CCAM #6: If baptism is essential for salvation,...

[John Atkinson]

If baptism is essential for salvation, then what happens to someone who repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior, walks across the street to get baptized but is killed by a car. Does he go to heaven or hell?

If he goes to heaven, then baptism isn't a requirement is it?
If he goes to hell, then faith in Christ isn't sufficient to save him is it?

[O2blikehim]

Apostolics are not so interested in determining each individuals' eternal fate, God will ultimately judge all with righteous judgment through his Son Jesus Christ. If one were able to make such judgments he would be more than human since we cannot begin to see the condition of mans' heart.

In our teaching and preaching we do emphatically state that full salvation is found only in Jesus Christ. The primary component is true faith in Jesus Christ, which causes us to repent, receive baptism in his name, and receive his Holy Spirit.

God only can and will judge the souls of mankind.

Stephen

[mfblume]

I suspect God sees the intentions. If someone fully intended to be baptized, but physically couldn't, they are saved.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Hypothetical questions are not honest questions. They demand an hypothetical answer.

The Church is not called to answer vain questions, nor indulge in 'old wives tales'. We are called to preach salvation in Jesus' Name.

If ANYONE is called to this Gospel, the Lord will also make a way for the salvation of that soul: "Whosoever shall call upon the NAME of the Lord SHALL BE saved." The Lord will begin His intervention to save as soon as one calls upon His NAME.

If anyone is lost without the Gospel, it is due to their rejection. "Behold, NOW is the accepted time; NOW is the day of salvation." Salvation is not contingent upon when a person DECIDES to be saved, but when the Lord offers to save. Listen to the scriptures: "He that is clean, be clean still...he that is unclean..." It is paramount that ALL avail themselves of the Gospel that brings salvation AS SOON AS IT IS OFFERED.

Brother Villa

[nytxn1971]

Jesus told Peter he would give him the keys to the Kingdom.
Peter gave us those keys in Acts 2:38.

Act 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



True belief will produce a willingness to obey what has been laid out for us by Peter, under the influence and direction of the Holy Ghost, on the day of Pentecost, which is the birthday of the Church.

Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom, but Jesus HIMSELF has the keys to death, hell, and the grave.

We don't judge those that disagree with what the scripture clearly shows us. We only state what it says in the scripture.

[LadyRev]

God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. God would have to judge in the hypothetical situation given above.

[Thelordisone]

"...who is that dies almost believing"

"...now baptism that pertains to this SAVES US!!"

Jesus said, "MY WORD shall judge you in those days!!"

God has spoken lets listen up!!

[Felicity]

Like I've said many times....we've never met anyone that we have worked with personally who has repented of their sin and made a decision to serve the Lord who has rejected baptism in Jesus name. But if they did, then we would have to leave them with the Lord. He is the righteous Judge.

I think that most people who really love God have a sincere desire to obey Him and His Word. But sometimes the WAY that truth is presented to them can turn them off and cause them to turn away -- not so much from the truth -- but from the attitude and spirit it was presented in.

And then there are some people whose minds have been filled with tradition and they use the Matt. 28:19 scripture and say they were Jesus' words and we should obey God over man. In those cases, all we can do is present them with the truth from scripture and then leave them with the Lord.

We've re-baptized many many people in Jesus' name.

We have one guy in our church whose pastor and most of the congregation came to our church to see him re-baptized. Now that was an interesting scenario. :)

[Thelordisone]

I think that most people who really love God have a sincere desire to obey Him and His Word. But sometimes the WAY that truth is presented to them can turn them off and cause them to turn away -- not so much from the truth -- but from the attitude and spirit it was presented in.

Felicity,

I understand what you are saying, BUT there is no excuse!!

Jesus said, "whomsoever listens to you listens to me AND HE who sent me!!"

So, although there may be stumbling blocks and there are I know. The Lord will guide them to the FULL truth regardless of any obstacles.

As someone stated before we cannot judge or condem any but we cannot justify anyone if HIS Word does not.

God Bless!!

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

Maybe IT IS, as someone else said in another thread, 'semantics'.

Beloved, ANYONE who is NOT baptized in Jesus' NAME, or refuses to be, is NOT part of Him. That does not mean that the Lord will not give them time to repent; we must not condemn them. It DOES mean that they are living on borrowed time.
Yes, they are in the hands of the Lord...in as much as they are in the hands of the Church. The Lord will NOT preach to them OUTSIDE of the confines of the Church; or did the Lord not lead Cornelius to send for Peter that peter might preach the Gospel to him? Well, actually the Lord CAN preach to anyone personally: see Saul of Tarsus, who was called to be the apostle to the Gentiles.
Maybe it's just me. I feel there are many in this forum do not really understand the Gospel, thereby defending those whose doctrine does not conform to the Gospel of the Lord. Maybe it's because I (lay it on me personally) seem to condemn those who do not believe as I. Two wrongs really don't make a right.

Brother Villa

[Sandy]

All of this is very interesting Bro. John. Glad you started all of these, as I expect to glean much from what others share here.
:angel:

[Josh]

If baptism is essential for salvation, then what happens to someone who repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior, walks across the street to get baptized but is killed by a car. Does he go to heaven or hell?
______________________________________________

There is a fundamental flaw in the way you asked the question. In a way, the question questions our belief in who our Savior is and how he deals with us. Consider:

The Lord does NOT get any pleasure or glory from our wallowing in sin.
The Lord does NOT get any pleasure or glory from mankind struggling with sin, disease, sickness, etc.
The Lord does NOT get any pleasure or glory from mankind struggling through life and failing in the end.

What He DOES get pleasure and glory from is our obedience to His Word, or struggling through life DEPENDING ON HIM to get us through, and reaching our "goal" in the end. The obedience to His Word is very clear. Repentance, Baptism in Jesus' Name, infilling of the Holy Ghost, living a chaste and holy life (internal and external), etc.

Let me ask a qualifying, clarifying question:

Do you believe that Jesus, who loved us so much He came down to this earth, became one of His creation, died for us (so we wouldn't have to), etc. would actually let someone repent of their sins, and while in the act of being obedient to His Word, going to a place with the very intent of fulfilling His Command to be Baptized, would allow a car to kill him??? If you read Matthew 8 thru Matthew 10, you will see example after example of how Jesus rules over sickness, disease, nature and the elements, hell and sin. If His power is such that he can control the very universe and all that is in it, couldn't He, or wouldn't He protect that person to allow them to fulfill the intent of their heart to be obedient to His Word.

Personally, I have never seen, or heard of someone who had truly repented, die before getting baptized. I have never heard of anyone who ever got baptized in Jesus' Name die before getting the Holy Ghost. How would the Lord get pleasure or glory from cutting short a repentant's desire to fulfill the Almighty's Plan of Salvation??? Is it possible??? Maybe - but if it ever DID happen, it would be according to His Will and therefore, Perfect!!!

The God I serve is NOT following me around with a big hammer waiting for me to "slip up" so He can pound me like a nail.
The God I serve is NOT waiting for me to get close to reaching my "goals" in His service, to "pull the rug out from under me" just before I reach it.

He is my Heavenly Father who nurtures me like His child and protects me, encourages me to obey Him and follow Him, and get pleasure and glory from my successes in doing so.

Does this make sense to you (or am I rambling)???

Josh

[intheblood]

Amen Josh! God would not allow the prodigal son to die on the way home! Unless maybe he was taking his sweet time and kept getting side tracked.
I agree with sis sandy, I like this forum, I am sure to spend many hours here!
Bro. Jimmie

[BroRutledge]

What happens when a train runs over dog... that is on it's way home? Does the dog make it home? He meant to... was going the right way... had every intention...

No matter how much we want the dog to be saved... We may never enjoy being with our best friend again... no matter how much we love it.

I wish I had a nice soft answer for all you people with itching ears.

I am surprised at some of my friends who think you can be saved by good thinking and high hopes... Jesus didn't tell us to mean to make it for the remission of sins and we would be saved.

Hey... if God will take us to heaven because we meant to obey God before we obeyed him... that will be fine with me...

There will be many more of my friends there than I ever thought or imagined. Even my grandpa who died the next day after I preached my heart out to him will be there... Oh Hallelujah... He meant well... Loved this truth very much even fought for it and even told me he wanted the Holy Ghost and would soon give his heart to God... He was on his way to the water on Sunday night.... even told me when he would go to the water... He said it would be soon... but we found him dead in bed the next morning. I truly hope you all are right because I really loved that man.

Why don't we include all the people of the world who meant to get it worked out someday... but died in a plane crash... and also the people in Iraq who meant to be saved but the bomb hit them before they could get to church. If my grandpa made it... so can all others who mean well... God is good... and he will not do something for one that he will not do for all.

Wow...

We will really have lots of sinners in heaven....

HOGWASH..

Repentance and baptism in Jesus name is for the remission of sins...

IF SIN IS NOT GONE... DON'T COUNT ON BEING THERE.

Why are some of my Apostolic friends trying to make excuses for these sinners who did not make it to the water when they were crawling across the desert...?

If they are going to heaven .. so is every prostitute on her way to church, and every murderer dying in the electric chair wishing they could be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Well.. I love you all, and I hope you are right... but if I were a person reading these words.. I would not count on being in Heaven without obeying Acts 2:38. and living for God... Then if you get hit by a train... I have high hopes that possibly I will meet you there... providing that you don't get in a fight on the GNC and start hating me or someone else who does not see it your way or get involved in some other disgraceful sinful act on your way to heaven with all your good intentions.

From what I read in the word of God... there are going to be many that made it to the water and even reached a level of being able to cast out devils in the name of Jesus... spoke in tongues preached and testified about the grace of God...It is sad but many of them will hear the Lord say DEPART FROM ME ... I NEVER KNEW YOU.... If they cannot be there... don't count on the drunk guy that sobered up on his way to be baptized but was run over by a truck....hearing Jesus say Well done. And don't count on those people who got baptized in the titles denying the name being there either.


I am not going to play games with these false god people...

Yes they are going to hell if they don't get sin out of their lives...
No sinner will be there....NONE...not even if they were walking into the water... just before baptism and got eaten by a shark...

