by the thousands that welcome us and are thankful that we are helping them get rid of the tyrannt that runs their lives?

OurLordisone:
Yep. This is the thing with the News channel they can take a shot of A group of people and then Say that the majority Is like this. They can paint a picture that Is not really soo.

I respond:
Have you seen anything to the contrary? Do you think they are shooting film of the same people every time? There is an Iraqi professor at the college not far from me who has family and friends there. He claims that everyone he knows whats the allied forces to boot Saddam out of there, and he also made the claim that 85-90% of Iraqis want Saddam out. Who do you think is more accurate on their info, him or you?
Another thing that's real strange. There are protesters in the streets of almost every nation....except Iraq.

Searching:
There are many injured Iraqi soldiers that are in the military hospitals, lying in beds, side by side with allied military that has also been injured. Have you heard about the execution of civilians by the Iraqi soldiers at the bidding of Saddam? Have you heard about Saddam bombing civilian buildings then blaming on coalition forces? Do you think Saddam started this mess just last week??

OurLordisone:
Yep Saddam is an evil Man. But the U.S states Is not righteous ethier. The funny thing is that it is the U.S who supported Saddam in the war against Iran. The U.s Did the samething with Bin Laden with the Russians.

Yes, but at the time, these men were no threat, and the US is well known for helping people in need. The Iraqis were in need against Iran, who was more powerful than they are at the time. I do not regret what my country has done in helping others. Haven't you ever been turned on by a "friend"? Did you regret helping them when they turned their back on you?

Iraq didn't ask us to come over and help them, it's the right thing to do. If you don't think so, then next time you need the police, don't call them, just turn the other cheek. Oh, and if your neighbor needs the police, you just go about your own business, they don't need your help anyway.

Me...

[OurLordisone]

Searching:
Iraq didn't ask us to come over and help them, it's the right thing to do. If you don't think so, then next time you need the police, don't call them, just turn the other cheek. Oh, and if your neighbor needs the police, you just go about your own business, they don't need your help anyway.

OurLordisone:
Jesus:
5:38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

If I turn the other cheek I will be only obeying what My Lord and Master has commanded me to do.

God bLEss
OurLordisone

[searching]

Forgive me if I don't believe that you would not call the police to aid your family or neighbor instead of "turning the other cheek" if they were in danger.

I'm outta hereeeeeee...

Me...

[Nawbee]

What harm is there in calling the police?

You don't know a side of a person's argument so you make it up as you go???

To call the police is only to WITNESS to them, is it not?

If someone tries to hurt your children: TAKE THE INSTRUMENT OF HARM AWAY FROM THEM!!!!

Don't shoot them...

There are many avenues of DEFENSE open to Christians! Killing just isn't one of them...

On a CNN today they admitted that they will no longer be allowing Saddam's forces to use human shields. They said that the soldier's lives are no longer to be put at risk...

The truth is out there. But only for those who seek it!!!

[searching]

If someone tries to hurt your children: TAKE THE INSTRUMENT OF HARM AWAY FROM THEM!!!!

Don't shoot them...


Let me ask, did you watch the carnage in downtown Los Angeles about three years ago, when two men had more powerful weapons than the police, and were shooting up LA?? I want to know why you just didn't go there and simply take those weapons away from those men so they wouldn't have been shot to death as they tried to kill police and civilians????

On a CNN today they admitted that they will no longer be allowing Saddam's forces to use human shields. They said that the soldier's lives are no longer to be put at risk...


I have been watching CNN 20 hours a day, this has never been said. For one thing, we have NEVER allowed Saddam to use human shields, so the statement that we will no longer allow his is untrue, as we never allowed him to do this to begin with. For another thing, to make the statement that soldiers lives would no longer be at risk means we would be pulling out of there, not pressing on, continuing to bomb Baghdad.

I encourage you, the next time something is happening in a city near you, if someone is on a murderous rampage, holding people hostage, or is just plain nuts with a gun, PLEASE call the police and tell them you are on your way, because all you have to do is take that weapon away and render them harmless so they don't have to shoot him. If you really believe what you say, this is what you will do from now on, if you haven't been doing it already, and I'm sure you have.