If we do not get sin out of our lives before we die we will be lost forever.... I see nothing in the Word of God that gives hope that we will be saved. .....The world is under a curse from God and so are all the people of the world as a result of the sin of Adam. God owes us nothing and if he kills every human right now... and burns us forever we deserve it. We are decendants of Adam and God repented that he even made us.

If God has other plans... he did not share it with us.... So I will preach and teach nothing less and nothing more than he commanded.... REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM IN THE NAME OF JESUS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS... AND THE HOLY GHOST.... LIVING HOLY TILL THE END.... AND CASTING OUT THOSE UNGODLY TRINTY OF PERSONS DEMONIC IDEAS IN THE NAME OF JESUS...

You cannot be saved if you keep serving that false god. no matter how many times you get baptized.

Not just my opinion..

The word of God is backing me.

God bless
BroRutledge

[Sandy]

This is to the moderators,

Are we able to state the reasons scripturally along with our comments on said scriptures as to why we question the fact that baptism is absolutely and unequivocably essential to one not ending up in hell no matter what? Because I thought we was not to do so. So I decided I was not going to say anything anymore. But if this is not the case here in this subject only, then I would like to know so that I could discuss my reasons for questioning this to be true.

[mfblume]

Many consider Circumcision to be parallel to Old Testament water baptism. Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
With that in mind, does anyone have any comments on the following?:Rom 2:25-28 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

[mfblume]

Something to add to the original question....

A man never heard the gospel before, dying in the hospital, and heard and believed. He received the Holy Ghost but the prayer of faith was not healing the man, for whatever reasons, and he wanted to be baptized, but physically could not. What then?

Might it not be so simple as to say the man had no excuse?

Or must we conclude in some cases that only God can judge while we opinionate?

It is true that hypothesis simply is too sandy a foundation to consider.

[intheblood]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BroRutledge
[B]What happens when a train runs over dog... that is on it's way home? Does the dog make it home? He meant to... was going the right way... had every intention...

No matter how much we want the dog to be saved... We may never enjoy being with our best friend again... no matter how much we love it.

I wish I had a nice soft answer for all you people with itching ears.

I am surprised at some of my friends who think you can be saved by good thinking and high hopes... Jesus didn't tell us to mean to make it for the remission of sins and we would be saved.

I guess we should clarify our stances, I say that if they are killed crossing the street, having NOT been baptized, they are toast!
But, it is my belief God would not allow the devil to STOP this person from being baptised if he truly had it in his heart to do so immediatly!
Bro. Jimmie

[Sandy]

Well, Bro. Blume, I will answer the above question with what I believe it means. Does not mean I am correct either. So if not, please tell me what you believe it means.

The first one you quoted from Colossians is speaking of the circumcision of the heart in the Spirit that is done by the Lord, which I believe takes place at baptism in water. Why? Well, for one reason I believe baptism in water to be for ones deliverance from sins as a result of going by faith to be buried in Christ, or in His death according to Rm. chapter 6. Not that we are dead physically, as that scripture says, but that is the final death blow to what the devil put within mankind in the Garden to begin with that keeps mankind in sin within their heart and soul. But then as you know, I do not define the phrase aphesis as meaning forgiveness, but rather freedom, deliverance, remittance or liberty. Because this is where we are truly set free from the bondages of sin. Which is why Jesus said what He did in Mt. 3:15 regarding righteousness, when He led the way for us to follow after Him so that our righteousness could begin. That is the reason that He had to go to John and submit to this baptism to begin with. Not for His own righteousness to begin mind you, but to lead the way for ours to begin instead. And those that are not baptized in His name according to the Word of God, for all that is written therein by faith is not set free.

I believe repentance brings about forgiveness. This is also proven by what John wrote in 1st John 1:9. Otherwise every time we do anything fleshly that is needful for us to repent, in order to be forgiven of that, we would have to be baptized again, if only baptism provided forgiveness of sins.

Now for the second scripture you quoted, the answer, IMHO is answered in that last sentence. The circumcision that Paul was referring to there was physical circumcision of the flesh. Which means that we go about cutting off our own flesh, which is Jesus job, right? Or physically it was speaking of cutting off the flesh from certain parts of the anatomy. But both are a no no.

And this goes back to your teaching regarding our walking in the righteousness of Christ. Because you cannot cut your own flesh off. If we could have, the law would have worked.

And Bro. John or moderators, you still have not answered my question yet. So I hope I have not said anything wrong here that I am not supposed to, so far anyway.

[In His Service]

The Word of God says that his sins where not washed away. Without Baptism in Jesus name, there is no remission of sins. No sinner who should have earlier but didn't will enter and have eternal life.

Sad but so true from the Word of God. Many who lived a sinful life on thier death bed want to do anything to sooth thier tormented soul. I truly believe that if a person was so very serious and wanted to repent with a sincere heart, that God would allow them to be baptized. If he can stop the raging see, open blinded eyes, raise the dead, he can allow something to happen to get someone baptized who is sorrowful for thier sins and not just afraid of hell.

JMBO
Bro. timothy

[BroRutledge]

I have no scripture since the start of the new testiment Church that tells us that a person can be saved any other way other than through repentance, baptism in the name and the Holy Ghost.

I do not see the instructions of Jesus and the apostles to be suggestions, but rather commandments concerning repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus.

The entire Bible is full of scriptures concerning the wrath of God toward those who will not obey him, and about how God deals with sin.

Adam had one plan and he blew it... We are all being punished as a result.

Noah had a plan and obeyed and was saved... along with seven other people, but no matter how many others wanted to get on the boat just before they died and may have finally decided to go there even before the rain started... all were destroyed by the same God that we serve today. They never made it. I have no scripture that says this happened and neither do I have any scripture that tells me how God will deal with those who are on their way to be saved but don't make it in time today.

Jesus has a certain way and his way is always clear and straight, not muddy and full of questions. God teaches that if we try to go up any other way we are the same as thieves and robbers.

The wages of sin is death.

I have no final answer other than the word of God, and the word of God is silent about those who are dying just before baptism...

I have no scripture that gives me information about the last moment efforts to be saved with incomplete obedience at all and neither does anybody else.

We can all have our ideas and it always sounds good to hear the preacher say at the funeral that our loved ones made it...But the only one who has the final answer on this is Jesus.

If the Word of God is silent on it, I simply refuse to believe those who are not silent about it... I will listen to them and love them, and hope with them, but I will still end up sticking with....YOU MUST REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS AND YOU MUST HAVE THAT HOLY GHOST... if you have any plans of being saved.

Without the Spirit of Christ we are none of his... The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ.....

Without sins washed away we are still sinners and sinners are not saved. Sins are washed away as we die out to it in repentance and are buried in the name of Jesus...

I just don't see any other way than the way that Jesus gave us... but I hope for the sake of many that I love who cried out to God just before they passed with all those good intentions that they will be able to make it someway.

If God has a plan for them to be saved without full obiedience according to intentions, I will be glad to learn that he had just kept it secret from us. If I make it to Heaven and learn that I went to extremes on this, I will still be thankful to be there... I have better hopes that I will make it after having fully obeyed that I would have if I almost finished obeying what God commanded.

If I were a person considering giving my heart to God, I would not take a chance... I would do it during an accepted time. Today is the day of salvation and NOW is the accepted time... not the time that you finally decide to give in but waited too long... NOW while you can make it...obey the Lord.


God bless
BroRutledge

[Sandy]

Sorry, you did answer my question in another post already. Just didn't see it until reading today.

[mfblume]

I agree with INTHEBLOOD. God would simply not allow one to pass away if one desired baptism in true faith.

We simply cannot answer hypothetical questions. They are not realistic. If God would not allow one to die in such a case, then it is simply moot to ask a "what if" quetsion like that of the issue.

Sandy, I will try to get back to your note later. Busy today. :)

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!

"...Adam had one plan and he blew it... We are all being punished as a result."

My reading of scriptures tells me that Eve "blew it". Adam gave himself for her, in a typology that Christ gave Himself for the Church. If Jesus is the NEW Adam, we could say that the Church is the 'new' Eve'.

Baptism in Jesus' NAME is FACT! Trying to be saved, or seeking another way to have one's sins remitted is called unrighteousness. Truth is, unrighteousness is any form of faith OUTSIDE of the righteousness of God: "...but they, being IGNORANT of God's righteousness, and going about to establish THEIR OWN righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Church
Shall the Church, then, disregard the righteousness of God because of the "love" we have for a sinner? Shall we love the Lord
LESS than we love the sinners? Or will the Church be in danger of promoting another gospel? Will this not cause us to lose Truth, and be as Esau: who sold his birthright (spiritual) for a bowl of porridge (carnal)?
These are the facts: the testimony of the apostles and prophets. If He established His salvation in the Gospel for the Church, He CANNOT change the message midstream and propose another Goapel for others. Then would the Lord be unrighteous; and he would have proven himself a liar.
Would you have the Lord be a liar so that a sinner could be saved? Then how could the sinner be saved if there is now no Saviour, but a liar?
Hypothetical questions have no place in the Body of Christ.

Brother Villa

[Adoniyah]

Question:
If baptism is essential for salvation, then what happens to someone who repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior, walks across the street to get baptized but is killed by a car. Does he go to heaven or hell?
- If he goes to heaven, then baptism isn't a requirement is it?
- If he goes to hell, then faith in Christ isn't sufficient to save him is it?

Answer:
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

We are all given a space of time to prepare for our long home. Since it is his commandments that all men are to repent, that is to say, obey all of God's commandments to DO HIS WILL we are without excuse should we leave this world unprepared. Sad as it is, millions do it every year

[In His Service]

All are to repent and be baptized, and be filled with the Holy Ghost to prepare for eternity with God.

True repentance from a heart hungry for God will lead them to the next required step, baptism in Jesus Name. Once they obey the second step, then the third step of infilling is a promise. As long as step one and two are done with a pure heart, step three is a gift that will be given.

All three and never just one single step is what it will take for every one born after the cross.

Bro. Timothy

[CRNewton]

Baptism In Jesus Name is as essential as the Red Sea was for passage into the Promise Land, as essential as the Brazen Laver in the Tabernacle where the prisest must wash or die before entering the holy place, as essential as the Pool of Siloam was to the blind man when instructred by Jesus to go wash. Jesus Name baptism in water is essential for salvation, not an option.

[Happy]

A woman at work once said to me "The Bible is full of contradictions". I said "Name one". (Like most people, she was only repeating what she had heard and in fact had no idea whether the Bible contains contradictions or not)

What if a man who has truly repented gets hit by a car on his way to being baptized? Name one such man.

Trying to answer hypothetical situations that people invent to try and bypass any salvation requirements can often be a fruitless exercise. In my experience, they just then try and come with another "what if".

I remember reading a long article where a minister of a certain denomination sought to prove that baptism is not essential for salvation. At least he was honest enough to conclude that baptism IS A COMMANDMENT, yet he STILL argued that it is not essential for salvation.

Why? What is the fruit of such an article? All it does is try to convince people to not obey God's Word. Why would a minister of any church try to convince people to disobey God?

This question has the same fruit - it is trying to use an unreal hypothesis to try and make people comfortable with their spiritual state, and to convince them they don't need to obey God.

I don't want to discuss hypotheticals. I want to talk about JESUS - and the abundant life He has promised you IF YOU OBEY HIS WORD.

[bill]

Bro Villa said,

"Hypothetical questions are not honest questions. They demand an hypothetical answer".

This is exactly my take on the matter.

When asked this totally hypothetical question, I always answer with this question:

If someone was on their way to "receive Christ as their personal saviour" and they got hit by a car crossing the road to the church, are they saved?

As soon as I get an answer to my question, I'll answer their question. So far, I haven't gotten one yet. :D

I think also, we need to realize that even Jesus Himself didn't answer some of the Pharisees questions because He knew their wicked heart of sin and how they were trying to find ways to trick him with their silly questions. Sometimes wisdom dictates that we don't answer these types of questions, that are simply designed to stump people or put doubt in their mind.

Growing up, my youth pastor (who had his liscence with the upci) asked me this question, in an attempt to prove his false doctrine or perhaps put some doubt in my mind. Thankfully, Bible Quizzing instilled in me enough scripture that I answered his question with, "I can only tell you what the Bible says". It was only a few years later that he left the apostolic movement entirely and now goes to a large charismatic (trinitarian) church in the St louis area. How sad that he left the faith.

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Hnovilla
His NAME is Jesus!

Hypothetical questions are not honest questions. They demand an hypothetical answer.

The Church is not called to answer vain questions, nor indulge in 'old wives tales'. We are called to preach salvation in Jesus' Name.

If ANYONE is called to this Gospel, the Lord will also make a way for the salvation of that soul: "Whosoever shall call upon the NAME of the Lord SHALL BE saved." The Lord will begin His intervention to save as soon as one calls upon His NAME.

If anyone is lost without the Gospel, it is due to their rejection. "Behold, NOW is the accepted time; NOW is the day of salvation." Salvation is not contingent upon when a person DECIDES to be saved, but when the Lord offers to save. Listen to the scriptures: "He that is clean, be clean still...he that is unclean..." It is paramount that ALL avail themselves of the Gospel that brings salvation AS SOON AS IT IS OFFERED.

Brother Villa

Amen, Bro. Villa!

Two things to consider.

1.) "For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law: and as many as sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;...For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew works of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (Romans 2:12, 14-15)

2.) The thief on the cross. He wasn't judged by the Law; he wasn't forgiven by the Gospel.

God is going to take to heaven whoever He wants and condenm whoever He wants. He knows the intents and thoughts of the heart. IF such a person really exists as posed in the original question, then I believe that God would take him to heaven.

But I do not believe such a person really exists, unless there is a servant of God who puts off baptizing until the one in question is killed.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men."

I believe that anyone who is really hungry for God and for salvation, God will grant ample opportunity to complete the steps for salvation. Otherwise, God will judge based upon the light given to the individual and the individual's response to the light that they were given.

"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men"

[Adoniyah]

The question was:

"If someone was on their way to "receive Christ as their personal saviour" and they got hit by a car crossing the road to the church, are they saved?"

Of course they were saved.....scroll down










Think you've got me huh? Temptation too great....:D

There was no mention of them being killed or even hurt.

Even if they were knocked down; in their desire to obey the Word of God, they got up, brushed themselves off and went straight to the baptistry. :)

But if they were killed, since we are dealing with hypotheticals, let us dream on a while.

So, they were killed instantly. The following is what happened in this scenario.

They are met by Jesus after death. Jesus would say, "I see that you were on your way to be baptized in my name. Tell you what I'm going to do. I am going to give your natural life back to you, heal all of your broken bones and take away all pain and not even let there be a scuff mark on your new shoes. So go back and be baptized and live a long live winning souls for me. By the way, when you see Sister Strange, tell her how lucky she is. :)"

The truth is, you can dream up every kind of scenario thinkable to man, but there is one fact that remains. Every man is given a chance for salvation. If it is squandered, whether he lives long or short, he is going to have to meet God unprepaired in whatever condiiton that he was in at death.

[mfblume]

Sandy,

Since you disagree that Aphesis means both remission and forgiveness, then there is no discussion there from the start, so let's go onto the second issue.

And you said, Now for the second scripture you quoted, the answer, IMHO is answered in that last sentence. The circumcision that Paul was referring to there was physical circumcision of the flesh. Which means that we go about cutting off our own flesh, which is Jesus job, right? Or physically it was speaking of cutting off the flesh from certain parts of the anatomy. But both are a no no. I do not think Paul was saying it is a no-no for the jews to be cirucmcised. He was speaking as though law was still in effect, although it was not, and reasoned with Jews about the purpose of circumcision back then.

While under Law, jews were to know that their lives must correspond with their circumcision. A true Jew was one who was circumcised in heart to correspond with their physical circumcision. Otherwise, why be circumcised? Since Circumcision was a sign of adherence to Law, why be circumcised if one is going to ignore faithful obedience to law?

And this comes out when one reads the context from chapter 1 through 3. Chapter 1 shows how gentiles are lost. Chapter 2 shows how Jews are also lost, since they are not keeping law, and especially since some are hypocrites who do not even try to keep law. And this is where the context of circumcision comes into play. Why be circumcised if the heart refuses to be right? I do not think it is downplaying circumcision of the flesh, but indicating it corresponded under law to that of the heart as well.

[bill]

Adoniyah-you are so silly! :) But we know that God is able to raise somebody up.

Just this past week, Bro Teklemarian (sp?) was at our church. He told of a baptist lady who died, after being witnessed to by some apostolics over there in Ethiopia. This lady died, but during her funeral she came back to life, and got out of the coffin! This is what happened. She went to heaven, and Jesus looked at her and said, "look here to my right and to my left, do you see any other god beside me?" Jesus then told her, "Go get baptised in my Name and get filled with the Holy Ghost or you can't enter heaven again."

Jesus then sent her down, and this lady would not sit down until they baptised her in Jesus Name. According to her, she said there was an angel of the Lord present there to ensure she obey the Word of God.

Sound unbelievable? Perhaps, but I believe tis a true story.

[Adoniyah]

See what I mean???

I believe that it is a true story also.

Did the lady have a message for Siister Strange? :D

[bill]

She had a message for BRO Strange, she said Jesus told you to mind your wife. :D

And he had a message for Bro Blume too:

Flee preterism! :D


:banana: :banana: :banana:

[mfblume]

How can that be? Bro Tekl is partial preterist! :D

[bill]

:) Well, I guess the message was for HIM too.

[mfblume]

Oops. I thought you said the message was given by Bro Tekl.

Actually Tekl is very dispensational, and not partial preterist.

[ezekiel]

AMEN,BRO. RUTLEDGE:

My Pastor just delivered a similar message to the entire congregation, Sunday, about the Church being tried 1st and just because, weve been baptized in Jesus Name, Filled withe the Holy Ghost and Spoke in Tongues till the Cows came home, sat in the same pew every sunday morn. doesn't mean a sure ticket to heaven. Good Intentions don't fullfill the Great Commission either we are commanded to reach the Lost not just fill space in a Pew on Sunday Morning and Sunday evening.

Well theirs my two cents worth
God Bless

[Sandy]

You are right Bro. Blume.

Actually I worded that part all wrong.

[drummerboy_dave]

"Accepting Jesus as our savior", is the biggest flaw of "modern Christianity" today. The real issue at hand, is having Jesus accept us.

The bible plainly says, "...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This is the only way to find remission of sin, which is to say, salvation

[Sandy]

Bro. Blume,

I also need to add that if you are saying I didn't believe aphesis meant remission, that is not true, as I do.

The only thing I have ever said is that IMHO it does not mean forgiveness.

And the reason I say this is there is some difference in the meanings of these words in the English language.

For example one can be forgiven or pardoned of something, yet still be in bondage to what that one is forgiven for, not yet having gone into remission yet, that one still being in bondage to it, because of needing to be delivered,or set free by the Lord in this case. Coming to that conclusion because of looking up the meanings of these phrases in the dictionary after finding them in Strongs concordance. People that are not in Christ yet, are still in bondage to sins within I believe. And if thier being set free is a pre-requisite for salvation, then so be it. I am not going to say anymore than that.

But know this. I or we preach this message so that one will be set free to fully come into the righteousness of Christ, receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost if they have not already. But also knowing that many have already received the promise before being set free from the bondages of sin as well. Yet, I do not believe that anyone receives the Holy Ghost unless and until they have repented. At least I have never heard of anyone doing so before anyway. But plenty are in bondge to sin within I believe, needing to be set free. Some will and some won't. Have seen it both ways unfortunately.

when you are baptized into or in the name of Jesus Christ I believe that ones old man is then put to death and buried in Him then, so that the New Man, Christ can begin to take over within us totally, for the purpose of putting the flesh under as we are filled with him, walking after the Spirit and not the flesh daily.

but anyway, my main point, is I do believe aphesis means remittance in Acts 2:38, but not forgiveness or pardon.