I don't think you are getting the whole picture. However, there is no sense in trying to talk sense into someone how doesn't want sense, therefore I digress...

Me...

Me...

[OurLordisone]

From the world's point of view, the whole picture is to kill other people who are a threat to them.

GOd bLess
OurLordisone

[Oldpreach]

20 hours a day of CNN Sis.??? Im thru with the subject after 5 minutes of radio. I guess we are wired very different. I do agree that this war is the defining moment of our time so far. This is the first invade and conquer war in 60 years for us...its a VERY big deal.

As far as self -defence goes , scripture is clear that defending your self and family is self-preservation. If you have a problem with shooting someone that is coming after your wife adn kids, or an innocent , than you have just that , a problem. Just pass me the ammo on your way by.:angel:

[searching]

Haha, yes, I have CNN on 24/7, even while I sleep. It's on as I am typing right now, it's on when I eat. I'm addicted to it, but the main reason is because CNN is the most accurate news source, and I want to be well informed about what's really going on over there, not just taking someone's word for it. I can see the pictures and film for myself, even what the Iraqis are claiming.

Me...

[Oldpreach]

I dont know if CNN is most accurate or not...i dont have TV/cable. But , i do hear people calling it the Clinton News Network...lol.

I think Fox is supposed to be the more conservative news source. I also think that in todays media , the bigger stories are all broken about the same time anyway. I had fox news as my internet homepage for quite some time. I found it to be the most appealing overall.

If you want it all as staright as it comes usually , then i have one word for it....

Drudge.

www.drudgereport.com

[Nawbee]

To searching:
It is impossible to reason with someone so gripped with fear as you are, so I will not try.

I have taken countless weapons away from more people than I can recount.

I have had guns put to the back of my head and the triggers pulled and they didn't go off.

God Saved me then, He and He alone will save me now.

The NT says that the authorities do not bear their swords in vain. This means that the sinners of this world will be restrained by the sinners of this world. We, as Christians, are not to join with them.

I'm not arguing that it is not necessary for the sinful governments of the world and the worldly system to kill. I am saying as the Lord has Said that it is not for Christians (not OT Jews) to kill: EVER!

The OT Jews were specifically Told by God to kill. This doesn't happen since Christ Jesus.

I have not been Given the spirit of fear. I know that IF I walk up to such as you have described and the Lord Wills it, I will take the weapons from them unharmed. I also know that IF He Wills that I be shot and killed or wounded and crippled for my natural life, that I am Covered in His Blood and am therefore, again, not afraid.

I also know that no one need threaten you at all. You are already slave to your imagination and fear is the cage.

Live or die, I will serve God and if He is glorified with my life then that is well and if He is glorified with my death, that too is well!

God is my only Shield. He is yours as well. The only question is whether you give Him the glory unto your eternal Salvation even if it means the death of your flesh at the hand of another or whether you live in fear and die to be Confined to Eternal fear and Damnation.

That is the real issue, not war.

Continue a slave to your fear or Arise to Life Eternal in Christ Jesus and that Life beginning here and now! It is for you to choose.

These bodies must go into the ground unless they are Converted at the Rapture. Whether that be of old age or whether that be at the hand of an attacker, my only concern is that I be in Christ!

As for what I have said before, I do not lie. I am not mistaken. That is all I can and will say. I know what I heard. I know what they said.

You can maintain your denial only a bit longer. My prayer is that if you do not trust in God to Protect and Provide for you now that you will when these things I have written hit you square in the face and you can no longer avoid the reality of what you promote as Christian.

No one was Commanded of God to join in this fight. I know of Christian brothers and sisters who were prophetically warned by the Spoken Word of God that this war was coming and that they were NOT to become involved in a capacity to put them in any possibility of killing another.

That is all I personally need to know.

You have attacked me and tried to attack my character. I know this is because you cannot deny what the Lord Lead me to print from His Word. I think in your own heart you know this as well.

If you cannot attack what is said, attack the one who says it.