[Sandy]

I would also like to add I believe aphesis means remittance, freedom, deliverance and liberty, but does not mean forgiveness and pardon after reading the scriptures regarding this issue that pertain to baptism and hopefully rightly dividing because of the others as I compared the scriptures regarding the two issues. I already gave the one in 1st John 1:9; 2nd Cor. 7:9-10; Hebr. 6:1-2; Lk. 11:32, and of course there are more. But the ones that speak of repentance only appear to be speaking of forgiveness within the context as I see it.

But those that speak of baptism seems to be talking about a type of deliverance because of being placed in Christ, such as what Jesus said when leading the way for us to follow after Him once one has truly repented in Mt. 3:15; and of course what is written describing a baptism in Rm 6:3-7, which speaks of some kind of baptism of death for us; plus what is written in Col. 3:9-12 or more. Yes, that does say specifically "buried with him in baptism.
But it also speaks of being in Him to recieve the same thing He walked in, in verse 9, which lines up with what is written in Rm. 6:3-7 regarding what is to take place at this baptism, which is our deliverance or as the KJV puts it, remittance, which can also mean stopping of sins as a result of obeying this command. Meaning that one is set free from the bondages man was born with to begin with. Rm. 6:3 says nothing about repentance therein whatsoever, but talks about these things taking place at a baptism period.

Now the Trinitarians twist that into meaning repentance only, calling repentance a type of baptism. But the scriptures are very clear elsewhere that this could not be speaking of repentance because it always clearly says repentance when it is talking about baptism of repentance, whereas when it is talking about what is received at water baptism it always puts this as "baptism" only, or else it puts it as being baptized in the name of the Lord in some way, or baptized into, which I believe is speaking of the same as in the name. And if this is correct, clearly this is talking about water baptism and nothing else.

Then IMHO to tell the difference between when the scriptures are speaking of the baptism in the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, it is written just as that, or else stated as being filled with the Spirit instead. This being the wording used to distinguish Holy Ghost baptism from when it is speaking of water baptism.

I also concluded that Rm. 6:3-7 is not speaking of Holy Ghost baptism at all because it is talking about, as Pastor Blume has so aptly put it many times, and emptying out of something mostly, and not necessarily the filling up of anything. But says nothing about repentance anywhere, which the Trinitarians try to say it does, meaning they are simply putting words that are not there to begin with, and need to see it too, adding to the scriptures.

That is also why most of them do not really believe in a true walk of righteousness to begin with. That is unless they are just repeating what the Word says is available to them. But just sit down and ask any one of them to consider if they are truly walking in it to begin with. Especially those that have been supposedly delivered for many years, and should no longer be babies. That is if the Lord leads you to. As I am about bringing them into this fullness, not making them angry. Although sometimes they will get very angry anyway. And even turn on you in a vengeance. But that is only because they have been convicted of the fact that they just could be wrong, and that ole fleshly pride rises up, along with that ole natures help as well. Because everyone of us has pride in our flesh as a result of the fall, needful to be put under by the Spirit. But they also have the old nature within helping it rise up as well, because of still being in bondage to him.

And that is what I believe the Lord has revealed to me scripturally and otherwise. Of course, I realize that I could be wrong about anything, but so could any of us here too. Because we may be in Christ, but we are not "The Christ" at all. Each and every one of us are just a small puny part of His body on this earth. Some are even the part that is uncomely. :-) And then there are those that are the comely ones. Yet we need them all.

[Thelordisone]

Originally posted by drummerboy_dave
"Accepting Jesus as our savior", is the biggest flaw of "modern Christianity" today. The real issue at hand, is having Jesus accept us.

The bible plainly says, "...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This is the only way to find remission of sin, which is to say, salvation

Very Good Point!!

[Sandy]

I agree to what you have stated in your above post Bro. villa. Which is what Jesus said according to Mt. 7:23 anyway. Which is also why I do not know anyone by their gifts. Not even the ministry gifts. After all, that one could be a Judas.

[mfblume]

Sandy said I also need to add that if you are saying I didn't believe aphesis meant remission, that is not true, as I do.

The only thing I have ever said is that IMHO it does not mean forgiveness.

And the reason I say this is there is some difference in the meanings of these words in the English language.
I understand your point, and responded before with that in mind.

Aphesis does mean both forgiveness and remission because it is translated as both words in the KJV. I showed where it was transalted FORGIVENESS in another post. So it has to mean "forgiveness". Let me repeat those cases where it is actually written as "forgiveness".

Note: Each of the greek terms for forgiveness in these verses, is APHESIS.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness (APHESIS), but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness (APHESIS) of sins.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness (APHESIS) of sins:

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness (APHESIS) of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness (APHESIS) of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness (APHESIS) of sins:

Change of words is not really an issue here if APHESIS is translated as both forgiveness and remission in the KJV.

[Sandy]

Brother Blume,
Yes, aphesis would also mean forgiveness just as the concordance says it does in English. Because there are several english words that translate from that one Greek word. But brother, that does not mean aphesis has to mean identically the same thing as all of those words in our language, unless the meanings of everyone of them are identical. And they are not entirely identical in meaning. Do you see what I am saying. That is the reason we need to figure out which one it is speaking of when the meanings are not entirely identical. And MIke, IMHO we do that by comparing the meaning to other scriptures that speak of the same thing. Which in this case is baptism in water.

I know I am getting really technical about the meaning. But it might just be important. It is sometimes. Depending on whether you are sharing with someone that has repented and been filled with the Spirit or not. And to be honest, I just do not see God baptizing anyone with the Spirit that He has not forgiven of sin at the very least as well.

But I know this is not regular Oneness doctrine either. And heaven forbid that any of that might just be off even a little, especially concerning this issue.

[In His Service]

Sandy,
If forgiveness of ones sins comes only at repentance, as you are saying, then what is the reason for baptism? Just an outward show as many denominations speak of? A public profession? It would seem that only repentance and one saying they spoke in tongues would be all that you see as needed, if not please correct me.

One does not try to figure out what the Word of God says to fit someone's situation, but we see that it takes all three elements, repentance- which is a turning away from our sins, baptism to wash our sins away or remit them, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Bro. Timothy

[nytxn1971]

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

It's pretty clear to me.

[mfblume]

Hi Sandy,

I only responded to your flat statement saying The only thing I have ever said is that IMHO it does not mean forgiveness. It looked as though you forgot APHESIS is translated to mean forgiveness in some cases in the KJV.

Anyway, you are correct that perhaps there is more calrification required in true oneness understanding.

[Sandy]

IHS, Bro. Blume and whoever,

IHS: No that is not what I am saying at all. I am simply saying that baptism in water is for the purpose of our being delivered because of the old man being remitted into Christ when we are baptized into Him. Which I believe is what Rm. 6:3-7 is saying. this is a baptism of our death, not our physical death, but the death of our old nature. I believe that old nature remains within mankinds soul, keeping them in bondage to sin until that one goes to the water and this is put to death and buried in Christ.

And that is why I say it doesn't necessarily mean water baptism is for forgiveness.

To whoever: that is also why the old man of sin remains within the temple of God, seated their ruling over that one that is in bondage, which 2nd Thess. chapter 2 speaks of, the temple of God being us according to 1st Cor. 3:16. It is also the reason that true righteousness cannot begin until this baptism in water takes place either. Which is what Jesus was saying essentially in Mt. 3:15. It is also why Peter said we could not have that good conscience too, because you cannot as long as that old man or sin nature or spirit of antichrist or whatever the heck you want to call that thing that resides alive and well in every human being born after the first Adam that causes that one to be born into sin in the first place.

I sometimes wonder what some think this was that caused sin within mankind anyway. A Nothing????

So anyone that has not been baptized into Jesus Christ at the water has this residing in their temple, within the soul by the way, even though Christ is within their spirits. They are still in bondage to sin. Prove me wrong and I will accept it. Prove that God does not forgive sin when you repent of it, asking His forgiveness even.

1.Repentance is for us to begin in justification,
2.baptism in His name if for us to begin in sanctification,
3.and the baptism in the Holy Ghost is for us to begin to be glorified because of what He does from that day forth within us.

Don't like that I break it down that way. Well neither does the Trinitarian either.

Rm. 6:3-7 says nadda about anything but a baptism period. It is not written as more than one either. And there is nadda that says anything whatsoever that this has to do with repentance either. It is for the death and burial of the old man as we are put into Christ period. That is why it says what it does in verse 7.

And if you believe I am the only one that believes this, you are very mistaken too.

Now if this is all required to be saved, then so be that too. I am not saying it isn't.

What I am saying is that I do not know everything. But neither am I going to believe something because it is the popular thing to do because the majority says it is true. Not unless God reveals it to me. And to be honest, I have sought him many times about the [purpose for baptism compared to repentance especially, because this is where I do not agree with Oneness doctrine, and what happens He keeps giving me these scriptures that says no, I am on the right track. And I have to go with God first all the way. Just like Bro. Blume and his preterrism he believes because he believes this is something God has revealed to him.

And yes, Nytxn, I have looked at that verse too you just quoted. But your sins are not washed away as long as you are in bondage to sin as a result of the old man of sin being seated within you is it? Because you will continue to fall down constantly needing to come back and repent again and again until the Lord sets you free from this at the water. And even then we have that doggone flesh that is a result of the old man to still be put to death too.

But true, that would appear to be saying I was wrong, until you think about it as well as see the rest I am also saying.

Nor am I trying to say one is saved without it either. I am simply saying what I believe baptism to be for period. Nothing more nothing less.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jeus!

"Father forgive them; they know not what they do."

If we were forgiven BEFORE we were baptized, then there is no need for baptism...UNLESS the scriptures teach something else!
They do indeed teach us that baptism is for the REMISSION of sins in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 does NOT teach that Saul of Tarsus was to call upon His NAME; the one who preaches is the same one who calls upon the NAME. He is also the one to actually 'baptize' the person who has repented.
There is no scriptural evidence for anyone baptizing themselves. This would be synonymous with a 'deathbed' repentance.
A person who believes he can 'baptize himself' has denied the Ministry and the Church which the Lord has established. Did the Lord not say: [I]"He that recieves you, receives ME."?

Sister Sandy, you are on the right track.

Brother Villa

[Sandy]

thankyou Bro. Villa. I really do appreciate you saying that.

[BroRutledge]

Repentance without baptism is not enough, and baptism without repentance is incomplete. Repent AND be baptized....

The AND is important.

At least it seems that way to me. We need to repent AND be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins and we also need the Holy Ghost before we can testify that we have been born of the water and of the Spirit.

Anything short of repentance, baptism, and the Spirit is less than complete.

Repentance without baptism is like death with no burial.

Baptism without repentance is like being buried with no death.

Receiving the Holy Ghost without baptism gives us a The Spirit of Truth that will take us into full obediance. If we receive the Spirit and fail to follow through on the rest of the command we have stopped short of what God has made available to us through mercy and grace.

If we do not follow the Spirit that we have received we are not his children. That that are led of the Spirit of God are the children of God, and the Spirit would never lead us to ignore the instructions that came from God.

In order to say that we have been baptized once, we need to see to it that we have followed the instructions of Acts 2:38.

Many seem to believe that you can receive the Holy Ghost without repenting. I do not see that. Those who appear to be speaking in tongues but will not love God enough to obey him by repenting and being baptized in his name are no more than a tinkling cymbal or a sounding brass...

Speaking in tongues without love profits nothing. If we will not love and obey God after speaking in tongues, we have nothing.

If we can speak in tongues and not repent or find a desire to be baptized in the name of Jesus... we should cast those devils that are lying to us out in the name of Jesus and tell them to take their jibber jabber with them.

God has an utterance that is real for those who will be real with God.

God bless
BroRutledge

[Sandy]

Baptism without repentance is what the Catholics try to do. I agree. It won't work.

Jesus said in Lk. 3, repeating it again in verse 5, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Something to think about though. If God puts your old man to death when you repent, which is basically Oneness doctrine that most have been taught, basing this on the death, burial and resurrection of christ, yet doesn't forgive you of your sins first until you are baptized, isn't that a bit turned around? In other words, this is saying you are delivered before you are forgiven.

[mfblume]

After considering this more carefully, I would say, Sister Sandy, that the old man dies at both repentance and baptism, not one or the other.

[nytxn1971]

It dies at repentence. It's buried at baptism.


If you aren't dead, there's no reason to bury you...

[In His Service]

At repentance God is not putting us to death, WE are!! We are laying our old man down and wanting it to be taken away. We are desiring to turn away from what our old man was, to be able to walk in a newness of life.

It is up to us if we have the old man die out or not. Christ willingly went to the cross, so we must willing give ourselves in the same way.

Bro. Timothy

[nytxn1971]

Amen to that IHS.

[mfblume]

Ron,

Why, then, does Romans 6:3 say that we are baptized "INTO HIS DEATH"?

I am thinking that it is both dying and burial that is involved. A death is not merely a burial.

We do not repent into his death. And although nothing is stated about repentance in context of Romans 6, we read that baptism is also crucifying the old man with Christ.

[CRNewton]

God knew one of the fallacies of man was his problem of seeing things as a whole. The Bible's teaching of the body is a good example because it shows how man can focus on one member of the body and fail to see the complete body, "if all were an ear, where is the seeing?" What is being taught is that somethings MUST be viewed as a whole. Same problem arises with men when they start dissecting Acts 2:38. Yes, there are 3 different parts, but no single part can be considered a whole. It takes all three before it becomes a complete remedy for sin and salvation of the soul. Debate forever over a single part but no one can be COMPLETE in salvation until the WHOLE of Acts 2:38 is obeyed and received. Those that teach a "lesser" Acts 2:38 experience are in error.

[Alesaggio]

As in all equations, one integral does not make all the sum by itself. A simple, 2 plus 3 equals 5, for example, the 2 is a necessary part of the SUM of 5 but is not the sum itself, this is also true for the 3. Most any person can answer the question: 2 plus WHAT NUMBER equals 5? With 3 being the answer. Same thing is true with remission of sins and basic salvation. Repentance and Jesus Name baptism PLUS what equals remission of sins? The answer is: Holy Ghost baptism. Repentance and Holy Ghost baptism PLUS what equals remission of sins? The answer, this time, is "Baptism in Jesus' Name." And any way you form the equation to reach the SUM of remission of sins is ALWAYS a combination of Repentance, Water baptism in Jesus Name and the Holy Ghost baptism.

[FreeNd]

Amen to the equation!

The reason some become confused is because "remission of sins" is mentioned after "in the Name of Jesus Christ." I believe it is placed there not because the repentance and Jesus Name baptism is all that is necessary but because the first two, repentance and water baptism, are the parts that must be done BY man, and the third (Holy Ghost baptism) is a complete act of God in the formula. In other words obey and receive, but it takes all 3 elements to remit sins and to accomplish the New Birth.

[Sandy]

OK, but what happens at each by faith and trusting in God to do what is promised by Him, while completing that whole? Which is what I was talking about anyway. And in this case the subject is mainly baptism in water I assumed. Although I could be wrong about my assumption.

Or do you believe it unimportant that we understand this to begin with?

[CRNewton]

What happens? The same thing that happens when you just have the 2 and not the 3, your minus the sum. The sum is what one is tring to accomplish not just a portion of the sum so if you want the New Birth you must have a completed equation. Simple.

[In His Service]

Bro. Blume,

An answer for the question to Bro. Ron.

I see it as the death of our old will, with a desire to be replaced by His will. The Repentance begins the dying process and we further that process as we obey the command to be baptized in Jesus name. As we obey we further lay down our old life, and willingly allow the process of the death to complete as we are submerged in the Water. It is as if we have then willing allowed the water to drowned the old man, knowing that a new life will await us.

Jesus sees our hearts desire for the old man to be gone and sweeps those old sins away as far as the east is from the west. He rewards our desire to be his Child and have a new name appled along with the Lambs blood to our hearts and lifes, with the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Bro. Timothy

[In His Service]

Sandy,

The answer to your question is this. Submission to God through our faith. No single part makes one saved, but the sum of the whole equation, as spoken of, gets us in the door. No single part makes us the key to open the door. When we repent we are walking toward the door, when we are baptized after we repent, puts the keys in our hand. When we are filled with the Holy Ghost, the door is unlocked because we used the correct sections of the key together.

Bro. Timothy

[CRNewton]

Right, its like a combination lock that requires 3 different numbers to be reached before it opens. Just because you dial a 3 and stop does not open the lock, nor if you dial a 3 and a 6 it still does not open until all three numbers are entered.

[Sandy]

CRN. what would happen to us if we did not obey and receive the whole was not really my question whatsoever. My answer to everyone concerning that was "OK".

I asked if it was important to know and understand what God does when we obey each individually.

Bro. Tim, I see Repentance being more of a decision of death rather than the death of the old man actually taking place itself.
So if this is what you are saying then I agree. I was not entirely sure.

Bro. Blume, Jesus destroys the old nature all at once, not a little at a time I do not believe. Which is why it says it is dead in Rm. 6:7. Not the flesh mind you, but the old man that brought forth sinful flesh within all men to begin with.

[CRNewton]

Its only important if one stops short of all three. If one tries to be "saved" w/o the full equation they are in error. Just as some that try to teach that repentace is a "finished" work. Incorrect and false doctrine. Certain things happen at each step but nothing happens as to complete salvation (New Birth) until all are accomplished.

[Sandy]

Bro. tim,

I agree with that. As you are using the example of the temple somewhat anyway, I gather.

Many are in the outer court wandering around.

Makes me wander sometimes what I am doing here. :D

[In His Service]

Dear Sandy,
What is it you feel God does at repentance? I feel that he listens to us as we show our sorrow at our sins and sees a desire for something different begin to take place.

He then watches to see if we are willing to submit to his instructions and be baptized in his name. If we do, then he will wash away our sins, and a new person begins to come forth from the water.

Bro. Timothy

[Sandy]

I do believe that those that have truly repented are forgiven of their sins by the Lord. But I believe one has not truly repented until they have made the decision in their heart and mind to go all the way with the Lord in that obedience according to what Jesus said in Mt. 10:38-39 basically. And those that have made that kind of a commitment will indeed be baptized in Jesus name for the right reasons once they are given the truth, God opening their eyes and ears of understanding. But that is not for me to say how when and where this will happen either. As I may tell another, sowing the Word in their heart to begin with, while another may come along and have their part in reaping the harvest as a result of my sowing. I never give up on anyone unless the Lord shows me to do so without a shadow of a doubt. I also believe we need to be in tune with the Spirit when He does have us sharing with others too.

But I also believe the Lord left it up to those that know the truth to be sent out by the leaership, going and sharing it with others, because while I don't doubt that God can speak to someone themselves, it still requires a preacher, meaning a disciple to share this with them as well. At least it seems that way according to Rm. 10:14-15. So it is up to us to get the Word of God out there on the street. But I do not believe that one is delivered from sin, as a result of the old man being put into Christ until they are baptized. I think I pretty well explained how I see the difference in someone being forgiven compared to being delivered. But Jesus came to do both.

[DPerdue]

Forgiveness cannot be complete until remission and NO one has sins remitted just at repentance. Repentance is the mind set and heart desire to do turn from ones sins, then the Holy Ghost baptism and Baptism in Jesus Name is ESSENTIAL to REMIT sins. Nothing short of this will ever remit sins.

[In His Service]

Bro. Perdue,
Correct, forgiveness can not be full forgiveness until the penalty for is made of none effect. This can only happen when ones sins are remitted, made to be gone, and that happens only after one is baptized in Jesus name for the remission of thier sins and the deliverance from the penalty they deserved for thier sins.

This is no forgiveness for a sinner until thier is a remission of what they have repented about. They said they where sorry and wouldn't do it again, after they where baptized God said, "Ok, It is now forgiven and forgotten"!

Bro. Timothy

[Sandy]

True, but what is it saying to remit sins. Is it saying that one is forgiven then, or is it saying that one has now been delivered from sin as a result of what caused that one to be a sinner is now remitted in Christ?

I don't agree that it is speaking of forgiveness, but rather remittance of the old man that caused the sin to begin with now being dead and buried in Christ. I believe this because of taking into account other scriptures that describe this baptism, as well as taking into consideration other scriptures that deal with the subject of repentance as well, and what is received as a result.