That is not of God.

Do as God Commands you by His Living Holy Ghost! This do in your own personal life and in your service to the country and others and there will be no more confusion.

To that end I defy anyone to state that God has Told them to kill another human being in the New Testament era for any reason.

He has not. This was Given to me and Confirmed by the Word borne by a prophet.

Again, that is all I need.

Get what you need.

[Oldpreach]

Hogwash.

[Nawbee]

To oldpreacher:
Does your unbelief change anything?

And still you have not said God Told you to kill...

I can only witness to what I have seen and heard. Will you now have me beaten? I tell you of a truth that this would change nothing as well.

To all:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We have an High Priest who came to earth and robed Himself in flesh, not to find out how we feel and the extent of the weakness of our flesh, but to SHOW us that He has Known how we feel all along. He has Shown us that even when we fear and fail in even the most vile manner that He is Willing to save us by the Power of His Blood!

He has Shown us that His Mercy not only endures Forever but that it is Renewed every day!

He has Shown us that IF we will confess our sins and fears to Him, He and He alone will Cleanse us of all unrighteousness and Give us the confidence that only comes from the Assurance that He has Made us stronger than things that would conquer us: fear, death, uncertanty, war, rumors of wars, the biting tongues of unbelivers, the failings of our own flesh, our own hearts that condemn us!

IF we stand alone on God, who or what can then stand against us?

THAT is what He has sent me into this forum to prompt those whom He Counts worthy to remember!

Not to tutor in doctrines of war. Only to seek to encourage lost and frightened children to remember how their Father has Comforted and Saved them in the past. And that to recall them to the Safety of His all Encompassing and all Protecting Arms.

Is He a God who will not come and Deliver, both physically and Spiritually and that in this present day?

Is He not a God who Knows you have need of these things?

Is He not a God who is in Control of even the heathen guns?

If He is, then why do you doubt?

Why do you seek your assurance in weapons that are carnal and wielded by the hands of sinful men? I tell you those are only for Retribution. Yes, we Christians are Benefited from this but then all things work together for our good, do they not?

I tell you of a truth that if you continue to place your faith in these things, when the time comes, they will be ALL that you will be able to call upon.

If however you are Given sight to see and ears to hear that God Loves you and will Extend this Love to even Shield you from all that threatens harm and reside in the Mercy He has for His Love of you, then when a thousand fall at your right and a thousand more to your left, you will, having done all to stand: Stand.

[tufluv]

NAWBEE:
You ARE right in that., and as contrary as this may be to most here, I do believe you said it well and succintly. GOD is able to protect HIS own. I applaud your post. :tup: I sincerely agree with those thoughts. I have that FAITH and ASSURANCE in my JESUS, myself., Halleluyah!!
BUT armed with that knowledge and faith, it would be negligent, maybe cruel, of me to go off into attacking those whom do not similarly understand, comprende? :shrug:

Especially in your words against sister Searching, BUT, you have your reasons, I guess., yet a little forgiveness goes a long way, on both sides, we can't all think alike, why start a WAR within the CHURCH!? amongst beloved brethren? :shrug: Promote LOVE not WAR.

Too many forget that our GOD is on our (the Church)'s SIDE!
Let the world go arm themselves against the enemy of this world, we as "saints" are to be on our knees praying for them, doing OUR part, even before all this war stuff. (and yes I know that some of the soldiers ARE saints). Like I said in previous posts back in the archives, people that join the military for various reasons, KNOW that there's a chance they may really have to go to war, its not a surprise, no one is forced to join the military.

I don't think anyone is arguing the obvious point that someone DID have to do something about Sadam (even 12 yrs ago), and those Iraqi's do need deliverance as well, yet, not all of them are grateful, as some have said-what about those suicide bombers, killing lots of our soldier? Soldiers posing as civilians?

Those who don't frequent CNN enough, then have not seen the crowds of Iraqi's shouting hostilities against our armed forces, throwing things at them as they go about the business of liberating them! Some people of the world prefer to remain in both physical and spiritual bondage, :shrug: having known little else, and that is their choice, they are "cave people". I DO feel for the innocent well meaning soldiers, and their families, as I'm sure does JESUS as well.
Only a cold non-hearted animal like Sadam, who has killed his own family even, would not be moved or saddened by this whole war mess, its not a pleasant thing at all. I pray for a speedy and peaceful conclusion to this, although it may be a bit naive of me., I HOPE.

[searching]

What some people may not know is that the news sources here will not show the faces of, nor speak the names of the POW's we have captured, because Saddam listens to our TV, and he will kill the families of those who surrender or are captured alive. He has already killed several of his military men for being inaccurate in their firing of missiles.

And people say we should just turn the other cheek...

Me...

[tufluv]

WHAT gets me, is IF Saddam IS watching our t.v. news programs, why on earth would we publish where our soldiers are at the moment, where they're going to be, our weapons status, etc.etc.? :shrug:

Does anyone have an answer? My husband and I are astonished at the amount of t.v.coverage on so many areas that formerly one would have thought to be top secret information!

Have I missed something here? I've never watched t.v. much, even completely gave it up for about a year, until the 9-11 incident, and now THIS real-life war drama, the t.v. IS on the news program ONLY now constantly when my husband is home, we have stopped having it on anything else, and it IS very interesting info on at all times, along with reports on the continually growing number of our soldier casualties, very grievious!
:cry:

[searching]

Tufluv, they aren't revealing the positions of the soldiers. If they give any info at all, it's vague, and Saddam would already know they are there anyway. The media is not revealing where their bunkers are, nor where the hospitals are located and such. Several times when a reporter comes on, he will state that he cannot say exactly where he is at that time.

Hope this clears that up for ya.

Me...

[tufluv]

Well, what about the MAPS they keep showing, revealing exactly where they are? Hmmm?
As for the reporters, they are always announced beforehand, saying they are here or there. I still think too much info is provided by t.v. media.
I'm sure there are others that may think so as well, but are perhaps not as kind as you as to reply to anything I post, and thats fine too. You are a sweet saint! Thanks for your input.

[searching]

The maps they are showing are vague. The ones I have seen point to areas that are under control, and those that they are at trying to gain control. This is a country about the size of California, with mostly desert but a few cities along the river. Look at a map of California and pick out an area about an hour away from LA that's in the middle of nowhere. Someone can say that's where they are, but can you find them without the specifics? Also, Saddam's men don't dare fly around to look either. All their searching is done on foot, and that's gotta be harsh. I do think the media is doing a good job at keeping many things secret, including the names and faces of the POW's, who are in fear of what their families face if Saddam's henchmen find out they had been caught. Many things are being done to keep people safe, and I think that is more that we are called to do.

Me...

[Thelordisone]

Nawbee & tufluv,

Amen!!

When the Lord sais his angel emcampeth around those that fear him and protect them we dont really believe such.


Also, Nawbee I have heard many testimonies like yours...Praise God!!

TRY and not see CNN or NBC they are a bunch of liberals.

FOX is about the best you can get.

Or if you understand spanish see a Mexican station they are the best yet. They arent on any side.

[Nawbee]

To all:
Yes, God has brought me up from a mightly long way down!

I give Him all the glory and honor!

And yet, it is MY testimony...

Some do not find it easy to bear.

tufluv:
(isn't it) cruel... ...to go off into attacking those whom do not similarly understand, comprende?

Especially in your words against sister Searching, BUT, you have your reasons, I guess., yet a little forgiveness goes a long way.

Me:
My words weren't against Sis. Searching but against her doctrine. Unless you refer to my witness to her treatment of myself?

As for the advice I gave her and those things that wer Revealed to me, I stand wholly by them.

I have a reason: I love her in the Lord and would sacrifice personal gain to see her saved.

No, I certainly don't believe we should all see things exactly alike. In fact, if we did, it would ruin our credibility to the outside world. However, when one speaks of Spiritual things and another speaks of carnal things, it must be made perfectly clear which is which.

As for forgiveness, I am always striving to be as free with that as Jesus has been with me. However, even God in Christ Jesus cannot forgive without repentance.