Do you believe if you fall away as a result of obeying the flesh rather than the Spirit that you can repent now and be forgiven?

[CRNewton]

What it is saying is that there is no remission without the complete plan of remission. Its so plain.

[Sandy]

I know what it says CRN. It says your sins are remitted when you are baptized into Jesus Christ. My point was not that it does not say that, but what it is speaking of when it does.

And yes, It is plain.

[mfblume]

Bro. Blume,

I see it as the death of our old will, with a desire to be replaced by His will. I agree, but that is not the "death" that that the bible teaches we must experience in death, burial and resurrection. It is an actual death that sin in our lives deserves. The soul that sins shall die. And that is not a death of will.

Romans 6:6 clarifies the death we are intended to know. The old man is CRUCIFIED with Him.

It is death, period. And this is the death we ought to consider, because Christ did not die in will on the cross. He died in will in the Garden, if anywhere. But when we state death, burial and resurrection, we are speaking about the death of the cross, whcih is not really involving will.
The Repentance begins the dying process and we further that process as we obey the command to be baptized in Jesus name. As we obey we further lay down our old life, and willingly allow the process of the death to complete as we are submerged in the Water. It is as if we have then willing allowed the water to drowned the old man, knowing that a new life will await us.Again that is not the real issue. The death that really concerns us is "death". And that is actual death. And I am saying hthat God does not see actual death until repentance and baptism occur, and that is the death that we are baptized into, not "repented" into.

God actually considers me DEAD.

We really cannot break up the totality of the whole.

One is not truly saved until all three are involved. Even if one repents and is Spirit filled, before water baptism, one still needs baptism. I did not say repentance and baptism remits sins. Peter did.

And if one is Repented and water baptized, one still needs the Spirit.

Examples of both these scenarios are found in Scripture.

Anyway, DEATH is not accomplished with repentance alone. And if death in "will" alone is the issue at repentance, that is not part of the "death" that is meant by death, burial and resurrection, from the cross onward.

If death in will is so stresed an issue, as you suppose, then there is the will-submission in the Garden, the death on the cross, the burial in the tomb and the resurrection from the tomb. But such a thing is not noted in that way in the Gospel.

So we cannot say death is repentance, burial is baptism and resurrection is Spirit baptism, because some people get the Holy Ghost before they are baptized. Can a person be resurrected from the grave before they are buried?

[Sandy]

Bro. Blume,

You said, "the soul that sins dies". That is scripture I think, but could you tell me where it is? It caught my attention because I believe that is where the Lord revealed to me the old man resides rather than in mans spirit. Will try to explain why I believe that later if you want.

[nytxn1971]

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

[Felicity]

1. If repentance is only death then why do so many people experience so much joy and are set free immediately from sinful habits and lifestyle?

2. Why - if it is just death do people experience spiritual transformation? They can now understand spiritual things and they have a desire for spiritual things.

3. Why can such dramatic change come where they are now experiencing living for and walking with God if repentance and turning to God is only death.

4. Scripture says that if you believe and confess Jesus Christ than you are His. How can you be His and be walking in light and truth if you are still dead in tresspass and sin?

5. You are either a child of light or a child of darkness. How can you be a child of darkness (dead) when you are walking in light and truth?

[bill]

Felicity, the Samaritians experienced joy also when they believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God (Acts 8:5-8), yet they were not saved. Baptism in Jesus Name is where spiritual circumcision takes place. It was the eighth day that the male child was circumcised and that is also where he received his father's name. (Luke 1:59) We receive our Father's name by baptism.

Baptism in Jesus Name puts us in the covenant of Abraham (Gal 3:27-29). Taking on our Father's Name is what gives us His righteousness. It is here, at baptism in Jesus Name, that righteousness is imputed to us, by faith.

Baptism is not a "work". If it is, then so is repentance. Both are acts of faith. When you believe, you will repent and be baptised and the Spirit is promised. When the Spirit of God comes, that testifies that we are the children of God (Rom 8:16).

Romans 10:9-10 says that whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Calling on the Name of the Lord is more than an audible confession, it is done in baptism.

Acts 22:16
And now arise and be baptised and wash away thy sins calling on the Name of the Lord.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

There are three witnesses, the blood, the water, and the Spirit (I John 5:7) and these three agree in one, namely that we are the children of God.

Felicity said this, "Scripture says that if you believe and confess Jesus Christ than you are His."

Scripture says that if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Romans 8:9).

John wrote, that we know we are His because of the Spirit which He has given us (I John 4:13).

The Spirit bore witness at the Lord's baptism that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, and the Spirit still is bearing witness, when we speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. There are three witnesses! :)

I Peter 3:20-21 refers to the Ark of God as the O.T. witness to baptism.

The word "ark" in the hebrew means "coffin"! Check it out!

Noah was under the influence of that old ungodly generation until the day that the water came and washed them all away.

You gotta get in the coffin in Jesus Name for your sins to be remitted! :) Paul said, "buried with Him in baptism...". What an awesome revelation!

Peter said, "baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (I Peter 3:21) It is not the water that saves, it is our faith in work of Christ on the cross and in the resurrection that saves us. Baptism is an act of faith.

It is true that many experience joy when they repent, however, there is greater joy once you're in the covenant and have the Spirit baptism, both that bear witness that you are a child of God.

I would challenge any trinitarian or oneness, to give me one single verse, where the apostles led somebody in a sinners prayer and afterwards told them they were saved. :)

Be blessed

[Sandy]

Bro. Bill wrote:
I would challenge any trinitarian or oneness, to give me one single verse, where the apostles led somebody in a sinners prayer and afterwards told them they were saved.

Actually Bro. I don't know of anywhere where they said specifically that anyone was saved after they have repented, been baptized, and received the Holy Ghost either. Because to make such an announcement would be to say that the doctrine of OSAS is true. And it is not. In fact, according to what Paul wrote in Philippians chapter 3 we are not "saved" until the end.

Repentance and baptism only brought the promise that that one would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It was not the promise of salvation itself. If so, where does it say it is?

Sometimes I get the idea that some here do not realize they are just a small minute little peice of the body, and nobody is the head.

[bill]

Sandy,

We are saved, and at the same time we are being saved. I am as saved right now as I'll ever be. At the same time, sanctification is progressive.

Read my lips, I AM SAVED. :) Maybe you're not, but I am. Just joking with ya! :) Really though, we do not have to fear. So long as we stick close by the captain of our salvation we will be saved. For Jesus said "NO MAN is able to pluck them out of my hand." He is able to keep those whom the Father gave Him. We can be eternally secure in His Love that He will never let us get too far without his grace and mercy drawing us back to Him.

Sandy, I would say that after you're born again, it's a lot harder to be lost than it is to be saved. Grace and Mercy will follow us and God will lead backslidders down a miserable path in order to bring them back to the foot of Calvary. Only a person can be lost if they continue down the road of hard heartedness, obstinance and resistance to the Holy Ghost.

But I see your point in "whosoever endures until the end, the same shall be saved." This is of course speaking to saints and not sinners. But I am saved right now. Saved from hell's fire, saved from my old sins, and saved from the power of the enemy. HIS righteousness has been imputed to me and I am as righteouss and holy as the O.T. saints themselves. For we have been grafted into the THE vine whose Name is JESUS.

Be blessed

[John Atkinson]

BIG RED ADMIN NOTE: I want this to stand as a public warning. The stand of the ministry is that you are not saved unless you have obeyed acts 2:38 in it's entirety.

If people get happy at repentance it is a note from God that they done good, now go the rest of the way. No one is saved at repentance.

What you are suggesting here is that repentance is salvation. Stop it. The next time I have to mention this you won't be welcome here anymore.

The foundation and basis for this board is the common ground of Acts 2:38. We don't care what people believe in order for them to post here, but if they post that you can be saved any other way that full obedience to Acts 2:38, then they can no longer post here.

[bill]

We ARE currently and presently saved.

I CO 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

PLEASE NOTE: "which are saved".

I CO 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

This verse from I CO 15 sums it up. We ARE saved right now by the gospel, unless we don't keep the faith. "IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you...".

2 Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Eph 2:5,8 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Paul referred to those who ARE (*current...presently*) saved by grace through faith.

2 Tim 1:8-9 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

"Who HATH (past tense) saved us..."

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

"he saved (*past tense*) us."

In the same sense, we "will be" saved.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We shall be saved from wrath. This "wrath" refers to the future wrath upon the ungodly, as described in II Thes. 1:8-9.

Thus, we shall be saved because we are already saved by the gospel. Paul said that we are saved by his blood and this saving saves us from the future wrath.

But we strive to enter in for we know that we have to endure unto the end or we will not be saved in the end. Confused yet??? :)

Be blessed

[FreeNd]

Actually the blood was not applied (poured out) until the High Priest reached the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant within the Holiest of Holies. At the Brazen Altar the blood is shed and is collected in a basin by the High Priest, at the Brazen Laver the Blood is still in the basin as the High Priest washes at the Laver, he then proceeds into the Holy Place (still carrying the blood) where the Candlestick, Table of Shewbread and the Altar of Incense is located, then he, still carrying the blood, approaches the Mercy Seat and pours out the blood between the cherbuim. Only Then is the blood truly "applied." That's why repentance, water baptism in Jesus Name AND the infilling of the Holy Ghost are ESSENTIALS!

Acts 2:38 is so simple! Do it and do it ALL!
Anything less is false doctrine.

[Sandy]

Thankyou Bro. John for you patience and kindness.

Just want you to know I do know the rules. And so if you kick me off, I will also know why too. But I myself am here to stay for now anyway, unless you do delete me off. And if you ever see fit to do so, know this, I will understand, and love you anyway and pray for you and GNC to bear much fruit.

[CRNewton]

Bill I like your comments! The Acts 2:38 formula is clearly evident in many types and shadows in the OT. CLEAR it is!

Bill said:

The word "ark" in the hebrew means "coffin"! Check it out!

Noah was under the influence of that old ungodly generation until the day that the water came and washed them all away.