;)

He can forbear, but not forgive.

I have not sought to start a war in the church for it has already started. I seek only to be Wielded by the Hand of the Master.

As for peace, even in the church, I can only abide in the Words of my Lord:

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

[Nawbee]

Though I take no pleasure in being borne out, especially at this terrible, terrible price of human life, I just saw on Fox News that our troops waved for a vehicle to stop, then fired warning shots. When the truck didn't stop they opened fire on seven women and five children (their count).

I repeat what God Instructed me to say before: Think HARD about what you allow by endorsing this or any war as Christian (as opposed to OT Jewish)...

To all who are willing to repent, God is Ever Willing to Forgive.

He knows your fears. He is the Answer to these, not the weapons of men.

[dabody7]

Nawbee:

Go to Iraq and personally remove all weapons from them and pick up the weapons of mass destruction while you are at it and we can all go to bed.

[dabody7]

not meant to be a sarcastic remark but it is late and I am pretty tired so I kind of feel that you are talking in circles. We have to understand what Jesus was talking about in his teachings. It doesn't always refer to war or violience. It can refer to attitude and behavior. I have followed the war and the one before it in 1991 and I have personally seen videotapes of Saddam's actions against his people but I haven't seen anything that you have posted. We still have the law. Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law. He put the law in our hearts when we received the Holy Ghost otherwise we are free to steal and worship false idols etc... Well, I am just writing off the top of my head and I will leave it at that. Whether you agree or not, I still have to get up in the morning so good night.

[Nawbee]

The Words Spoken by Jesus about war don't refer to war???

And up doesn't mean up and down doesn't mean down, but I wouldn't walk off any cliffs if I were you.

Not meant to be a sarcastic remark???

Why don't you read that again and see if you can come away with anything else?

Fear spurs a liberal tongue...

[drummerboy_dave]

Originally posted by dabody7
Nawbee:

Go to Iraq and personally remove all weapons from them and pick up the weapons of mass destruction while you are at it and we can all go to bed.

Amen!

That would surely be appreciated by many. In fact, it is being done as we speak. Let's go on trusting God!

[searching]

I am sorry that those civilians and children were killed, but who can know who is good and who isn't? Why didn't that woman stop for the military officials? Saddam has killed more of his own people in this war than we have killed of them. Is it really better that we back out of this war? I don't think so. Saddam will continue killing and it will only be worse if we leave now, as he will find the families of those POW's that have surrendered and execute them all. He has already done this in the past two weeks. He is a madman and must be stopped at all costs or it will only get worse.

Saddam has executed some of his own military personnel because they couldn't fire missiles and other weapons accurately. A pregnant woman was hung for waving at US troops. The Fedayeen are using children at human shields, and are not only dressing as civilians, but also as women. The Iraqi military are pulling male children out of their homes, ordering them to fight. If any resistance is met, the whole family is executed. Do you think Saddam just started this madness in the last two weeks??? He has been doing this all along, and has killed over two million of his own people the whole time he has been in power. Turn the other cheek??? I don't think so. Some ask if Jesus would be over there fighting, and I would say yes, if He were just a man like we are. Jesus would NOT have allowed this madness to go on in His day. We cannot turn our cheek and a blind eye to what is going on over there. Can you imagine what we would do if it was going on over here? Do you think you could turn your cheek if this was happening to you and your family? Would you sacrifice your wife and children and other extended family members because you are so against violence? If you say yes, it's because you are unable to put yourself in their shoes and live what they live everyday.

Me...

[dabody7]

Nawbie



One question "How do you turn the other cheek when you are killed?"

Would you turn the other cheek if someone is repeatedly hitting you or would you at least put a hand up to protect yourself and at least put a stop to it? I believe that turning the other cheek means not to retaliate out of hatred or bitterness. When Jesus said turn the other cheek, he said if a brother ..... not a nation.