You gotta get in the coffin in Jesus Name for your sins to be remitted! Paul said, "buried with Him in baptism...". What an awesome revelation!

Peter said, "baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (I Peter 3:21) It is not the water that saves, it is our faith in work of Christ on the cross and in the resurrection that saves us. Baptism is an act of faith.

It is true that many experience joy when they repent, however, there is greater joy once you're in the covenant and have the Spirit baptism, both that bear witness that you are a child of God.

I would challenge any trinitarian or oneness, to give me one single verse, where the apostles led somebody in a sinners prayer and afterwards told them they were saved.

Amen to that!

[Sandy]

Ah, thanks for that definition of the ark CRN.

Now I know why the Lord spoke to me just before I was baptized the last time, "It is time, time to get into the Ark".

Bro. bill,

Yes I know what you are saying. We were saved, were are saved today, and we are being saved yet.

But it isn't past tense yet, but rather still within the promise written in Acts 2:21.

"Shall be saved." As long as we continue on, now calling on Him to bring forth His righteousness within us until the end, amen.

[Felicity]

I was only asking as part of the ongoing discussion about repentance and death. Not to make any kind of doctrinal statement.

Thanks to those who replied to my questions. :) Good points were made.

[barbara]

acts 2-38 is the requierd method of salvation.if someone dies after repentance and dosent get the rest of the plan fullfilled,he will be lost .because the bible says,that without the spirit your none of his rom8-9.and this is apart of the plan of salvation,faith without works is dead.james 20-2 its harsh but .also the bible says that we CAN NOT even SEE the kingdom.we must be born again of the spirit and of water.john3-3

[Sandy]

I agree Barbara. Nobody that is not born again is able to even see that they are able thru Christ to walk in righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost just as it says in Rm. 14:17. And therefore, they are also unable to enter into that walk either. Probably because you have to see it first to enter in.

[AnointedByHim]

I believe these verses of scripture sums it up:

John 3:3 - 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

[Faithchild]

I believe that Jesus is a Fair and Just God. He will know the intent of the person who was killed in the process of obeying Acts 2:38. Otherwise he will be held accountable for all the time he had to obey and didn't before he was killed.

Hypotheticals are a bogus waste of time.

[bill]

I would just like to say that our approach to the message is just as important as the message itself. We have to "market" it. This is the greatest thing the world has ever seen or heard. We have to show it for what it is. When people see the beauty of this wonderful message and when it is presented with the annointing of the Holy Ghost, in love and compassion, people will respond positively to it.

[intheblood]

Amen Bro. Bill! Who's gonna want to come to your church if you are always telling them about how their present life, or their present church doctrines are gonna send them straight to Hell?
If we witness like this: Repent, be baptized in Jesus name and recieve the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues as the spirit gives the utterance, or burn in Hell buddy! They will probably run away, know what I mean.
But I know that NooBody from the GNC would do THAAT! LOL

Bro. Jimmie

[barbara]

who said we were wittnessing to them in the first place .the quetion was if they need to be baptized????? we just answerd the ?????we win them by telling them the truth ,not letting them believe a lie.when i first found out that i was lied to by the old faith i was upset that they didnt tell me the truth ,the whole truth .and was gald to get the truth .releived even.jmo

[bill]

Intheblood,

Amen. There is nobody on this board that is more adamant about Acts 2:38 than me, but I know that you have to meet people where they are at and lead them to a deeper understanding of the Truth. Look at the way Priscilla and Acquilla lead Apollos. The method of presenting the Truth is just as important as the Truth itself.

[bill]

And, some people need to be spoon fed, one revelation at a time. I'm teaching this couple right now, I found them through door knocking, they are going to our mother church and they are very hungry for God. But I'm teaching them little by little. Precept upon precept. It might be a year before they get the understand of how important the Name is, but it will come. Timing is so important, this is where the true heart of a soul winner will come in. Patience and love go a long way.

[Donny Cage]

Again, this was part of my letter to CARM..

6. If baptism is essential for salvation, then what happens to someone who repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior, walks across the street to get baptized but is killed by a car. Does He go to heaven or hell?

This is a hypothetical question, but a very fair question.

Some branches of your theology teach that one must make a public profession of faith in order to be saved (Romans 10:9,10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Romans+10%3A9)). What if he gets hit by a car before then?

First we have to look at the nature of God. He is a just God. And when He judges, He judges righteously (Revelation 16:5,6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Revelation+16%3A5)). Even your theology teaches that one must repent and "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior...." to be saved. Well what happens to babies? I think we would both agree that babies can't possibly repent, nor accept anything. They don't have a concept of sin, or a concept of where they are for that matter. I think we would both agree and the Bible agrees that God Judges children righteously and will go to heaven. Jesus said, "the kingdom of heaven belongs to little one's such as these" - even though He was teaching a lesson of humility and humbleness, we get the picture that children will go to heaven.

Having said that we know God's nature, and He judges righteously.

What about full grown people with understanding?
God does not contradict His word. In order to be a saved, one bust be born again(John 3:3-6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+3%3A3-6)). God has never changed that, it has stayed the same since the first day someone was born again.

If Jesus said "unless you repent you will likewise perish" then no matter what else you try to do, no matter what other way you try to be saved, if you don't repent, you will perish.

Baptism is not an option. Jesus said, "unless a man is born of the water (hudatos) and of the Spirit He cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+3%3A5)) By the way, water (hudatos), in that verse, literally means water. Jesus did not use hidden language in this passage. He said what He said and meant what He said. Examples of people obeying this are in Acts 2:38-40 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+2%3A38-40);8:14-17;10:44-48;19:2-7) example given by Jesus in Mat 3:16,17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mat+3%3A16)
1Peter 3:21 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Peter+3%3A21) tells us that baptism saves us. (Which means that baptism is a part of the salvation process) Jesus was abundantly clear that it was a part of the salvation plan in Mark 16:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mark+16%3A16) "He who believes AND is baptized shall be saved"

And I am very aware of your vain attempt to try and trivialize these passages. The fact is they are there, and they say what they say.

Baptism is a part of the born again process and the apostles knew this and administered it throughout the book of acts.
Baptism was so important that Paul had the jailors baptized at 12:00 at night (Acts 16:33 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+16%3A33)) (it couldn't wait till morning).
Baptism was so important that after Philip witnessed to the eunuch, the very first thing that the eunuch wanted to do was get baptized (Acts 8:36 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+8%3A36)) (obviously that was a part of the witness that Philip preached about).
Baptism in Jesus' name was so important that Paul had the Ephesians RE BAPTIZED because they were not yet baptized in Jesus' name (Acts 19:2-7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+19%3A2-7)).
Baptism is so important the first words out of Peter's mouth (after the people asked "what shall be do?") were "Repent and be baptized..." (Acts 2:38 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+2%3A38)) (The people clearly acknowledging that they had to DO Something.) And they did it.
Baptism is so important that the very first action that Peter commanded the gentiles to do after they received the Holy Spirit (was to get baptized) (Acts 10:44-48 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+10%3A44-48)) Why? Because baptism (of the water) is a part of the salvational plan (John 3:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=John+3%3A5) water AND Spirit). You cannot be saved without being baptized. If you deny this you are blind to scripture and call Jesus Christ a liar.

Not only is Baptism important, it is a must. As Jesus put it, "It is fitting (necessary) to fulfill all righteousness"(Mat 3:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mat+3%3A10))

If Jesus was baptized (and He knew no sin) then what makes you think that you (a sinner) don't have to get baptized for the remission of sins? Are you above Jesus? Are you above sin? Do you know something that none of the apostles knew? If you deny that baptism is a part of the salvational plan from God, then you deny the very pages of scripture and trivialize the importance of baptism by demoting it to the level of "an outward sign of your inward faith" - nowhere is that taught in scripture.

So what happens to a man that walks across the street to get baptized but gets killed.

First I would ask, how long this person knew he had to get baptized and refused? If we can't answer that then...

I would call to the attention of God's nature. His word says, (Deut 4:29 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Deut+4%3A29))"From there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all of your heart and with all of your soul....He will not forsake you nor destroy you,. Nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them"
Even though this passage is in the old testament, and referring to the children of Israel, it reveals God's very nature in relation to those who are seeking Him. Based on this scripture and various others, I would contend that if someone was to walk across the street to get baptized, God would not allow Him to be killed. So I would say that that hypothetical situation would never happen.

But what about you? I have shown you in scripture that one must be baptized, and that baptism is a part of the born again process. You have the opportunity right now to be baptized in Jesus' name. Will you refuse the opportunity God has given you? If so I would say that you are not seeking God with all of your heart, and I would say that you would not fall under the same category as our unlucky, hypothetical friend.

[coadie]

The courts are packed with cases.

Could a
Should have
Would have.

What about the witnessing opportunity you missed? Worry about that more than someone elses. If I commanded the baptism requirement, their blood is not on my hands.

[BOBJAMES]

...and if the person did get hit by a car and smashed adn died, then he wasn't fully repentant and not a believer anyway.
AND HE IS IN HELL THEN.

If my God can extend mercy to otehrs and extend their lives, he is able to keep them till they cross a street and get baptized, just as he is able to allow men to die who come to church and deny him and say I will wait till the next time or when I am older and then they die and go into eternity unsaved.

BOB JAMES
I think God knows and God does care about us and isn't playing some mind game of OOOOH! i WILL GET THIS WHEN JUST BEFORE THEY GO UNDER WATER AND MAKE EVERYONE THINK WELL WERE THEY SAVED OR NOT.

[Donny Cage]

This statement is known to Biblical scholars as bad hermeneutics.

Hermeneutics means to translate or to interpret. When applying this term to the area of theology, we are referring to that means whereby we apply particular, objective principles of interpretation so as to understand the Bible correctly.

In Biblical hermeneutics, there is a rule that is not considered by many Oneness, which is called the priority of didactic. The rule in brief states: All historical narratives are to be interpreted by the didactic or teaching portions of Scripture. Didactic passages are those that are specifically meant to teach theological truth. The Book of Acts is not didactic.

The book of Acts is a historical narrative of the New Testament church. The main purpose of Acts is not to teach doctrinal truth, but rather to give a brief history of the workings of the apostles and the first century church. This doesn’t mean that the book of Acts doesn’t teach us, but it was never meant to be used to create doctrines.

By making the statement above is a violation of this bibical hermenutic rule.

(notes taken from Ed Dalcour)

Michael, the book of Acts, as you should know is a historical account of the early church. We see Jesus preaching the kingdom of God and the path of salvation, and giving commands... and we see the church carrying out these commands, and we see how the original church carried out the plan of salvation, taught by Jesus (John 3:3-5). We see it all throughout the book of Acts.

Jesus gave the command, they carried out the command.

If you want to see how people were saved under the new covenant, you look to the book of Acts, where it is recorded. The epistles were written to churches for doctrine, and correction. Let me repeat that. The epistles were written to CHURCHES for doctrine and correction. If you want to see examples of people being saved under the new covenant, you look to the book of Acts. Reading the epistles (which were written to a church, or someone in the church), before you are saved is similar to reading someone else's mail.

It's been said before, that protestants think they are doing the long jump in the olympics... they take off running in the Gospels, jump over the book of Acts, then land on Romans 10:9... Never once, acknowledging how the early church carried out the new covenant plan of salvation, as described by Jesus in John 3:3-5

[Donny Cage]

I rest my case. You have confirmed what I said.

[Donny Cage]

Actually Donny if you read what I wrote it refuted what you said.

I read what you said, and you confirmed what I stated. (you didn't refute anything)

Jesus spoke of the new covenant plan of salvation, and instead of looking to the one book that shows the early church obeying this... what do you do? You do exactly what I said, you jump right over the book of acts and land in Romans. (Romans was a letter written to the CHURCH). If you want to see examples of people being born again, you look to the book of Acts.

[Donny Cage]

Donny, do you not listen. The Book of Acts is not didactic in nature, it was never meant to build doctrine on. Romans on the other hand was meant to build doctrine. Acts needs to be interpreted by the didactic portion of scriptures.

The book of Romans was written before the book of Acts. Romans was written in the spring of 57 and Acts possible after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Some scholars place Acts at AD 93 because it is believed that Luke used Josephus work. The more accurate date would be AD 63. Either way, the book of Romans was written first, so it is you that is jumping over Romans to Acts and then back.

The book of Acts is a historical account of the original church. If you want to find believers obeying the new testament plan of salvation (according to John 3:3-5), you look in the book of Acts for examples (there are PLENTY). If you look to the epistles, you are reading letters written to churches that have already been born again.

Again, if you want to find examples of people obeying the plan of salvation as described by Jesus in John 3:3-5, you look to the book of Acts.

[Donny Cage]

What does John 3 in context tell you what Donny? What did Jesus tell
Nicodemus in the entire context of John 3? Did Jesus tell his that he needed to be baptized, or did Jesus said that whoever believes in him will have eternal life?

You keep saying the book of Acts is a historical account, but I don't think you are comprehending the concept of historical narrative and didactic.



You should follow the very important rule called the priority of didactic. From what Im gathering, you didn't know about the rule until now.




And you should follow a proper rule, called, "Follow what the original church taught". If you want to read examples of people following the plan of salvation as describe in John 3:3-5, you look to the book of Acts. There are plenty of examples.

[FullyApostolic]

For those who believe one can be saved without the waters of baptism, why then did Jesus say in Matthew 3:15, "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him." Those who say salvation can be achieved without baptism are not preaching a real salvation, but a deception from the enemy, leading souls to the Lake of Fire. They are preaching a lying and false doctrine.

Unfortunately, my home church will baptize you in Jesus name, but do not believe such is necessary for salvation. This is the same church that I was baptized in some 13 years ago. I think this is a sad sitaution. Repentance must have works following, and this is where remission of sins through the waters of baptism takes place. You are either save by Jesus name baptism, or on your way to the Lake of Fire.

As pertaining to the first question, that person is lost. They had their entire life to be baptized, and continued denying the faith. They had repented, but it was too late. God knws the very date we all will die. This person had all this time, and did not follow or accept the Bible. They ahd no excuse and are lost.

[coadie]

Jesus commanded that

Acts 2:47

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

How do people claim to have remmission of sins take place?

Why do people jump over Jesus' direct order to find Ephesians and a vers that proclaims faith?

The passover was explicit on the Blood on the door.

My sins are dealt with explicitly when I am baptized for remission of sins and they are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

[coadie]

1Jo 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.


The only way for sins to be washed away is by the "blood." It was the death on the cross that saves you. Please note that John said the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin. Water is not mentioned because it does not wash anything away, it is symbolic.

Isn't the Word "walk" an action word?

How does that clash with your opposition to works for salvation?

You say faith, no ,more and no less and then you share a verse about walking in the light.

In Acts 22:16 Paul was told to arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Do you say The Lord had Paul told the wrong plan of salvation?

Acts seems to really get in your way.

[Donny Cage]

1Jo 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.


The only way for sins to be washed away is by the "blood." It was the death on the cross that saves you. Please note that John said the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin. Water is not mentioned because it does not wash anything away, it is symbolic.

It's because Jesus died, that we can be saved. If we want to be saved, we are to follow the new testament plan of salvation. Unless a man is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Period.

[Donny Cage]

being born again is done by the Spirit, not by baptism in water.

see John 3:8

Jesus said what born again was (John 3:3-6), and this was carried out by the original church, as seen in the Book of Acts. And yes, "born again" does include water baptism.

[coadie]

You oppose water baptism

Why?

[Donny Cage]

please show one scirpture where being baptize in water means "born again."

Baptism in water does not mean "born again". Baptism of water is a PART of the born again process. And we see examples of people carrying this plan of salvation out, all throughout the book of Acts.

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


born (gennao = born/begotten) again (anothen = from above)

"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..." This thought was begotten (conceived) by God

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Those who received him, believing in His NAME, were begotten of God.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed...by the WORD of God, which lives and abides forever." The seed that has been planted in us, will also bring fruit to life everlasting.

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will NEVER pass away." If one rejects the "incorruptible seed", it just returns to the ONE who offered it.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit." The seed that was conceived to give me a natural birth, was of the flesh (natural); but that seed that was conceived in me to give me eternal life, was by the Holy Spirit.

The "born again" (Jn. 3:3) experience did not "save' me; it gave me the ability to "see" the kingdom of God and either receive it or reject it.
Because I received (believed) the kingdom, I was also "...born of water and of the Spirit..."

Brother Villa

[luvmyfamily]

His NAME is Jesus!


born (gennao = born/begotten) again (anothen = from above)

"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..." This thought was begotten (conceived) by God

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Those who received him, believing in His NAME, were begotten of God.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed...by the WORD of God, which lives and abides forever." The seed that has been planted in us, will also bring fruit to life everlasting.

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will NEVER pass away." If one rejects the "incorruptible seed", it just returns to the ONE who offered it.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit." The seed that was conceived to give me a natural birth, was of the flesh (natural); but that seed that was conceived in me to give me eternal life, was by the Holy Spirit.

The "born again" (Jn. 3:3) experience did not "save' me; it gave me the ability to "see" the kingdom of God and either receive it or reject it.
Because I received (believed) the kingdom, I was also "...born of water and of the Spirit..."

Brother Villa

This is a very interesting post...but I am not sure what it is exactly supposed to mean...? Jesus said, you must be born again to see the kingdom of God, it did not say that once you were born again you could either recieve it or reject it. By being born again, means you have already chosen to believe and recieve Him, and let Him have control over your life.

[tdj]

Jesus himself said that if you don't get baptized you will miss the Kingdom of God. And he also said in the very same verse that if you don't repent you will also miss the kingdom of God. He also mentioned the "comforter" coming to help his people. There were many things he said people would have to do if they expected to enter the kingdom of heaven. Another thing he said to do was to visit prison inmates, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc... He said if you don't do these things he will tell you that he never knew you and send you to hell. If one reads the words by Jesus, then it is obvious that works do indeed matter to him. I know several people who go to church, shout, dance, and did the acts 2:38 thing to the t, but haven't helped one homeless person, or visited one single inmate, or went to nursing homes or hospitals; nothing at all. Yet they think they are saved?!?!?

[Hnovilla]

His NAME is Jesus!


luvmyfamily:
"Jesus said, you must be born again to see the kingdom of God, it did not say that once you were born again you could either recieve it or reject it. By being born again, means you have already chosen to believe and recieve Him, and let Him have control over your life."


The "born again" experience is NOT, as is commonly preached, a salvation experience. It is an invitation to "see" (BELIEVE and OBEY) the Gospel. When the Israelites came to the edge of the Jordan River, they did not enter in "...because of their unbelief..." They SAW the promised land and even tasted of its fruit, which the twelve spies brought with them. But the Israelites died in the wildernes, and only their offspring entered to the kingdom
Jesus said, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER IN..." That is exactly what the offsprings of those who were led out of Egypt did: they entered in. So you see, Beloved, there is an entering INTO the kingdom of God. How do we enter into the kingdom of God? Easy as pie: "He that believes AND is baptized SHALL BE saved." So we enter in by BELIEF, BAPTISM, SALVATION
The Apostle Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, said the very same thing: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remissions of your sins, and you SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Since a man cannot repent without beliving, it still remains: BELIEF, BAPTISM, SALVATION.

Brother Villa

[luvmyfamily]

Ok, let's see...

John 3:3 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
vs.4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
vs.5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
vs.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Hmmm, interesting, particularly after I looked up the Greek. Here "see" and "enter" have very separate meanings. I thought they were synonomous...I am sure most think that.

I also looked up the word "water" here...it said water as pertains to rainy or rainshower, literally or figuratively. Anyone who says that this "water" pertains to natural birth waters would be taking this out of context. I for one never got that impression anytime I read these verses. Jesus wanted to make Himself quite clear here.

I may have to clear my head quite a lot more than I thought, to understand scripture in the Spirit's light rather than a bunch of preacher's teachings. Because you are actually quite right, regarding the commonly preached thing. Being born again is equalled to actual salvation...now I need to go do some more reading in scripture, and see if it really does say that or infer that anywhere.