Let me make another point. We would not be living in America if we had not gone to war to fight for our freedom in 1776. We would still have slaves if Abraham Lincoln had not fought against the Confederacy in the Civil War. Hitler would still be in command and the Jews would still be persecuted and tortured if we had not fought in World War 1 and 2. We would not have equal rights for blacks if Martin Luther King jr and Medgar Evers stood up for them and fought for it. Unless we fight Saddam Hussein, Saddam will continue to oppress the Iraqi people and our national security will still be threatened. Do you want to live in a state of fear every day of your life knowing that one day a terrorist attack is imminent? I trust God and He will take care of me but I also believe that God is behind the U.S. Armed Forces and is using them to protect us.

[Nawbee]

Searching:
I am sorry that those civilians and children were killed, but who can know who is good and who isn't?

Me:
God.

dabody7:
One question "How do you turn the other cheek when you are killed?"

Me:
I'll turn it in Heaven.

God, in His Wisdom, Works even the actions of Satan himself to our good, in the end.

Aren't all your points to defend killing as easily used to defend Satan?

They are.

To Drummerboy:
God hasn't called me to go disarm the Iraqis. If He said for me to go do that, I would go and say to that "mountain": "Be thou cast into the sea."

My advice to you then, would be not to stand between those troops and the sea, with or without your rifle...

For of a Truth, God cannot deny Himself in His Word!

No matter how lowly and vile the man who repeats it is.

[Nawbee]

To searching:
I have lived with and around violence to a degree that I cannot even begin to relate it to you in terms you can understand unless you have been through these things yourself.

You simply cannot IMAGINE what I am talking about.

Yet, in it all, I came to understand that it wasn't my skill and brutality that saved me but the Hand of God was clear to me and others, even then.

Again, the issue isn't war but one of fear. I no longer fear death. God takes care of my family now, He will continue to care for them when (not if) I die.

I would hope that seeing me face even death with faith in God would serve as a Tool in the Hand of the Lord to inspire others, most particularly my family and friends, to trust Him unto the death as well.

As for doing nothing to protect them, that is a lie of Satan. One man who trusts in God can defeat thousands without harming them in any real, physical sense of the word.

All he really needs to do is obey the Leading of God.

I have come out of and brought others out of IMPOSSIBLE situations of violence, both recently (saved) and in the past (unsaved) that violence could not have prevailed against.

I would say then to those who threatened to kill me and others: "You didn't give me this life, you cannot then take it away from me."

God Honored my faith in Him even then in my vile sins! The guns would not go off! Before they could kill me, the police would arrive! Before they could strike me, someone else would clobber them!

And, at other times, I would, according to witnesses, move faster than the eye could see, move things later not movable by twenty men, and still not seriously harm anyone...

THAT is the Glory of God!!!

I only encourage you to accept the possibility of a God who will Love and Protect you in such a manner!

Yes, God uses the government to protect us just as He used Pharoah to harbor the Israelites in the famine and later. I'm just saying to not make the mistake of thinking that just because no one resists His Will and that He Tarries LONG with sinners just to Provide for the Sanctified that He is then making Righteous the sinful governments.

And who can deny the sins of this government? Over a million unborn slain a year!!!

Invading Iraq for oil.

They have had decades to save the Iraqi people and did not. Why then do you accept the lies of Satan as the Gospel?

It's about oil. Oil controlled by the U.S. and used to repay us for "liberating" the Iraqi people.

Pure and simple.

All because we do not have, just as James said nearly two thousand years ago.

It was the Truth of God then. It is the Truth of God now.

[dllong]

I'm here because men and women of the United States military have given their lives for my freedom. I am not here because Sheryl Crowe, Rosie O'Donnell, Martin Sheen, George Clooney, Jane Fonda or Phil Donahue, sacrificed their lives for me. If my memory serves me correctly, it was not movie stars or musicians, but the United States Military who fought on the shores of Iwo Jima, the jungles of Vietnam, and the beaches of Normandy. I say we should support the President of the United States and the U.S. Military and tell the liberal, tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, hippy, tie-dyed liberals to go make their movies and music and whine somewhere else. After all, if they lived in Iraq, they wouldn't be allowed the freedom of speech they're being given here today. Ironically, they would be put to death at the hands of Sadam Husssein or Osama Bin Laden. I want to know how the very people who are against war because of the loss of life, can possibly be the same people who are for abortion? They are the same people who are for animal rights but against the rights of the unborn. The movie stars say they want to go to Iraq and serve as "human shields" for the Iraqis. I say let them buy a one-way ticket and go. No one likes war. I hate war! But the one thing I hate more is the fact that this country has been forced into war-innocent people have lost their lives and there but for the grace of God, it could have been my brother, my wife, or even worse my own son. On December 7, 1941, there are no records of movie stars treading the blazing waters of Pearl Harbor. On September 11, 2001; there are no photos of movie stars standing as "human shields" against the debris and falling bodies descending from the World Trade Center. There were only policemen and firemen underpaid civil servants who gave their all with nothing expected in return. When the USS Cole was bombed, there were no movie stars guarding the ship, where were the human shields then? If America's movie stars want to be human shields, let them shield the gang-ridden streets of Los Angeles, or New York City, let them shield the lives of the children of North Birmingham whose mothers lay them down to sleep on the floor each night to shelter them from stray bullets. If they want to be human shields, I say let them shield the men and women of honesty and integrity who epitomize courage and embody the spirit of freedom by wearing the proud uniforms of the United States Military. Those are the people who have earned and deserve shielding! Throughout the course of history, this country has remained free, not because of movie stars and liberal activists, but because of brave men and women who hated war too. However, they lay down their lives so that we all may live in freedom. After all - "What greater love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friend," or in this case a country. We should give our military honor and acknowledgement and not let their lives be in vain. If you want to see true human shields, walk through Arlington Cemetery. There lie human shields, heroes, and the BRAVE Americans who didn't get on television and talk about being a human shield - they were human shields. I thank God tonight for freedom - - those who bought and paid for it with their lives in the past - - those who will protect it in the present and defend it in the future. America has remained silent too long! God-fearing people have remained silent too long! We must lift our voices united in a humble prayer to God for guidance and the strength and courage to sustain us throughout whatever the future may hold. After the tragic events of Sept. 11th, my then eleven -year-old son(Benjamin) said terrorism is a war against us and them and if you're not one of us, then you're one of them. Let us be of one accord, let us stand proud, and let us be the human shields of prayer, encouragement and support for the President, our troops and their families and our country. May God bless America, the land of the free, the home of the brave and the greatest country on the face of this earth!

Dave

[searching]

Great post Dave, you said it so well.

Me...

[Nawbee]

You have sealed your own fates with th words of your own mouths and the contents of your own hearts.

You are here because God Gave His life to us in Jesus Christ. This nation is here because they have given at least lip service to serving God. Both are here only as long as God sees fit to use this nation to shelter His Elect and to direct the affairs of men to drive them ever onward to the one who comes in his own name.

His children will be Safe whether in this country or standing in its ashes. Those who die in His service will be Safer yet in their deaths.

You rely on men and guns to give you peace. I and those like me will rely only on the Lord for Peace that extends beyond physical death and leaves no room for fear of any kind.

God has Given me this Word: The US will continue only as long as a child of His can exercise the True religion of God unhindered. The moment this is no longer the case, it will be the beginning of the End of not only this nation, but all nations of men.

[ddc101]

bump.............................................. ............................................

[Estrada]

The peace of God surpasses all understanding were going to our grave believing God all the way no matter what mannerism it is that we go. Two wrongs don't make a right we are not to murder & kill for any reason and stephen was stoned to death and the Lord was crucified and they prayed that is the beauty of true christianity to love the Lord our God so much is to obey his word at any cost even if it costs us our life! Thank you Lord

[ddc101]

The peace of God surpasses all understanding were going to our grave believing God all the way no matter what mannerism it is that we go. Two wrongs don't make a right we are not to murder & kill for any reason and stephen was stoned to death and the Lord was crucified and they prayed that is the beauty of true christianity to love the Lord our God so much is to obey his word at any cost even if it costs us our life! Thank you Lord

War is such an awful thing.It steals so much.lv sis.c